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Kaylee ... I am very sorry that you find yourself here it royally sucks - no doubt about it.

Please take what I am gonna say with a grain of salt and as someone 3 years into this 'situation' ..

You've got to let go of the notion that that 'one thing' will make a difference. It won't. It just ... Won't. Been there. Doing that. It sucks. Yet again.

What your so-called husband is doing to you now is even worse than the affair. You both know the truth ... He just thinks that if he denies it enough that you will cave. You are supposed to live your life pretending otherwise. So you are stuck in something called hypervigilence ... Again, sucks. Only you can fix it and that's by saying enough.

He should be proving to you that he's trustworthy ... You shouldn't be seeking it out. You know this.

Let go of the notion of a smoking bomb.

Draw a hard line and say you are done. Cut him out and let him go.

You are awesome And deserve an authentic life.

Wheelsup

Individual counseling was very emotionally painful.... I was all over the place with pretty much every thing I've posted in this forum thus far. The different b/w/ the IC and MC was that the format of how we had to "speak" to one another was "structured", by counselor in MC. I had to refrain like using world or phrases like "You bastard!", even though that's truly what I was thinking.

In MC, the counselor asked what I would need to find my sense of "closure" about WSs actions. I said that I don't feel like I have the whole story and that WSs is lying about the parts of the story that I "DO" have evidence on. I would need to have all of the "pieces" that I've found (evidence, if you will) put together on a timeline by WS from beginning to end, when he sent "no further contact" e-mail to OW. In addition, I need WS to fill in where he contributed to the timeline to have the situation escalate to a true affair, as that cannot happen one-sided". I stopped the counselor and WS for a minute during their validation back to me of what I needed on the timeline and said - the timeline is NOT just for me, it will also help WS to keep from falling into trap again in the future, if he's actually being honest and "didn't see the affair escalating to the point it did until it already happened..." This way, the WS can see the warning signs, rather than be completely oblivious.

Don't get me wrong, I am still VERY HURT, betrayed and upset at this whole thing. I feel like I was just tossed aside like a piece of garbage so that WS could have his cake and eat it, too....

Have not decided on R or D yet, but I find that this counseling was effective, because I got to say alot of what I was feeling without screaming, and I think the WS knows he was an ASS - good for him, let him wallow in it for a while...

Stay strong Kaylee!

Not making a decision IS a decision. Let him SHOW you through his actions of what you asked for in Counseling.

We are here for you.

kaylee711, are you using Amago? That's what we use with our MC...I have mixed feelings about it. I hear over and over again how connect and improvements we've made in our relationship only to find a calling card. It went on for 2 months but see that there were no calls for a month and half. She said she always enjoyed talking with him (he lives in another city) and it was only friends. She realized she couldn't be friends so she stopped it. At this point I don't believe her although she may not have been calling him now.

They will always lie and cover up...and there are several reasons...guilt, not wanting to hurt us more, etc. I want to know the truth too, and it kills me that she's unable to understand that.

I'm going to see how it goes with the MC...I told my WF that I'm going to talk to the MC and tell her I don't believe this is working as we've spent 13 months and thousands of dollars and she still lied during our sessions and felt the need to contact OM. Either my WF comes clean, and no more I can't remember, I don't recall, there was nothing, etc, then it's over. I'm not living my life like this anymore!

Sorry if I vented, but I wanted to let you know you're not alone!

Hang in there Kaylee.

WS and I are on our third MC now. The first MC wanted us to learn to communicate better by listening and repeating back what the other said. Interesting approach, but useless if the communication is a pack of lies and all the WS really wants to do is continue the A. So that went nowhere.

The second MC referred us to another MC after two sessions. Apparently the MC was unable to address infidelity (WTF?), which was a bit disappointing given that I spent a half hour on the phone before we met discussing what? INFIDELITY!

We're on the third MC now, so the jury is still out, but at least the focus so far has been infidelity, which is a good start. This proces is frustrating for sure, but the options are rather limited at this point.

Sorry, had to vent a little.

((((Kaylee))))

I'm so sorry you are going through this...

I'm on board with every person here who says polygraph.

I just want to clarify because I'm not clear. Did you have IC while your husband was with you?

Hello... For MC. I went alone for 1 hr, then WS came in by himself to meet with counselor alone for 1 hr. Then, she regrouped with both of us for 2 hours. Emotionally exhausting time. I had to suppress a lot of 4-letter words when we all 3 met together, but it was a all out f-bomb session when I had the security of meeting with the counselor one-on-one...

And, yes, it is "Amago" method - expensive$$$$$$ at that! I guess I'll see if it's all worth the expense in the end, but I couldn't live on the way things were going...

[This message edited by kaylee711 at 2:13 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]

Glad you are starting counseling. In my experience ... it got worse (for us both) before it ever got better.

Mind you, I was starting out with a wayward who was actually taking responsibility and wanted to stop the affair ... most likely because the affair was all ready ended/ending and in a very ugly manner. So, I was NOT dealing with a man who wanted to continue the affair. He was still a little 'foggy' but not nearly like many other folks here on SI deal with, though.

Kaylee711: I am only a few months out from Dday. I will never forget the punch to the gut, when you realize your gut feeling that something wasn't right is confirmed. Then the insult to injury by WS swearing the were 'just friends'!! Then there is the fact you work to come to terms with...who has your WS become. The sad realization that you will never see the WS the way you did before Dday.

I was born a people pleaser. I had to reach deep within myself and realize I did not deserve such disrespect, lies, deceit and betrayal from someone who was suppose to protect and comfort me. That I am a strong person. I can survive without my WS if that is what needed to happen.

When I stood up for myself and said the A ends or we end. It is one or the other. When my WS realized it was not a threat or scare tactic, that I truly meant what I said, an amazing thing happened...He came out of the fog pretty quickly. I am not saying that everything suddenly becomes perfect because it doesn't. I am going to IC that specializes in PTSD.

From the conversations I've had with WS and discussed with IC, she believes that he really is working to show he wants the R. There are some things that still eat away at me...but I think they are minor things I have to let go to keep moving forward.

Some days are a struggle to not just hide away and try to forget the pain your WS will never really comprehend. I am finally having some fairly decent days now, but there is always a thought or ten about WS and the AP.

Dig deep and find your inner strength that will help you decide what you will and will not accept. I have found that many BS's have said that you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save the marriage. This is the best piece of advice. Once you reach this stage you will experience a freedom in your soul.

[This message edited by MissWhoKnew at 6:54 PM, August 13th, 2014 (Wednesday)]

Thank you, all for your continued support. You really mean alot to me at this moment in my life.

I'm trying to come to terms with something that WS said to MC... He said that at first, he and OW were just talking about her ill father, etc, etc, etc. He also said that he was consumed with a new job transition (yeah, ok), and he would just "fire off" responses to OW's sexual innuendos, not thinking anything of it. He said in hind sight, he sees how wrong this was....

But, during the session, I brought up the point that I am NOT AT ALL convinced that the EA didn't sway to a PA at one point or another. My reasons for feeling this way is because, in the "cyber world", it's clear - "black & white" EA/on-line A was going on.... When he "met" up with her when they happened to be in the same town for dinner a few times, he said that he always just met her at the restaurant(s), and the physicality led to nothing more than "friendly hugs".

My problem with this: The on-line A was going on for years, and my paper trail of evidence shows that they met in person a few times within the past year. How can I ever believe that the "on-line" and "physical-in person" worlds could be separated here??? It would seem that the sexting, advances, etc. would have to come up in a face-to-face conversation, since they had been carrying this on for SO long (since 2009)!

You can't make yourself believe something that you know isn't true.

He is lying.

Im sorry.

Lie detector. Or at least the threat. Parking lot confessions are legendary here.

FYI, I found out the truth about my SAFWH's PA,supposedly "just" an EA, eight YEARS after the fact. Talk about opening up an old wound...don't let this happen to you.

You know that's a lie. They purposely got together in person. You saw her plane ticket stubs and you confirmed dates with the other bs.

People don't meet secretly in person for just dinner. You know this. There is no reason they didn't have sex. They didn't have their spouses with them, they had all the time in the world, and they were alone. She called him her boyfriend.

They only thing that would have kept them from having sex was knowing it was the wrong thing to do. Their entire relationship was the wrong thing to do so they show no ability to control themselves based on right and wrong.

In fact they've PROVEN they can't be trusted with each other. Then they deliberately met alone with each other, in person.

It was not by chance.

He's already lying to your MC.

I agree with the polygraph. Don't bluff, really schedule this.

He's going to cling to this lie the most. In his mind he can say that it was no big deal as long as he doesn't admit they were physical. To him, that's where he crossed the line (even though in reality he crossed it much earlier). And he will deny it because admitting it means he did a bad thing. He does not believe he's capable of being a good person if he did a bad thing. He believes he's a good person, therefore he didn't do anything wrong.

Her husband confirmed that she admitted to sex. You know it happened.

What did your MC say when you said the OW admitted to sex but your husband still denies?

What about the secret phone he gave her that you knew nothing about? You don't give secret phones to appropriate friends.

Him switching it and giving it to your son is a way he eases his mind about what he did. He does this to quiet the cognitive dissonance he is feeling. If your son can use the phone and he's even excited to have it, then your wh getting it (even for his girlfriend first) is a good thing.

My wh did the same thing. A porn star took his hat off his head, wiped her crotch with it, and gave it back to him. In order to "prove" to himself that it was an ok thing and not a problem, he left his hat in our boys' playroom. They did play with it. He didn't wash it first.

It's integrating things that are proof of misconduct, into your acceptable family life as a way to ease feelings of guilt.

See it for what it really is. It's an admission of guilt.

He's willing to still lie to you.

He's willing to lie to your MC.

He's going to stick to his bullshit for as long as possible.

More digging on WS's computer -several porn pic downloads from internet... WTF???

I strongly suggest you contact OBS again and ask what she has told him regarding the nature of the relationship.

I don't say this thinking your WH is telling the truth. In fact, I'd bet ever dollar I'll ever make again that he's as full of shit as my cat box, but that's a different topic. I say it as a way to find out more since your WH is fine continuing to lie his ass off to your face.

You saw the plane tickets. You saw the emails expressing love, physical contact, etc. You KNOW the truth. Our desire for this nightmare to be a lie is strong - so strong that sometimes, for a time, we can convince ourselves that we are in fact making it worse than it is. The sad reality is that its usually much worse than we think at our worst moments. You want to find some shred of proof backing up your fears. Well, ask OBS.

Oh, as far as your WH saying OBS is abusive? It's common, extremely common, for a WS to portray the OBS as 'abusive, jealous, insane, etc'. This is so that the BS will question what the OBS says and does. This is your WH trying to cover his ass by removing one possible truth-giver from your world. This man isn't abusive, and your WH isn't honest.

In your shoes, I'd start the 180. Until your WH is remorseful and honest, trying to R is pointless. Right now, you're begging for the truth, and he's watching you without care, except of course for himself. Why waste your time with someone that is only interested in themselves? He sees the devastation his actions have caused. His response? More lies.

Ask OBS. Send him an email. Ask him directly, what has OW said about the relationship? What has she admitted to? Realize of course that she's going to tell a few lies too.

Regarding the cell phone - it's in your name now. I had to bring mine to a forensic analyst, but I was able to retrieve a couple hundred messages. The key is to STOP using that phone, now. The more texts come in and out, the more the deleted ones are being written over.

I agree with the polygraph. Don't bluff, really schedule this.

This ^^^

Kaylee ~

I am SO VERY SORRY you are here. I really, really am. But, the fact is you ARE here and you have found a community of people with similar experiences and a lot more 'education' in them ... PLEASE listen to them.

Why would your husband go on a trip on a plane? How long was he gone? Why would he MEET a woman (not you!) and take a plane together with her somewhere far away from home?

I doubt it was to take her to a restaurant.

I think you know he had an affair and he just isn't going to admit it.

Please consider all the previous advice:

1 - schedule a lie detector test

2 - contact the other woman's husband and compare notes

3 - DO THE 180 - HARD. Tell him until he is willing to tell you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; answer all of your questions and come clean ... you will be taking care of you. Explain to him that every new bit of information you receive (that he is trying to lie about and hide) will make you start over in your healing process. So, you are only interested in doing this once.

4 - Go to a lawyer and at least find out your rights. At the most, go ahead and draw up papers and either get them filed or get them prepared to file. Then he will really know you are serious about wanting the truth.

You are getting good advice here and I agree. It is hard to do it, I know; but once you have the truth you can finally start healing.

Kaylee-hope you are ok

Praying for you, Kaylee, today.