SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Very Well written Post...

This:

Thankfully, I seem to have finally gotten it. My X? Never will. He will always be chasing something that does not exist.

And that, I accept. (It happens to have been the hardest thing to accept. It was hard, because it meant we stood no chance, and it was hard because...well, it hurt to see someone self-destruct.)

is what I was thinking of when I read your post...

The REALITY is what I have right now!

My FANTASY is what I perceived of our marriage...

It's still so confusing and complex...

[This message edited by brokenandfedup at 1:07 PM, November 22nd (Tuesday)]

Fantasy insists that I will never find anyone else who wants to raise my daughter and grow old with me, so I have to stick it out.

Reality says run. I'm not running. And I don't plan on it.

So I'm pretty sure I'm not accepting reality. Not sure what do do with that.

But the thing is that reality doesn't tell you that you will find someone who wants to raise your daughter and grow old with you. Could that be part of the reason why you are not running?

Signed,

Girl who should run but currently isn't because she is starting to figure her ducks will never align the way she hopes them to be before exiting.

[This message edited by icbtih8 at 1:36 PM, November 22nd (Tuesday)]

What I am growing increasingly confused about is the die hard investment placed in rendering the term fantasy as not applicable to what a WS experiences

That's not at all what I was saying. In fact I said for some it very much is. I was clear this is MY perception only and my views on the often used word that not only doesn't fit for some but covers some very real issues when it's dismissed as such.

I found little in books, experts, IC that truly addressed affairs, FOR ME. It was packages neatly wrapped. Need for validation, FOO, poor boundaries, poor coping skills. Yes, those are pieces. The whole thought process of an affair from the thoughts to the actions didn't fit for me. My thoughts come from what I saw from myself and some others through my eyes.

It's like the word Love and what it means.  Holy shit. You get countless responses stated as fact from different people. One thing I do know about love is despite the embroidery worthy sentiments many view as love in reality many use it as a blank check...an unlimited credit card and are stunned when authorization is denied after they ran up an incredible debt "charging" on it, but that's another thread.

Point is everyone has different views and I gave mine. I don't believe in The Fog, either. Doesn't make it not real. Makes it not real for me.

As far as discouraging discussion, I'd never do that. Pointless is a valid description for many discussions which are really more arguments masking as civility. Rarely is someone going to win someone over.  Posts work, for the most part because they resonate with some and tie to an established belief. My hope is to offer a perpective that might prove helpful. As someone that has experienced both sides and have concluded different things than others have I offered an "other". Some can relate to that other nicely. Others, not at all. As you can see from responses on this thread alone. Some are "what the fuck?", others are "yep".

Helpme, I'm a little taken back by the 2x4 comment. I have posted on your threads that I recall clearly your posts and how you viewed your spouse, marriage, the OP and your thought processes very recently. I was surprised at the about face. I'm glad you're healing and hope you continue. I thought that statement was out of line and I don't often think that here.

That's not at all what I was saying. In fact I said for some it very much is. I was clear this is MY perception only and my views on the often used word that not only doesn't fit for some but covers some very real issues when it's dismissed as such.

I misunderstood then. The second paragraph of your original post felt very strongly weighed in the other direction when I read it. When you said this:

How good are you at accepting reality? I read on here and online articles that affairs are fantasy. I don't believe that at all. Fantasy is the act of imagining things that are impossible or improbable. That's the part that always gets me. It's not imagining. It's acting. You are "really" breaking your vows, "really" fucking someone else (PA's), "really" betraying your vows and your spouse and the resulting pain for all is quite real. So where's the fantasy?

I can see the part where you quantify it as your belief; I felt compelled to dispute that with my own belief. It went from saying affairs are fantasy, to saying what fantasy really is and I got stuck on it. I didn't see a shift in the talking point until about page 3 or so.

Also, while I agree with this statement:

Pointless is a valid description for many discussions which are really more arguments masking as civility. Rarely is someone going to win someone over.

FWIW I agree with you here, but it was not the context of the statement about arguing this being pointless; it wasn't pointless because nobody is going to win anybody over, it's pointless because the effects are real. My point is that yes the effects are real, but arguing about the fantasy elements of an affair is no more pointless than arguing about the value of potential in an affair in that same regard.

I don't expect to win you over to anything, since I agree with just about everything else you're saying. I do want to make sure what I am saying and what I am referring to is not misunderstood.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 1:37 PM, November 22nd (Tuesday)]

which is why I think what I am describing as 'real' and 'fantasy' is being met with so much opposition. What I meant was that I consider anything that is really done as 'real'. A 'fantasy' to me is more of the THOUGHT of something. Not the action

I'm with you on the reality of actions, but it seems a contradiction to your earlier post:

I say bull - it WAS real love. Misdirected love? Sure. Wrong? Absolutely? Tons of other words one can use to describe it.

If an action is real and a thought is fantasy, then how can you call A-love real? The only way to do that, it seems, is to give equal value to A-love with real love. But that logically can't be done and you gave a great explanation as to why it can't be done:

You DO get to know someone when you are having an affair. It's not a fantasy at all.

Right. Not only do you get to know the AP, you get to know EVERYTHING about the AP on day ONE!

"When a person shows you who they are believe them".

It takes a lot of self deluding to be able to ignore exactly who that person standing in front of you is. For WS’s who don’t ignore who the AP is, it still takes a lot of self-deluding to go ahead and begin to give that person value despite the obvious.

Real love is an action which makes it real and not a fantasy thought. No matter how hard a person might try, there is no act of love going on during an A. It takes a lot of self-deluding to think that any action of the AP is an act of love and therefore real.

I didn't find this site until after our first attempt at reconciliation failed. I did it ALL wrong, and truthfully so did he if you look at SI standards (no blame my dear - we did it wrong together!). I found this site and came on here after it failed, and ran like a scared puppy with my tail between my legs because I didn't like what I saw and heard. At all. I thought I could do it 'MY' way, that not EVERYONE has to follow the tenants on here.

I was wrong, and I came back when I was ready to really work on my issues and try to reconcile again.

I'm not sure what would have happened had we found this site after DDay1 last August, but I like to think that had we been working as a team and been on here together, we could have made it work back then and that is why my tagline would have been different. Who knows I guess, I was pretty freaking messed up.

If this and other posts aren't fantasy, I don't know what is.

I'm addressing you, but this could really be at many WS.

You have stated that HE did it wrong, that HE should have done things differently, that YOU had a bad marriage counselor, that you thought you could do things differently and it would work.

You've pushed a lot of blame around for the reason your first R failed.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it failed because you were still cheating and lying. Not your H, not your MC, but you. You're blaming circumstances for the failure. You were still involved in the A. That isn't circumstance, that's you. I'm seeing HUGE fantasy in your thinking because you're still looking for reasons outside of yourself for the failure.

Do you think maybe it would have gone better if you weren't still cheating? That's one thing I haven't seen you say - that in reality you weren't trying to R, you were trying to cake eat.

Your posts like this tell me two things:

First, there is quite a bit of fantasy happening in your R, imo.

Second, as mentioned earlier, you do not understand what a BS is feeling. You may want to because you've read that you need to, but you don't. I'm sure you feel terrible that your H is in pain, but you don't understand that pain. You don't understand the swirling thoughts of rage, shame, sadness, apathy, repeat. You don't understand what it takes to make it through a day.

Here is something I can tell you, as a BS. If you do love your husband, you should cut down on the "I get it, I've been there, let me explain things to you" to anyone. Instead, you should thank him for staying with you and apologize, and leave it at that.

My H had an EA. He ended it months before I found out. He's been, for the most part, very loving and really working on making the relationship better. I'm still looking for apartments. Why? Because someone that can behave the way he did isn't worth my time. They aren't a good person, end of story.

If I had caught him in the middle of it, if he had fought me on it, and ABSOLUTELY if there was a false R, he would be out of my life in a matter of hours. He would have seen the pain he caused, and if he chose to intentionally continue the activity that caused the pain while lying to my face about wanting to make things work, there would be no question in my head. To me, anyone that would do that to me isn't worth one minute of my life. That is just about the cruelest thing a person can do to another.

That's me. Your H clearly has the capacity to forgive more than I do. Many BSs have that capability.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds as if you think some BSs are looking for fragments of success when you don't see it. If all BSs had the hard lines you appear to think we should have, you most definitely would be in divorce.

I think my point here is that each scenario is different, and each person's tolerance level is different. I'm with metamorphasis on this. While it appears your intentions are well meant, I find your message insulting.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

If an action is real and a thought is fantasy, then how can you call A-love real? The only way to do that, it seems, is to give equal value to A-love with real love. But that logically can't be done and you gave a great explanation as to why it can't be done:

You DO get to know someone when you are having an affair. It's not a fantasy at all.

Right. Not only do you get to know the AP, you get to know EVERYTHING about the AP on day ONE!

"When a person shows you who they are believe them".

It takes a lot of self deluding to be able to ignore exactly who that person standing in front of you is. For WS’s who don’t ignore who the AP is, it still takes a lot of self-deluding to go ahead and begin to give that person value despite the obvious.

Real love is an action which makes it real and not a fantasy thought. No matter how hard a person might try, there is no act of love going on during an A. It takes a lot of self-deluding to think that any action of the AP is an act of love and therefore real.

Hmm, all very very true. You are right, we do show our AP's who we are on day1. I often think that is WHY I could never have loved my AP and also didn't love myself at the time. On some level I knew I would never want to be with him and all of his ugliness....yet I was the same to him and JUST as ugly in what I was doing. It's really hard to explain how one can do that, yet we as WS's do it. I've actually been told by a WS who was 'in love' and left his wife for his AP that what I did was 'worse' because I was not 'in love'.

So, to expand (and again, maybe this is harder for me because I didn't feel I was in love with AP)....if one can fall in love with someone who shows them such an ugly side of oneself, is it really love? Especially given, as we all agree, we don't know their WHOLE self - what we do know is mostly bad.

Or, maybe if we are talking about ONLY what is termed on here as fantasy love, and not just the word 'fantasy' as it relates to an affair, maybe that is something different. Maybe it is the word 'love' that needs to be defined. I find that near impossible because there are so many different feelings of love. I love my best friend, I love my kids, I love my dog, I love my husband.....how can all of those equate or be described with the same word?

So, maybe in the end, that is what people are using the 'fantasy' word to mean. They want the BS to understand that this 'love' can't possible equate with the love between a man and wife....and that I can completely agree with.

I am just saying that the relationship in it's entirety (love or not) was very much 'real'. Real love. Real good sex. Real sharing. Real xxxxxx (insert whatever fits for the particular affair).

Are you really just trying to ruffle feathers here? I guess this is general so you're entitled, but your posts kind of convey that you have no real (since we're using "real" and "fantasy" as our topic) understanding or empathy for the betrayed partner.

Hmmm, you agreed that both the WS and the AP are lying to each other and only presenting their 'best' side (or what they think the other person wants) and yet you stated you do get to know someone during an A.

How do you get to know someone that is lying to you about their real life, and lying to you by omission by not sharing some of the ugly truths about themself? And of course, you're doing the same. You're a made up version of yourself, as are they.

How is that getting to know each other in any real way?

Or are you just becoming what that person wants to get what you want? You know, a fantasy of sorts?

People in As lie to everyone, including the AP. You cannot get to know someone when the relationship is based on a pile of lies.

I'm going to go out on a huge limb here helpmetogetoverit. Please, don't take this the wrong way as this truly is me looking for insight. You're defending the relationship as real, despite admitting it was based on lies. You've stated things needed to be 'just so' to get to a place where R can happen.

You are firm in your belief that it is NOT fantasy. It is, in fact, real.

Are there aspects of the A that you miss? If so, what? I could definitely be off base here, but the way you so strongly believe it was real, it almost seems, to me anyway, that you want it to be real. To admit otherwise would be one more negative about it.

I'm sorry if I'm reading it wrong. It just reads like someone strongly defending the statement that Santa is real because to admit he's fantasy is admitting that all of the happy memories that involve Santa in any way are also not real. So, are you saying Santa isn't fantasy because to do so would be to admit that what you enjoyed wasn't real?

Maybe this is a better question for the thread in I Can Relate.

Are you really just trying to ruffle feathers here? I guess this is general so you're entitled, but your posts kind of convey that you have no real (since we're using "real" and "fantasy" as our topic) understanding or empathy for the betrayed partner.

I do tend to be a feather ruffler in general in life. But no, that wasn't my intention. I am sure you can tell that I am pretty harsh on myself for what I did and definitely have empathy for my husband and for other BS's out there. I guess at times I come off too harsh, I look back on what I did, how I ended up back in the affair months later....and I occasionally see posts that make me cringe. That remind me of what I did. That make me want to say 'No, please don't accept anything less than full remorse, full truths, full empathy...! I did that to my husband and I never want to see it happen to anyone else!!!' My empathy and having to see the visible destruction of my life does make me want to say something. I don't - because at only 5-6 months out from DDay 2 I am aware that I am no one to talk unless I am contacted directly with questions. I am still working, still healing, still in some pretty intense therapy 6+ times a month.....but no, I did not mean to ruffle feathers, even though I SOOO obviously did.

I did not mean to ruffle feathers, even though I SOOO obviously did.

Yes, but I still very much appreciate your honesty. I don't have to agree with it, but I always appreciate hearing the other side.

Thanks. I know you're taking some heat in this thread, some from me even, but you continue to respond. Probably doesn't seem like it, but it helps.

so again, thank you

now, back to the fire.....

You are firm in your belief that it is NOT fantasy. It is, in fact, real.

Are there aspects of the A that you miss? If so, what? I could definitely be off base here, but the way you so strongly believe it was real, it almost seems, to me anyway, that you want it to be real. To admit otherwise would be one more negative about it.

I'm sorry if I'm reading it wrong. It just reads like someone strongly defending the statement that Santa is real because to admit he's fantasy is admitting that all of the happy memories that involve Santa in any way are also not real. So, are you saying Santa isn't fantasy because to do so would be to admit that what you enjoyed wasn't real?

Maybe this is a better question for the thread in I Can Relate.

Ha ha, yeah, we'll probably get kicked out of here now with these questions.

My opinion, AGAIN, based on my affair. One in a million affairs. One that did not include love or as much sharing as maybe others did.

I personally was not someone different during my affair. Did he know the FULL me? Hells no. But I was not faking the small parts that he did see. I had been that person with my husband for years and 'lost' that part of myself. I didn't realize I missed it until the affair. Obviously it was all shrouded in secrecy, lies, and complete anhiliation of two families, but the small parts he saw were parts of my personality, even if they were not all 'good' parts.

So do I miss parts of the affair? Hell no. I am literally sickened that I shared ANYTHING so intimate with anyone other than my husband, my loving, caring, husband who did nothing to deserve this. I absolutely hate that someone else knows ANY part of me so intimate other than my husband. Hate it. It makes me physically nauseous.

Saying it was real to me is actually saying the EXACT opposite of what you posted/asked. If I was to say it was a fantasy or that any part of it was a fantasy....I almost feel THAT is saying that it was something to be 'missed' I guess, or remembered in any way fondly. Again, that is because to me the word fantasy has positive connotations, although others on here have posted that to them it doesn't.

I actually just looked up the definition of fantasy while I was typing:

6. An unrealistic or improbable supposition.

Interesting, nothing 'positive' about it I guess....although my use of the word most likely is more like #5 'an imagined event' which is why I STILL don't like the use of the word fantasy when it comes to any part of adultery. Love or not.

[This message edited by helpemegetoverit at 2:47 PM, November 22nd (Tuesday)]

How do you get to know someone that is lying to you about their real life, and lying to you by omission by not sharing some of the ugly truths about themself?

oh, they definitely get to know them. And yes, on day one! The problem lies in their self delusion. They dont believe what is so obviously real in front of them. Another lying cheater.

And that, stillgoing, IS delusional.

Of course, this is a "most cases" scenario. Because some WS just dont give a rats ass and can fully admit to themselves who they are cheating with.

I'm not saying the state of convincing oneself of a ton of bullshit as real isn't the case, I'm being a manbitch about semantic definition of delusion specifically.

As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.

vs:

Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception.

I'm just being an asshole about that, I know what you mean.

[

[This message edited by Phoenix519 at 4:09 PM, November 22nd (Tuesday)]

I am sure you can tell that I am pretty harsh on myself for what I did and definitely have empathy for my husband and for other BS's out there.

I guess at times I come off too harsh, I look back on what I did, how I ended up back in the affair months later....

I hope you don't feel like I am picking on you, but I do have to address this. I could go back through the thread and find other similar references, but this one will do...

Gently... you did not "end up back in the affair." You seem to talk about it like it was an accidental thing.

The reality is that you chose to engage in an affair. You did not just end up in it. I do see that as the reality. What happened within the A really happened, but you don't get to really (reality) know someone when you are both engaged in a lie, in my opinion.

So, maybe in the end, that is what people are using the 'fantasy' word to mean. They want the BS to understand that this 'love' can't possible equate with the love between a man and wife....and that I can completely agree with.

Finally something I can agree with!

The type of love you feel during an A is generally a fantasy love. It has not been tested and it is just the lovey-dovey hormones that your brain releases allowing you to overlook the flaws (and lies) and see little hearts floating over their head. THAT is what gets my feathers ruffled when talking about real/fantasy. You can't have a real love that is based on fantasy and, in my mind (by my definition), it's fantasy when you are not being real. When you are not showing who you truly are. When you are demonizing your spouse to excuse your A, etc. I understand that when a physical act happens it is real, it is the emotional aspect of an A that I find to generally be a fantasy.

Phoenix519...

You can get your point across without being completely insulting and assuming what other people's responses really mean and translating them into something *you* want it to be.

And to everyone else on this thread...

This is a really good discussion, but lets keep the replies civil.

Real love. Real good sex. Real sharing. Real xxxxxx.

The knife is in, you don't have to twist it.

that you have no real (since we are using "real" and "fantasy" as our topic) understanding or empathy for the betrayed partner.

Thank you non-goddess for getting the point across that I was trying to poorly earlier in this thread.

Thank you for sticking around on this thread, helpmegetoverit, and reading the criticisms. I know that can't be easy.

Very eloquently put UncertainOne.

Even though my WH and I have separated and are heading for D, this thought continues to baffle me. My stbxh wrote an email to me soon after D-Day in response to a tirade from me after I had been informed by BH of of one of his APs that he and OW1 had allegedly formed a "10 Year Plan" whereby the two of them would swan off into the sunset, leaving me and her BH behind with nothing. He vehemently denied all this saying that he had always told OW1 that he would NEVER leave me and that if they should be discovered then exactly what has happened WOULD happen.

Apart from the obvious immaturity in his outlook, it did tell me that my current reality is that 1) I am dealing with a liar of monumental proportions 2) He was capable of conducting several roles at once, having placed the inconvenient realities back in their box to enable him to live out whatever role he needed to play at any particular time.

I am now in the position of having to accept the reality that he made the choices he did whilst weighing up the consequences against his needs and his needs won. It would appear he decided this in full consciousness and was prepared for the outcome. That in MHO is a telling sign of the level of his narcissism and the lack of empathy for those around him.

However, his dialogue between himself and the several OW from what I can tell by his emails, was basically nothing about reality. It was all based on the fantasy aspect, the "What If". For example, would you do this, would you do that. If we were in this situation, what would you do, how would you react, how far would you go for ME? The boundaries were being pushed constantly to an extremely dangerous point. Sometimes I wonder if either mine or the BH's safety may have even been jeopardised at some point. Who knows how far it could have gone based on fantasy?

I can only speak for my own sich but the reality for me is that it is now apparent that my H is quite capable of putting his own needs/desires ahead of the feelings or wellbeing of anyone else. So the agonising truth for me is that it is totally "unrealistic" to expect that he will NEVER do that again and something I am not prepared to live with.

Ellejay

Thank you for sticking around on this thread, helpmegetoverit, and reading the criticisms. I know that can't be easy.

Eh, it's provided the perfect diversion for me today. I put the kids in school so I could clean the house. This has been perfect for my ADD personality.

Vacuum the living room.

Post.

Sweep the floors.

Post.

Etc. Etc.

It really comes down to the fact that I personally view the word 'fantasy' as I sometimes see it used (again, not always, not trying to make another generalization by accident) as an 'excuse' for some small or big part of the affair. I refuse to do that. I refuse to tell my BH, about ANY small part of the affair, that it was fantasy.

I did it. It was real. It was

real horrible

real deceiving

real adultery

real destructive

real horribleness

real sick

real twisted

the list goes on and on.

It REALLY was I was at the time. I was 'ugly'. I was horrible. I was malicious. I was deceitful. I discussed KNOWING it would hurt both my BH and my AP's BW...and did it anyway.

I was NOT living in some fantasy world. I didn't FANTASIZE about ay of this - it REALLY happened. Again, in my definition of the word fantasy and how I take it.

[This message edited by helpemegetoverit at 3:49 PM, November 22nd (Tuesday)]