SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, when my comment about how one of my 2 daughters will statistically be sexually assaulted or raped, it was *invalidated*.

You have every right to feel that way, and I'd never tell you that your worry about rape of your daughters is wrong, if I had daughters, I'd worry about it too. But, when you add the word "statistically" your now talking about something different, your making a statement about the statistical likelihood of something happening. And, statistically speaking, unless there are some conflating factors (drug addiction, homelessness, etc), 1 out of your 2 daughters will not be raped. The CDC numbers are 1 in 5, if we take those as fact, it's not likely that 1 out of 2 will be raped.

Also, if this is a major concern for you, I suggest you Google, time magazine CDC rape numbers for an excellent analysis of the comparison between CDC and DOJ numbers and how the definitions and questions have led to such a disparity.

Also, interesting from the CDC study, because of the definition used, men reported rapes in the last 12 months at nearly the same level as women, which, from my experience, makes sense, I've been raped (by the clause of "too drunk to consent") in the past.

Sats were thrown at me to challenge mine, the not all men argument was tossed in there, how we have to teach our children to make sure the girl is ‘legal’ to protect themselves, women abusing children ( which is sickening)...etc etc etc.

These are valid POV. All of them. You need all angles.

Yes, everyone is entitled to feel however they want about rape in society. I think it's sickening and should be punished the fullest extent of the law. However, you are not entitled to made up statistics, none of us are. We can suppose statistics, I do it all the time when discussing things I shouldn't (mostly gender specific issues where I think a large majority of men do X or a large majority of women do Y). But I don't get to come on here and say that 82% of men are cheating simply to have more sex without some superb research to back that statement. I do say, all the time, that I think most men are cheating for sex, but that's my personal experience, and I try to make that clear when I say it.

I really struggled with posting this at all, and my primary reason for doing so is to encourage you to do the research so that you don't feel that your daughters have a 50/50 shot at being raped. I can't imagine what a cloud that hangs over you and it's a cloud that doesn't need to be there because it's not all the actual statistical likelihood of them experiencing that trauma. Please take this in the manner intended, and please look at the CDC statistics and the Time magazine article, it may really change your view, not just for your daughters, but of society in general.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:50 AM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

“We need feminism because rape and sexual assault happens”

“Rape and sexual assault is illegal.”

“But most perpetrators do not go to jail.”

“Because most perpetrators do not go to jail I did not report the fact that I was assaulted or raped.”

Sounds like fifth wave feminism should be all about women filing police reports to get rapists off the streets.

Back on topic: I believe that many men that describe themselves as feminists are playing a role to seduce feminist women. They aren’t really feminists. This is not always the case—I have a male co-worker who is very much a feminist.

Out of respect for Frankiesbeads and her final request on this thread, I will share the following info then cease participation.

Sexual Assault In The United States

-One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives (a)

-In the U.S., one in three women and one in six men experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)

-51.1% of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner and 40.8% by an acquaintance (a)

-52.4% of male victims report being raped by an acquaintance and 15.1% by a stranger (a)

-Almost half (49.5%) of multiracial women and over 45% of American Indian/Alaska Native women were subjected to some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)

-91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and nine percent are male (m)

-In eight out of 10 cases of rape, the victim knew the perpetrator (j)

-Eight percent of rapes occur while the victim is at work (c)

Cost & Impact of Sexual Assault

-The lifetime cost of rape per victim is $122,461 (n)

-Annually, rape costs the U.S. more than any other crime ($127 billion), followed by assault ($93 billion), murder ($71 billion), and drunk driving, including fatalities ($61 billion) (j)

-81% of women and 35% of men report significant short- or long-term impacts such as Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) (a)

-Health care is 16% higher for women who were sexually abused as children and 36% higher for women who were physically and sexually abused as children (k)

Child Sexual Abuse

-One in four girls and one in six boys will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old (d)

-30% of women were between the ages of 11 and 17 at the time of their first completed rape (a)

-12.3% of women were age 10 or younger at the time of their first completed rape victimization (a)

-27.8% of men were age 10 or younger at the time of their first completed rape victimization (a)

-More than one third of women who report being raped before age 18 also experience rape as an adult (a)

-96% of people who sexually abuse children are male, and 76.8% of people who sexually abuse children are adults (l)

-34% of people who sexually abuse a child are family members of the child (l)

-It is estimated that 325,000 children per year are currently at risk of becoming victims of commercial child sexual exploitation (k)

-The average age at which girls first become victims of prostitution is 12-14 years old, and the average age at which boys first become victims of prostitution is 11-13 years old (k)

-Only 12% of child sexual abuse is ever reported to the authorities (f)

Campus Sexual Assault

-20% - 25% of college women and 15% of college men are victims of forced sex during their time in college (b)

-A 2002 study revealed that 63.3% of men at one university who self-reported acts qualifying as rape or attempted rape admitted to committing repeat rapes (h)

-More than 90% of sexual assault victims on college campuses do not report the assault (b)

-27% of college women have experienced some form of unwanted sexual contact (e)

-Nearly two thirds of college students experience sexual harassment (p)

Crime Reports

-Rape is the most under-reported crime; 63% of sexual assaults are not reported to police (m)

-The prevalence of false reporting is low between 2% and 10%. For example, a study of eight U.S. communities, which included 2,059 cases of sexual assault, found a 7.1% rate of false reports (i). A study of 136 sexual assault cases in Boston found a 5.9% rate of false reports (h). Researchers studied 812 reports of sexual assault from 2000-2003 and found a 2.1% rate of false reports (g).

References

(a) Black, M. C., Basile, K. C., Breiding, M. J., Smith, S .G., Walters, M. L., Merrick, M. T., Stevens, M. R. (2011). The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS): 2010 summary report. Retrieved from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention.

(b) Cullen, F., Fisher, B., & Turner, M., The sexual victimization of college women (NCJ 182369). (2000). Retrieved from the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice.

(c) Duhart, D. (2001). Violence in the Workplace, 1993-99. Bureau of Justice Statistics.

(d) Finkelhor, D., Hotaling, G., Lewis, I. A., & Smith, C. (1990). Sexual abuse in a national survey of adult men and women: Prevalence, characteristics and risk factors. Child Abuse & Neglect 14, 19-28. doi:10.1016/0145-2134(90)90077-7

(e) Gross, A. M., Winslett, A., Roberts, M., & Gohm, C. L. (2006). An Examination of Sexual Violence Against College Women. Violence Against Women, 12, 288-300. doi: 10.1177/1077801205277358

(f) Hanson, R. F., Resnick, H. S., Saunders, B. E., Kilpatrick, D. G., & Best, C. (1999). Factors related to the reporting of childhood rape. Child Abuse and Neglect, 23(6), 559–569.

(g) Heenan, M., & Murray, S. (2006). Study of reported rapes in Victoria 2000-2003: Summary research report. Retrieved from the State of Victoria (Australia), Department of Human Services.

(h) Lisak, D., Gardinier, L., Nicksa, S. C., & Cote, A. M. (2010). False allegations of sexual assault: An analysis of ten years of reported cases. Violence Against Women, 16, 1318-1334. doi:10.1177/1077801210387747

(i) Lonsway, K. A., Archambault, J., & Lisak, D. (2009). False reports: Moving beyond the issue to successfully investigate and prosecute non-stranger sexual assault. The Voice, 3(1), 1-11. Retrieved from the National District Attorneys Association.

(j) Miller, T. R., Cohen, M. A., & Wiersema, B. (1996). Victim costs and consequences: A new look (NCJ 155282). Retrieved from the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice.

(k) National Coalition to Prevent Child Sexual Abuse and Exploitation. (2012). National Plan to Prevent the Sexual Abuse and Exploitation of Children.

(l) National Sexual Violence Resource Center. (2011). Child sexual abuse prevention: Overview.

(m) Rennison, C. M. (2002). Rape and sexual assault: Reporting to police and medical attention, 1992-2000 [NCJ 194530]. Retrieved from the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

(n) Peterson, C., DeGue, S., Florence, C., & Lokey, C. N. (2017). Lifetime economic burden of rape among U.S. adults. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, Advanced online publication. doi:10.1016/j. amepre.2016.11.014

(o) Smith, S. G., Chen, J., Basile, K. C., Gilbert, L. K., Merrick, M. T., Patel, N., … Jain, A. (2017). The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS): 2010-2012 state report. Retrieved from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention.

(p) Hill, C., & Silva, E. (2005). Drawing the line: Sexual harassment on campus. Retrieved from the American Association of University Women.

May we all do a better job of listening to and supporting one another in the future.

Again statistics mean nothing. Yesterday on the news report a family of sisters came on and a preacher had raped all five of the girls. On national TV, they came forth to testify that the church covered it up and the church made the parents sign a confidential agreement that they had no idea was not binding.

I hear you Frankiesbeads. I have had the same fears for my children. The best we can do is educate them. Your concern is valid. If you were a victim yourself, then it is normal to be hypervigilant. I am sure you have taught your girls how to protect themselves.

I don't think protecting your children is a feminist thing or movement. No one wants to become a victim of sexual abuse. It is a separate issue to me that has nothing to do with feminism. A human being male or female doesn't want to become a victim of sexual abuse.

I think I understand some of your original argument though. You can correct me if I am wrong. Are you upset because your husband has more respect for his daughter than he ever had for you? My husband was the same way. God forbid anyone treat his daughter the way he treated me. So where was that concern and compassion with us? We are someone's daughter. We are their daughter's mother. We are their wives. How could there be such a distinction between example(how their daughter is treated) and action (how they treated us). It makes them a hypocrite. That is difficult to reconcile.

[This message edited by hopefulmother at 9:52 AM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

I still haven’t heard a single solution in all of this, beyond

I just want parents to teach their sons to not sexually assault women. Not just ensure that they are ‘legal’.

Have your sons see women as *people*, not an obstacle or challenge or less than them.

Teach them that they have more to offer than what’s between their legs.

and if you can’t see how condescending and ignorant that perspective is, well there is no stat that will ever help your cause.

You are missing the words ‘sexually assaulted’.

Which I stated several times.

Which is an entire host of unwanted sexual advances.

You are focusing on statistics.

But statistics don’t solve the problem of sexual assault. Which was my point.

Hiding behind numbers does nothing. Throwing numbers does nothing.

Wait...it does. It invalidates it. It minimizes it. It takes the focus off of it and says ‘its not that bad if this what’s reported’.

These numbers, as silverhopes indicated, do not reflect the assaults and rapes that are not reported.

That teenager coming home from high school that was groped on the bus? Not reported.

Date rapes? I have 2 of my own and several friends that also didn’t report.

Spousal rape? Probably not reported.

Groped by your FIL? Dismissed.

Your BFF’s dad grabs your vagina? Who are you going to tell without a shitstorm happening? So that girl keeps it to herself.

These are all anecdotal and not all mine. I have no statistics to back them up. I can only surmise, which Is logical albeit not irrefutable, that most assault victims say nothing.

Putting a spotlight on this problem and people actually speaking up, and having empathy and training/shaming assaulters is what I hope is beginning with my daughters generation. But with their parents so deeply entrenched in the historical way of dealing with SA, it’s a tough hill for them to climb.

The thing with statistics is that we all know they can be manipulated and skewed. Statistics are as only good as the source publishing them. Numbers are malleable to those with an agenda.

As a business woman, i know firsthand how accounting metrics can be twisted and manipulated to reflect loss or gain, with valid elements being added or removed to prop the argument. It happens. It’s creative and convoluted and accepted, provided that all the numbers are authentic.

Say i sell copiers. Colour or B&W machines only. If I were to have a banner year selling the B&W machines but my colour sales are significantly lower, those sales figures can make my sales look:

1- overachiever/success

2- underachiever/failure

3- neither

Accurate sales numbers but what does that company want? Did they want more B&W machines sold or colour? Depends upon what they set out as targets initially. Let’s say they wanted more colour machines out there.

However, if the company as a whole sold more b&w, they failed at their goal. It will assuredly be on the books.

But those B&W machines put the company into the black, well, what are they going to do with that? Upper mgmt grossly miscalculated the market, which is an actual failure on their part and their skill set.

Will they have the business ethics to put a spotlight on their fuckup? Or will they quietly minimize it? How will they spin it? Will they overplay or underplay? Depends upon their agenda.

Numbers, even the plain ones in your face, can be manipulated.

Statistics can be challenged and should be, depending upon the source of those numbers.

So, I appreciate that metrics are available. They should not be taken as gospel. They can be used as a measuring stick along side the experiences of SA survivors so we can do better when we know better. Stats are only a small element of this incredibly enormous issue.

I really struggled with posting this at all, and my primary reason for doing so is to encourage you to do the research so that you don't feel that your daughters have a 50/50 shot at being raped. I can't imagine what a cloud that hangs over you and it's a cloud that doesn't need to be there because it's not all the actual statistical likelihood of them experiencing that trauma. Please take this in the manner intended, and please look at the CDC statistics and the Time magazine article, it may really change your view, not just for your daughters, but of society in general.

And this is where I disagree. I said sexually assaulted or raped. Its not a cloud that hangs over my head. It’s actually likely to happen. And it terrifies and saddens me. No one deserves SA.

And I am using SA as a blanket for any unwanted or unsolicited sexual advances. I used rape as rape.

Society doesn’t like change and the recent #metoo movement was uncomfortable for it. It put a spotlight on the issue. Rightfully so. These experiences may or may not be included in those statistics.

This movement was consistently invalidated. But they kept going. You could tell the momentum was there. Cosby was convicted, that steinberg(?) has charges laid. These guys were at it for YEARS but everyone looked the other way or were blackballed for speaking out.

It shouldn’t have been that way. But all of the old arguments were used, blame shifting on to the victim and giving the accused a pass because of their station in that industry.

I wonder if those SA and rapes are included in statistics.

SA has been minimized too long. All of the old arguments are being slapped down.

And just like infidelity, it needs a spotlight put directly on it. The damage is does because someone getting their rocks off on someone who does not consent needs to be talked about plainly and openly.

Those offenders need consequences.

Body autonomy needs to be taught, both as an individuals and how to treat others.

Impulse control needs to be taught.

I’m old enough to recall

-she shouldn’t have dressed like a slut

-she shouldn’t have drank that much

-what did she expect to happen going to that part of town

-she should have just went along with it, he's a nice guy and he liked her

-just go out with him to make him happy

-im sure he didn’t mean to grab your boob

-im sure he didn’t mean to grab your ass, don’t be so sensitive

- he’s just being friendly,

-He just wants a kiss, dont be so uptight

- well, he did buy her dinner, what did she think was going to happen if she went back to his house

Well, i don’t think she expected to be sexually coerced, sexually assaulted or raped.

So, these, and hundreds of other invalidations no longer have legs.

And they shouldn’t.

They placed blame on the wrong person for far too long.

Society is now placing it where it should have been the entire time. And that makes people uncomfortable.

Tough shit.

If these people, these perpetrators don’t want to he known as shitty human beings, then they shouldn’t do shitty things to people.

It’s an easy concept.

[This message edited by Frankiesbeads at 8:48 PM, August 19th (Sunday)]

Hopefulmother,

I think I understand some of your original argument though. You can correct me if I am wrong. Are you upset because your husband has more respect for his daughter than he ever had for you? My husband was the same way. God forbid anyone treat his daughter the way he treated me. So where was that concern and compassion with us? We are someone's daughter. We are their daughter's mother. We are their wives. How could there be such a distinction between example(how their daughter is treated) and action (how they treated us). It makes them a hypocrite. That is difficult to reconcile.

Yes, that WH opinion on how well his daughters should be treated is different as to how he treats me.

And I hope they get men that treat them better than he’s treated me. Fingers crossed.

In the past, I’ve brought up examples of his sexual coercion and then asked if he’d want his daughters to be treated the same way.

His only answer at the time was ‘Thats not the same thing and you know it’ And I’d argue that, yeah, mistreatment is mistreatment and he’d just say ‘but you and I are married. That’s different’

And this is where I disagree. I said sexually assaulted or raped. Its not a cloud that hangs over my head. It’s actually likely to happen. And it terrifies and saddens me. No one deserves SA.

It is actually likely to happen and I talk to my kids ALL THE TIME TO THE POINT THEY ARE SICK OF ME.

Just from these questions alone I'll answer:

Date rapes? 2 times

Spousal rape? 1 time after I disclosed my RA

Groped by your FIL? Kind of he tried to shove a dollar bill one time between my breasts.

These are just the answers to your questions if I listed every uncomfortable sexual advance or harassment the list would go right off the page.

It's sickening and it's disgusting.

And I agree with you that men are usually the perpetrators. I know there are women perpetrators as well but doesn't seem to be as often as men.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 11:44 AM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

Loukas,

I still haven’t heard a single solution in all of this, beyond

I just want parents to teach their sons to not sexually assault women. Not just ensure that they are ‘legal’.

Have your sons see women as *people*, not an obstacle or challenge or less than them.

Teach them that they have more to offer than what’s between their legs.

and if you can’t see how condescending and ignorant that perspective is, well there is no stat that will ever help your cause.

Actually, I’ve offered several solutions such as speaking up, stepping in, placing blame where it should belong.

And why is teaching boys that women are more than sexual objects ignorant? I mean, social media, TV, magazines all teach that women are sexualized objects. Anything that is deeper than that is drowned out.

Why is asking that parents teach their boys that the commercial media is an illusion?

The problem I have with the #metoo movement is that the accussed lives are ruined before they are proven guilty. It isn't an out them after proven guilty. It is destroy their creditability and career before they are proven guilty. The likely hood of everyone of them being guilty is slim. I knew a woman that lied just to ruin a man she like and was dating someone else back in highschool. We have seen bunny boiler stories here. What is to keep some bunny boiler from destroying a person out of spite and jealousy? There is no question that a human being is capable of doing some horrifying things in the name of spite and jealousy.

Look at the whole Chris Hardwick thing. There has been no documented proof presented, but that man was put through the ringer. Conflicting stories state that Chloe cheated on him and was angry that he moved on and wouldn't take her back. After being here for years, I can believe a scenario like that. Some of airing your story works because other victims get the courage to come forward with the same abuser. No one has come forward that I know of with him accusing him of mistreatment. If you have the proof and you want to take an abuser off the streets, then do the right thing and follow through with it like others have with the #metoo movement. Honestly, I think the whole thing has become a witch hunt. The mindset of protect and believe the victim first comes at a cost when the abuser just might be innocent. Where are the rights of the accused? I am sorry, but this just isn't right. What if my son was ever accused by some crazy girl with a motive out of jealousy because he dumped her?

[This message edited by hopefulmother at 12:28 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

And where does the blame belong, Frankie? Because all I’ve picked up so far is - men.

Growing up as a boy, I never once watched a commercial and thought to myself “well let’s go rape some sexual objects now!”

As a man I never bought anything because I thought the woman of my dreams would magically fall in my lap.

Either way, I have more respect for the children in my life then to simply presume any intentions of wrong doing before they can even understand the actions you wish to condemn upon them. I wouldn’t presume a girl will become a woman interested in sexual assualting anyone, nor would I presume the same upon a boy. However both genders are taught to be respectful to all, because that is the right thing to do. At least in my understanding of the golden rule.

Shaming boys about their sexuality to serve your purpose can only result in poor behavioural habits. At a time when female sexuality is being promoted to battle shaming, why would you do any less with males? That is condescending.

[This message edited by Loukas at 12:08 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

Actually, I’ve offered several solutions such as speaking up, stepping in, placing blame where it should belong.

And why is teaching boys that women are more than sexual objects ignorant? I mean, social media, TV, magazines all teach that women are sexualized objects. Anything that is deeper than that is drowned out.

Why is asking that parents teach their boys that the commercial media is an illusion?

Those are good solutions to teach girls and boys. Girls need a lot of teaching too. The things I have seen some 3rd graders wear. I am sorry, if a girl doesn't want a boy to view them as a sexual object-then they shouldn't dress like one. I believe in modesty. I am not talking Mennonite, but please... Some girls dress promiscuously and I am a woman. I know why they do it. Girls need to be taught that societies view isn't right either. Some of the shorts and bathing suits out there on the racks right now for 8year old girls is just disgusting. Yet, they wouldn't sell them if the girls didn't want to wear them.

My husband's OW came on to him. Girls need to be taught how to behave just as much as boys do. That is why this isn't a feminist issue. It is a societal one.

The problem I have with the #metoo movement is that accusers lives are ruined before they are proven guilty. It isn't an out them after proven guilty. It is destroy their creditability and career before they are proven guilty.

Yes, exactly the fear I have had for my sons. That is what I meant that both genders can be targeted by unscrupulous people.

Look here at SI how many BH's have been falsely accused of DV by their WW's.

My sister told me for years that her ex fiancé date raped her. They had broken the engagement, but he invited her over for dinner to talk some things over. He then raped her, she told me. I was so angry and upset. I kept telling her to report it to the police. That he could do this to others. He can't get away with this shit. She refused.

Fast forward many, many years. During these many years, we have discussed her being raped by her ex fiancé. Now, her marriage of 30+ years is going down the toilet. She is separated. She wants to get in touch with her ex fiancé to see how he is and how his life is going. I am puzzled. Who the fuck wants to contact their rapist to see how they are? I get angry at her. I tell her not to contact her rapist. I tell her that is fucked up and she needs some help. She gets angry at me. Tells me that there is nothing wrong with her wanting to contact him. I then ask her to tell me exactly how this man raped her. Turns out, my sister was not raped at all. She consented. She was seduced. She was angry at herself for allowing herself to be seduced. She told herself, me and many others, for years that she was raped.

ETA: I think you mean, in the quote I shared, that the "accused" lives are ruined, not the "accusers".

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:19 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

Again statistics mean nothing

And, that says it all...reality takes second place to "this is how I feel things are/should be."

Example: People think there is a epidemic of child abductions...because they see it on TV. Facts: they are down or constant over the last 40 years.

Statistics aren't "points of view" or angles - they are facts.

As I said above, Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

If everyone just made up facts to fit their view, life would just be chaos.

One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives (a)

-In the U.S., one in three women and one in six men experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)...

As I and Rideitout, pointed out (as did the Washington Post and Time - not exactly bastions of the Men's Rights Movement), the CDC study was deeply flawed in that the people ASKING the questions decided if someone was raped/assaulted - NOT the person ANSWERING the questions. Further, the catagories were broadened significantly to encompass a things that most people wouldn't associate (drunken sex between you and your H? Rape (but not the H being raped). Verbal statements? sexual assault)

Why are you assuming I am referencing anything you posted and/or your comments on statistics? I do not make any references to your username, any of your specific comments, the term "misogyny", and a direct accusation of threadjacking on your part in any of my statements.

I look forward to your explanation of this interpretation.

Wow...really?

Oh, I don't know...could be that silverhopes and I were having a conversation for the last page and a half, which was then deemed threadjacking...then you come along and bemoan all the threadjacking with wrong statements and inaccuracies.

I guess I could be wrong.

ETA: If you want to start a new thread on this, have at it; I'll reply there. And, I'll bow out of this thread. But, if you want to keep calling me out and asking me questions/accusing me of things, I'll respond. But don't then turn around and accuse me of t/j.

[This message edited by WornDown at 12:29 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

Yes, thank you SM. I will correct that.

Statistics aren't "points of view" or angles - they are facts

Statistics are not facts. They are subject to fallacy because they are conducted by imperfect human beings. They can be an objective interpretation, but not fact. There are so many ways to mess up a survey giving statistics. Geographical locations can make a huge difference in statistics.

The reality is 5 sisters abused in one family. That is fact. That already discredits the statistics.

It is actually likely to happen and I talk to my kids ALL THE TIME TO THE POINT THEY ARE SICK OF ME.

But it's not, that's the thing, the statistics don't bare out what you're saying. It would be like me telling men that only 1% of BH's ever R. I can tell them my R didn't go well, I can relate to them the 3 wives who all cheated on me, but, statistics don't back up "1% of BH's can R" anymore than they back up "it's likely to happen". Now, if we include crude comments and unwanted touching, yes, I agree with you, that's likely to happen, I've had it happen dozens; perhaps hundreds of times. And, by the current definition, I've been clearly raped before (blackout drunk and slept with a girl who "seduced" me). So, yes, I'd even go so far as to say "if you get blackout drunk enough times, it's likely you'll wind up in bed with someone you'd rather not, and, given our current laws, that would be considered rape".

And I agree with you that men are usually the perpetrators. I know there are women perpetrators as well but doesn't seem to be as often as men.

I agree that men are usually the perps (almost always) for violent rape. What rape used to be was almost an exclusively male crime. What it is today; I'm not so sure. There will be 1000's, probably 10,000's of thousands of rapes this weekend across college campuses, people drinking too much and waking up next to someone they'd rather not. Too drunk to consent. And I think that mix is going to be much more balanced between men/women because it's no longer a violent crime. Yes, "rape by force", that's a male crime almost 100% (although males are often the victims of that crime as well). But "rape" as we currently define it including date rape and too intoxicated to consent? I wouldn't for one second suppose that men are the vast majority of those cases, I'd think they are the majority, but plenty of women are doing the raping in those situations as well.

For the record, I'll say two things. I think rape is an awful crime and that people who commit it should be punished very harshly. However, I also think that the current definition of rape is patently ridiculous, illustrated by this simple thought experiment. I'm sure some of the women I slept with in college weren't too happy we slept together in the morning either. In fact, they were blackout drunk too! So.. We raped each other? Yes, since neither of us could consent, we are both victims and perps at the same time. That makes no sense, and illustrates the "morning after" problem succinctly.

Rape is a crime of violence, it's not a crime of "oops, she's not nearly as pretty as I thought when I had a 30 pack on board". That's called beer goggles, but, by current laws, it's rape by the inability of the other to provide positive consent. Now, that said, the descriptions here seem to be clearly rape or at very least harassment which both, IMHO, should be crimes and punishable. But just because I've also been harassed and raped by current standards doesn't mean that I get to discard the statistics. It's unlikely that my son would be raped in college if he doesn't get blackout drunk. If he does, yes, it's almost 100% that he will eventually be raped and wind up pretty unhappy in the morning with a woman next to him he doesn't even remember meeting.

I was blackout drunk in my own home at 16 years old. 2 of my guy friends decided to have sex me one right after the other. I was in and out of consciousness and yes I consider it rape!

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 12:38 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

@RIOActually, rape is a crime of power and control. It doesn't necessarily include violence. I don't know why you keep hanging onto that falsehood.

ETA: Oh, crazyblindsided, I am so sorry. You were certainly raped. No consent is rape.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:40 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

Hopefulmother

Look at the whole Chris Hardwick thing. There has been no documented proof presented, but that man was put through the ringer. Conflicting stories state that Chloe cheated on him and was angry that he moved on and wouldn't take her back. After being here for years, I can believe a scenario like that. Some of airing your story works because other victims get the courage to come forward with the same abuser. No one has come forward that I know of with him accusing him of mistreatment. If you have the proof and you want to take an abuser off the streets, then do the right thing and follow through with it like others have with the #metoo movement. Honestly, I think the whole thing has become a witch hunt. The mindset of protect and believe the victim first comes at a cost when the abuser just might be innocent. Where are the rights of the accused? I am sorry, but this just isn't right. What if my son was ever accused by some crazy girl with a motive out of jealousy because he dumped her?

Im actually inclined to believe CH was guilty of what he was accused of. She saved the ‘proof’ for the appropriate channels. Not everything is for the public's eye, regardless of how the ball got rolling. When you have women who quit in protest of him being reinstated, women who have been with tye show from the beginning, they know the truth.

The #metoo movement has done more good than not. It validates those who have been subjected to SA. I honestly do not know of any that have been falsely accused? I’m sure tyere have been but none come to mind?

There’s an analogy out there called ‘The Missing Stair’ and its a good one.