SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

CT is right. You should use the separation to focus on your own goals so that you don't get sucked right back into the coD behavior of focusing on her and what she's doing. You have MC with her. You will be able to tell if she is doing the work based on how she acts there. You don't need to micromanage her by watching over her shoulder to make sure she's doing it. That's harmful to both you and her.

My first reaction when reading your initial post was resurfacing old memories. I won't go into it but suffice to say I've been through something very similar. So my initial response about put her things on the curb and she can bounce was probably knee-jerk and emotional. I've read the whole thread and her thread in another section. There's nuances here, but you have to approach this with caution and pragmatism.

So with that said, a few comments:

I want to believe her that there were no feelings there, it was “just sex”. I want to believe all of it because it makes it hurt less.....but this time I just don’t.

Well, you want to believe that, of course, but her actions disprove the "just sex" excuse, which is a very common response to lessen the impact of the affair. Given the sheer amount of years your WW invested in this man, do you really think it was "just sex" for her? For him? Personally, I hate seeing this response. Making love to my wife was never "just sex" for me. Yet, when she said that, it made it that way. It cheapened something about our marriage, and I resented that for years. I sense this is a root cause of anger with you.

So a little more story. She worked for him. They worked in an industry that had late nights and drinking. She was an alcoholic. I never realized the extent....but she was. She has gotten better recently (last year or so)....and I do believe she has gotten drinking under control. They stopped working together years ago and the affair apparently slowed down but didn’t totally stop until this all blew up, or so she says.

I'm not quite an alcoholic but I have been at risk for being one in the past, and have controlled it through effort and will. I come from a family of enabling alcoholics. So I know what I'm saying when I say-- you can't fix that part of her at all. You just can't. She has to do it and she has to want to do it.

Had a rough night tonight. Said a lot I shouldn’t have. It hurt but I feel better honestly. I love the idea of a poly. And the idea of sending OMW flowers lol. I really am thinking of calling and meeting up with her to compare notes.

Anger is going to be your constant companion for a while. I had huge anger issues after my failed reconciliation and divorce. I know, already, you don't want to be that angry guy. I didn't. It had a negative impact on my health.. I suffered from blood pressure issues and weight gain and loss, insomnia and other things. I ground my teeth in my sleep, when I could sleep. So understand, no matter WHAT you choose to do, you will be angry for a while, you will act "not like you" for a while. Her adultery changes you, not often for the better. As in, your brain chemistry. It makes finding joy in life difficult. The good news is you will not be this way forever. You need to aim for blessed indifference. The 180 is your friend. I can tell you are having trouble engaging it right now, but it will help over time. It took me three years.

I am struggling with the dichotomy though, I am a good person. Some of the anger is making me do things that just aren’t me. I can’t let her make me a different person. I know who I am.

Yes. You are a good person. Shitty things can happen to very good people. I like to think I am a good person. That doesn't make either of us supermen. You have been hurt, very badly, and your anger is perfectly natural, if not desirable. Just don't let it escalate to a point where you are vulnerable for false charges of physical abuse. You may want to invest in a voice activated recorder, and record every conversation with her, just in case.

We have no kids. Never wanted them to be honest. THat was something we both shared.

This will be such a blessing in case things don't work out.

Shitty part is I feel so guilty for kind of kicking her out, when that pales in comparison to what she did.

Why feel shitty? I honestly think some distance is a very good idea for a while. You are reacting emotionally towards her (I get that from here and her thread) right now. It may feel great to vent but in the end it won't be very productive.

I guess she isn’t feeling the love over there then? I want to read it and hear her get eviscerated. I won’t let her make me someone I’m not though. I have integrity and said I would give her that privacy....not that she deserves it.

Ummmm. No. You don't. I have. I'll respect your wishes on this, but yeah, you don't want to read it.

I expect there is a strong streak of co-dependency in your relationship, and that has fed the anger about her betrayal. It is to be expected.. you have loved this one idealized person, the wife you trust, idealize and love, suddenly showing you she wasn't anything at all like you thought she was. I think it might be possible to rebuild this thing, with a lot of hard work, naked self-analysis, and therapy. But there won't be trust. Not for a very, very long time if at all. If that's something you can live with, do what you sense is best. You are the man on point about this. it will be your decision. I recommend a little more time apart. I suspect deep down inside you may want to yell at her some more. Maybe, maybe not. I don't predict it will go well. Only you can determine if the GIFT of reconciliation is something you want to give her.

HBF,

Below is a list of what a remorseful WS (Wayward Spouse) should look like. There is a difference between remorse and regret. There is a lot of useful information about this and other affair-related topics in the Healing Library in the yellow box on the upper left.

If a WS is truly remorseful, they:

• are non defensive

• examine their motives for their affairs, without blaming their spouses

• accept their roles as healers to their wounded partners

• do not resist breaking off all contact with the affair partner

• show genuine contrition and remorse for what they have done

• make amends and apologize to loved ones

• apologize often, especially the first two years

• listen with patience and validate their spouses’ pain

• allow their spouses a lot of room to express their feelings

• respect the betrayed spouse’s timetable for recovering

• seek to assure spouses of their love and commitment to fidelity

• keep no secrets

• do not maintain close ties with those who condoned the affair

• are willing to be extremely accountable for their time and activities

• frequently check in with spouses as to how they are doing

• are aware of and anticipate triggers of the affair

• are willing to get rid of hurtful reminders of the affair

• don’t minimize the damage the affair had on the children

commit themselves to a long-term plan for recovery, honesty, and Internal (Spiritual) growth

The foundation of marriage is trust. Your WW has a lot of work to do before she can be a safe partner for you.

She tells me “she didn’t know how to stop” and that’s why it kept going

She didn’t know how to stop it from happening. She didn’t know how to end it. She doesn’t know when to stop drinking either. She has no boundaries and destroys her life and the ones around her because of what? The constant need for validation?

You want your WW back. We all did.

Listen to the voice of experience. All of us have been there. Your time away from her will allow you to set your own boundaries. What is acceptable and what is not? It will also give you the opportunity to examine her behavior during all those years, better see her for what she is and assess whether the work she is doing to change is enough.

Hang in there, you’ll get through this.

So we agreed yesterday morning that she come up and get some more stuff for the separation. It was quite the ride for her, so i agreed to let her spend the night. She stayed in the guest room.

It was a really weird night to be honest. I tried to stay strong and 180 - and we tried to stay cordial and talk logistics. I think things went pretty well, actually. we definitely talked more relationship than we both wanted to - but i think we are on the same page that we both ned to spend some time alone.

So, we agreed to go no contact with each other for the next 2 weeks. She is back with her sister (i checked the GPS).

The hardest part was her going to leave. She asked me if she could get a hug, and i just said no. She then seemed rejected, and sort of stormed out. I know it was her way of protecting herself - its what she does.

I heard her say a lot of different things she is going through. I heard her talk in ways i have never heard. She sounds like she has been reflecting, and truly digging deep. On the flip side, i still don't think she realizes the depth of the hurt she has caused.

Lastly, i feel guilty. She told me some more of what i said that drunken angry night - and i was terrible. I told her she had no soul......i fell down the stairs drunk (which i don't remember at all). She said there are some things i said that hurt to her core and she will never unhear.....i told her that wasn't my intention, and wasn't me talking but the alcohol, which then made me feel like a hipocrite.

Of course, a week ago i realized how bad my drinking was making me act in these past few weeks (im not a drinker at all, but was medicating to lower the pain) - and i have stopped completely. I know that's the right thing for me to do to focus on myself.

Anyways - after she left today, i got sad......i cried....i spent the day feeling sad for myself. I took a nap....i just woke up an hour ago, and sat there feeling miserable for myself again. Then, i decided that this isn't how i have to be. I can choose to have a good night. This is precisely why we need a separation - i need to be happy with me.

Don't need any response - just needed to vent a bit. Im now wide awake, and the weather is beautiful, and i'm going to have a good night. Then, tomorrow is another day.

[This message edited by HurtbyBestFrnd67 at 4:49 PM, May 15th (Friday)]

Seems to me that you handled the situation very well.

Have a great night tonight

It's good that you decided to stay seperated. She is not remorseful. She is regretful. She is sorry she got caught . But she has not reached remorse.

She fucks another man for most of your marriage , and she is crying victim because of some hurtful things you said to her, out of extreme pain,and being drunk.

Look, should you have said those things? Some of them, maybe not . But some of them you most likely meant. And that's ok. It is ok to vent your anger. Your rage. As the shock wears off, you will be very angry. Sharing that anger with your WS is a necessary part of allnof this. How a WS handles that anger is very indicative of their ability to be a good candidate for reconciliation.

The pain and anger of a BS is both predictable, and preventable. These are part of the consequences to her abuse.

And, yes, it is abuse. She needs to accept that she has been extremely abusive toward you for most of your marriage.

One more thing. I highly suggest you read all of her posts before you make any decisions about letting her come back home. Ok, you told her you wouldn't. You are allowed to change your mind. I think it will give you persepctive.

HBF,

Lastly, i feel guilty. She told me some more of what i said that drunken angry night - and i was terrible. I told her she had no soul......i fell down the stairs drunk (which i don't remember at all). She said there are some things i said that hurt to her core and she will never unhear.....i told her that wasn't my intention, and wasn't me talking but the alcohol, which then made me feel like a hypocrite.

Please do not feel guilty. I do not say that because I think ripping people a 'new one' is an ideal way to communicate, but because what you did - getting hammered and then putting your pain into words - was a primal scream that you were entitled to after what she did to you.

You needed that release. And before you start beating yourself up too much, remember who abused you so much that you ended up in that condition. If your wife did that to you, then where is the injustice in her coming face to face with what she did to you?

Now, I am not saying you should feel proud of what you did or said. However, I also think that feeling guilty is just as bad as that.

Your wife put you into that state, and rather than apologizing for what she had done to you after what she witnessed, she bellyached about how she heard some nasty words about her from a man she abused for years.

How self-absorbed and lacking in empathy is that woman? Sure, no-one likes being berated or shouted at, but you were acting in a way that I am sure you would never have done if you had not been abused by her. She has to take responsibility for what she did to you, not complain because she reduced you to the state that you were in.

You had a right to let fly, and you did. If your wife didn't like it, so what? If she didn't cheat for years, it never would have happened. You needed to do what you did, because of what she did. What did she expect? Chocolates, flowers, and a 'thank you' card?

However, now that you have unleashed Hell on her, it would be good if you could lay off the booze in future for any future meetings, so that you are thinking clearly and analyzing what she says and does.

I remember reading a post from a member who said that his WW began to understand what she had done to him only when he screamed at her and absolutely lost it in a way that she had never seen before.

You are a good person who has been abused. Do not be too hard on yourself because your reaction to that abuse was a bit ragged. That is what abuse does to a person.

You did what you needed to do, but in future try to limit the booze and make a plan for what you want or need to discuss when you are face-to-face, and do not stray from it.

I think you made a good decision, and I'm sorry it was so painful for you. I still remember how awkward and counter-intuitive it felt to take actions that were right for me shortly after DDay. It's because we're still scared... and we're still scared because we're worried that the relationship will end. Of course, in the face of adultery, that's just our codependence revealing itself. I hadn't realized. I had always thought of myself as the independent, self-reliant, lone wolf, sort I had been as a teen. This took me be surprise, and I ended up wrecked by my WH's betrayal.

I don't know the cause of your codependency, but I can share the cause of mine. It came from a rough childhood and disinterested, divorced/adversarial parents. It came from boyfriends who used me and dumped me. It came from abandonment. What people don't realize about infidelity is that, at its core, it IS an abandonment wound. Whether your spouse "leaves" you for a day, a month, or four years, you've been abandoned. This is one of those things we view emotionally as an existential threat. It's leftover from infancy, when we cried by instinct for our mothers because separation meant death. This fear of abandonment is built in.

So, if you're like me and you have a bunch of previous abandonments, then you finally meet your Safe Person and make them your haven, it's codependent as fuck and you just don't realize it until the bottom falls out, you've been betrayed, and you fall to pieces. All those old abandonment scars emotionally fuel the infidelity story, but you don't know it, because the hurt is subconscious. Stuff you can't even remember can be amplifying the pain.

Anyway, that's one example of how a person becomes codependent and how it can add to our inner turmoil. Your mileage may vary, but that codependency is coming from somewhere. Once you've broken through to the source, it's a matter of self-trust that you CAN handle your life and that you CAN be satisfied and happy with who you are.

She asked me if she could get a hug, and i just said no. She then seemed rejected, and sort of stormed out. I know it was her way of protecting herself - its what she does.

This is unacceptable. YOU are the victim of her prolonged and sustained perfidy. If she was truly feeling sorry for the things she's done to you, or had any inclination of the pain you're feeling, she'd be thinking of YOU, not of herself. And yeah, I know that makes it sound like I expect Jesus from her, but if you are a person of empathy and you take a walk in the other guy's shoes... you just don't feel angry and affronted because your victim doesn't want to hug you. You feel sad. You feel sorry for what you did.

I heard her say a lot of different things she is going through. I heard her talk in ways i have never heard. She sounds like she has been reflecting, and truly digging deep. On the flip side, i still don't think she realizes the depth of the hurt she has caused.

I don't either. There's no comparison of what she's going through to what you're going through. Betrayal strikes right to the core. It questions our true beliefs, our life choices, our competence. We wonder what love means, if it means anything at all. Some of us question our faith. How could a loving God allow someone to use us this way, allow us to be hurt so much? This is the kind of hurt which causes existential crisis and asks us if we still want to live in such a world. Your WW can't compare her abusive betrayal of your trust and how that makes her feel to anything you're going through right now. So, what I'm hearing is "what about me, me, me??"

Lastly, i feel guilty. She told me some more of what i said that drunken angry night - and i was terrible. I told her she had no soul......i fell down the stairs drunk (which i don't remember at all). She said there are some things i said that hurt to her core and she will never unhear.....i told her that wasn't my intention, and wasn't me talking but the alcohol, which then made me feel like a hipocrite.

I'm glad you got off the sauce and that you plan to stay away from it. Over the course of the next year, you're going to be in an uphill battle to stave off depression, and alcohohol is... a depressant. What's worse, and what some people don't realize until it's too late, is that it causes something of an anxiety rebound. IOW, you drink because you're feeling anxious, but next day, the anxiety comes back double strength. When you're already anxious and suffering, that's worse than any hangover you could experience.

In terms of the things you said that your WW claims she "can't unhear". Good. There are some things she needed to hear. Do you think that any BS here hasn't wondered if their cheater lacked a soul? The verbiage is serious because the injury is serious and so are the hundreds of daily choices which caused the pain. And yeah, I'm sure you probably said some things that were particularly hurtful to hear but that doesn't mean she didn't need to hear them. If you used pejorative terms to describe her behavior, so what? It's not worse than the actual behavior. In terms of any actual verbal abuse, yeah... we don't do that. But you've taken steps to manage your emotions and elected to give yourself some time to work through them. You haven't made a habit out of verbally horse-whipping your WW. Good enough. Forgive yourself. It's not like you fucked someone else behind her back for half your marriage.

It might not feel like it, but you are handling your situation like a rock star right now. Yeah, it feels messy in places, but you've got the right attitude toward healing and toward holding on to your humanity. So, forgive yourself for not being perfect after you've been stabbed in the back. You're doing a helluva lot better than most of us at this stage.

Strength and healing to you.

OMG ChamomileTea - you make so much sense, and are making me feel better. Thank you.

It is funny how much of the description of a roller coaster really rings true to me - i feel like one moment i am angry as hell and the next, im feeling guilty about something that i wish i had said or done differently.....but i will say, i truly mean this This time, i know none of it was my fault. That is what is so damn different. Cause for those 8 months i gave her every opportunity to be true.....its why the affair doesn't hurt as bad as the lying about it.....cause over the last 8 months i had started to make peace with the fact that she fucked him for years. I knew it was years - just not how many. I had thought it ended long before it did. I was fed a bulshit story about how it ended....and those lies just hurt.

I know writing the timeline was hard for her. I did truly see it in her eyes that she is digging deep. I loved the analogies above about her taking a baby step, or that she fucked up for 6 years and it takes 6 years to fix it - so i don't claim that this is huge by any stretch. And, i am also taking it with a grain of salt because of some of the other behaviors.....and the fact that i know im vulnerable and maybe not seeing things as clearly as i should.

Right now, i am trying to be realistic, and keep my eye on me. I am excited to start IC next week. looking forward to having a place to get some things out!

HBF: I suggest you take your time. After reading your thread, you sound very much invested in "hoping your WW gets it".

Take a step back, and lets just say she does get it 100%. You still need to work on YOU. So many Betrayed Men jump to try and fix things, in this case the marriage. There is no marriage to fix. That is now tarnished and you are trying to glue all those pieces back, when you should be focusing on you.

6 yrs to be cheated on is a long time. I agree, the 2 week NC and separation is going to be good. Take that time to learn more about yourself. Not reasons you got cheated on, but who you want to be. What your next 5-10 yrs will look like, and if you will want your WW to join you on that ride. Don't be afraid of the loss of the marriage, b/c half of your marriage was fake anyway. After DDay, she continued to cheat on you. You need time now to reflect on your own. At the end of the day, the decision is yours and not hers. Having no kids means a much cleaner break too should you take that route. Leave your options open, and just see how things go.

The fact that she is more worried that you called her names says a lot. She cheated for 6 years and wants to be treated better than she treated you.

However, keep in mind what you say can and more than likely will be used against you.

I'm glad to hear you're starting IC next week. I put it off for two years thinking I could handle it, and what could someone else tell me about me that I didn't already know, etc. I just ended up suffering for longer than I had to. We NEED to talk, and it has to be to someone who doesn't have an agenda. And we need someone to tell us to climb down off our own backs, because the temptation to turn that pain inward is so big, we sometimes end up allowing our inner critic to run roughshod over us. Somehow, it feels safer and more under control than to let that anger target our WS. Even in suffering, we're still trying to protect that relationship. It helps to have someone in your corner who will call you out when you're too hard on yourself. Even when we KNOW that it wasn't our fault, we find dozens of ways to punish ourselves as if it were.

So, ahead of your meeting, consider spending some time thinking about the goals you'd like to achieve. Most therapists will ask about that at your first session. Obviously, breaking through your codependence is a goal, and in keeping with that train of thought, what does your identity look like separate from the marriage? Who do you want to be when you've arrived? At my first session, I realized I had practically no real identity left, not much ME there in terms of what makes me excited about life. As codependents, we don't realize how much of our "me" we've lost until some therapist we've just met asks us what our passion is. I liked reading, gardening, knitting, and my passion for life??? It turned out to be a big freaking blank. I had spent 30 years of my life basically keeping the peace, thinking my WH was just "high maintenance" instead of a covert narcissist.

So, really dig into what you're wanting to accomplish for yourself. And for the first time in years... feel completely free to be utterly self-centered. No matter what happens in your marriage, R or D, you have to start with a healthy YOU. Getting back to the basics of your self-identity can help you achieve it.

Thank you for your comments. I actually do know exactly who i am outside the marriage. Its odd - one of the comments she made was that she finally realized she was two completely separate people, and she doesn't know why yet but that she realizes it - and that's how i feel right now. Because, i am extremely successful, and have been quickly ascending the ranks in my career. I have hobbies, friends outside of those shared with my ww - i love to read i play an instrument, and im working on an advanced degree online - so i have that one covered :-) - Its just that my entire relationship feels like its bigger than all of that - because that's how i always made it. So i feel like two people as well, because that whole side now is total shit.

I think that's why i feel so much like i don't know what the hell i want - because there are these two opposing forces and the rollercoaster of emotions.

I did have a bit of an aha moment a few minutes ago i was proud of. I was watching a video on youtube about codependent people and how to identify them, etc. - and i immediately started identifying with some of it, and i was thinking "man, i should send the to her"....and then i realized in that instant, that THAT was me trying to fix her still. I can't. its not up to me to do that. I don't need to even THINk that way, never mind the NC for 2 weeks, even without that, i can't make her see any light - she has to herself. Sometimes i eellike i keep getting the same epiphanies all over again and that i just don't remember them - but damn it feels good when something little like that clicks.

I started journaling the other night - something i have never really done before. It has been a nice outlet too.

[This message edited by HurtbyBestFrnd67 at 11:13 PM, May 15th (Friday)]

See, I told you... rock star!

Having your identity intact puts you light years ahead in healing.

I think the sense of duality is normal. It will resolve once you've broken through the CoD. And since you already have a good self-identity, you just keep feeding it and making it stronger. Once the CoD is resolved, you can then choose vulnerability on YOUR terms, meaning you decide what you'll share and who you'll share it with. IOW, you're not so much choosing between these dual personalities, you're taking the strong one and just absorbing the HEALTHY bits of the other, not the bits which kept you saying "yes" even though your partner was clearly toxic.

Strength brother, one day at a time.

Buffer

Hang in there. Just steer your course and see it through. It's going to be hell for a while.

Great job, Hurt! Having been here a while, I've seen many BSes go down that road of managing their WS's work and it rarely works. Usually the WS disappoints them or learns just enough to keep one step ahead of them to pretend to be remorseful until the next DDay hits. And the few who succeed do not feel good about dragging their WS kicking and screaming to R. They usually still have issues with lying and selfish behavior from their WS years later. It is bad for R to try and control your WS's healing. It's a continuation of a parent-child relationship that continues well past R taking hold. The WS either needs to step up as an equal or step out.

So i haven't posted in quite some time since WW and I are on NC. Just wanted to say I am doing good. We are ending NC on Wednesday - i know what I want to say. I won't say more here as I don't know if she is reading this or not - but I have had some clarity and am doing well focusing on me.

More to come.

If you are feeling good, maybe it's because NC is helping you heal.

Maybe your brain is telling you something your heart hasn't quite caught up to yet. That this marriage is over. That you can,and will,be happy without her.