SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

One thing you’ve learned is cheaters lie a lot.

Her words are meaningless. Actions long term are the real truth. Upfront she’ll promise you the moon.

Right now she’s only trying to avoid consequences for her affair. It’s a all about her. You don’t matter that much.

[This message edited by Marz at 3:21 AM, June 25th (Friday)]

Good for you man.

What a shit show your wife has brought onto your family.

I suppose she was looking for a little drama in her SAHM life. Got in spades, husband and boyfriend fighting over her. I better watch what I say about your wife...

Keep your chin up. That was quite a night you had. I know it sucked but you did far better than many would have, you did really well.

You've got kids, I get it, but man you got your work cut out trying to repair this marriage.

ASoreLoser,

You have done well. It’s not surprising that she lied a lot during D day. She will not be R candidate at that instant.

What I suggest is give yourself and your WW some time. Others might have better suggestions, but tell your WW you need a minimum of a week of no communication, except that she MUST tell you of any, any attempt of communication from the OM. She must not respond to him. He might try to use your WW to have revenge on you for “breaking his marriage “.

Tell your WW to read “How to help your spouse heal from your affair”. Don’t promise any R. Don’t tell her about this site and that you’re posting here.

The OM is blaming you for his pending D, but all this mess is 100% their fault.

Aside from the fight, telling the OBS helped. Your WW saw (hopefully) that he’s just a married guy who had multiple affairs.

What was her reaction when she learned that? When you told her what he told you?

One day at a time. You’ll get through this.

It's bizarre to see and hear your wife in a state of fear. As husbands, it's our duty - a privilege even, to protect, serve, and satisfy our spouses. I saw her beg and plead. It hurts to see her like that

I agree with that, I felt the same with my XWW.I remember thinking… “she’s destroying her life and for what?”

You feel protective towards your WW but it’s her actions that are hurting you. It’s like having one foot in the oven and the other in the freezer.

One day at a time.

ShutterHappy, She knew that their marriage was crumbling. She knew that AP and his wife were on bad terms and I think she capitalized on it.

oldmanchris, Before, I was on a loop. Visualizing all the ways how my confrontation could go. I would just stare at a random thing and there will go my mind scheming and calculating, and weighing my heart between my mind. It felt like a really huge shit that built up because I just refused to go to the bathroom. Every time my wife is on the phone, I would ignore it but deep down through all that denial, I knew that in her mind she was someplace else with the AP despite being in the same room with me.

Although I still feel grief and intense love for her, for a brief moment I felt justice! and victory. Right now I finally had the opportunity to live a real life, but I know I'll have to come back to that gruesome place. Though, I know when I leave again for the second time, there will be no coming back.

Oh yeah, my brawl with AP was the!-ra!-peu!-tic! My dream of beating him up came true and he gifted it to me. I still feel anger but a lot less now. I realized that AP was not some superman that my wife fell in love with whom I can't compete. But he was just a sleazy douchebag that needed to be put in his place. It does feel good breaking his nose, I ruined that greasy POS face! This one is for all you guys out there!

I just can't take a break! My wife just told our kids that Mommy and Daddy are fighting. I got a phone call from my wife and she handed the phone to my oldest (6M). He asked me when I was going back. I'm pissed off. What do you guys think? Is this orchestrated? Am I reading too much on to the things she says and does?

Oh, and fuck you, Phillip!

Oh, and fuck you, Phillip!

I think your WW is using your kids to get you back home.

I suggest that you calmly give her the ground rules. For example:

- NC with the OM

- cool down period

- she must educate herself on how to fix this (the book I mentioned)

- Ask her for a detailed timeline.

- make sure that she understands that it’s the lies that kills the marriage. She MUST stop lying.

Just remember, Reconciliation does NOT start when the WS agrees to do the work to rebuild. It doesn’t EVEN START UNTIL they have nearly completed that work.

The right way to approach this, if you want to give her a chance, and you don’t have to, is to tell her the D will be proceeding no matter what, and her actions during and after that process will show you whether or not there is a chance for more than just coparenting in the future.

In the meantime if you are working on demands, here’s a handy list of things that can often go into a rebuilding plan. Ignore what doesn’t apply to you.

Good luck.

Conditions to consider Reconciliation

1) NC LETTER: Together we write a No Contact letter that we send to your boyfriend. No signs of affection toward him will be relayed at all. It will Be matter of fact and remove him from your life forever.

2) NO CONTACT. Meaning if you work with him you quit your job and find another so you can never see him or run into him again. Real ghosting. Blocking him from everything. If He tries to contact you then you do not respond and you tell me. If he persists our lawyer will send him a cease and desist.

3) TIMELINE: You write out a full timeline of your Affair. Every little detail. Each day you communicated, what was said, even if you were inappropriate and raunchy. The days you were alone together, the physically touching. What you touched, what he touched, how long, and what you said to each other. All sex acts are described. Every single thing. I need to know the truth before I can try and reconcile from it. We will sit together and review it and you’ll openly answer questions about it. You know the truth, I need to know it as well as you do if we are going to have a chance to save this marriage.

4) APOLOGY: You'll write me a letter of apology explaining why you think you did what you did and what it would mean to you to have me stay and work on the marriage. It should include how you think you made me feel during all this time.

5) TIMELINE: Once we have reviewed the timeline and letter you will agree to a polygraph to confirm you have told me the truth.

6) IC: We will both do Individual Counseling. You to figure out why you were willing and able to go beyond our marriage vows. And me to work thru the pain you have caused me.

7) MC: At a later point we will start Marriage Counseling to work on what was missing from the Marriage. But only after we both work on ourselves first. I decide when this starts

8) EXPOSURE:. The true nature of the affair will be exposed to both our families and appropriate close friends. They need to be able to help us make it thru this Reconciliation. Doing this alone with just the two of us and no one else knowing is doomed for failure. If you are truly Remorseful you will be the one to admit what you have done. I will be there to let them know that even though they are probably mad at you for what you have done but I ask that they support you as a couple while you are trying to work through this painful time in your marriage

9)INFORMING OTHER SPOUSE: If your boyfriend has a wife or Girlfriend you will help me contact this spouse. You will not warn him about this as that would be breaking No Contact and if you do we are through.

10) INTIMACY: Intimacy will be on my terms. Whatever I need to heal in whatever fashion you deem necessary. You cannot be forced to do anything you don’t want to, however, I have the right to decide if denying me the intimacy I need is a deal breaker for me.

11) POSTNUP: We will look into implementing a postnup that ensures my financial security and terms of parenting if you ever cheat again.

12) TRANSPARENCY: You will provide open access to all your technology from now on. On demand. No time to delete stuff. I will agree to do the same. If you dont then I assume you are obviously more interested in having secrets than continuing your Marriage. I may also ask for another phone set up as yours so I can actively monitor your activity

13) OUTSIDE RELATIONSHIPS: No more going out without each other unless otherwise approved. Confirming your whereabouts and who you are with will be required as needed.

14) INTERACTION: No more meeting alone with a man. No lunches, dinners, drinks whatever. Social Happy Hours (outside of actual work functions) are to be attended together or not attended at all.

15) READING: We both will do reading on infidelity and we will use them to discuss our marriage. This includes materials such as "Not just friends" and "how to help your spouse heal from your affair”

16) STD: STD testing for both of us with Visual proof of the results is required. And we will DNA test the kids and you will pay for it by selling something of value to only you or you working additionally to defray the cost.

17) FUTURE INFIDELITY: No new affairs. If so D papers will be served immediately. No lies about relationships with others any more. If so we are done.

18) COMMUNICATION: Any questions about the affair are to be answered honestly for the rest of our lives together.

19) CONFIDANTS: No conversations about our marriage or any other marriage with another man/woman unless we discuss it first and I confirm that it’s ok to talk to that specific person about it.

20) OUR HOME: No one comes in to our home without both us knowing.

21) COMMUNICATION- No secrets, no matter how hard it will be to hear. Discuss all attractions. Discuss all third party attention. Discuss all feelings good and bad. Be honest with yourself and aware of your feelings, then communicate that to your spouse.

22) CHARACTER: We don't do or say anything in absence of one another that we wouldn't do in the others presence.

23) AFFECTION: we work to show each other moments of tenderness, acts of passion, the creation of new memories, all thru time spent together.

24) ENEMIES: You drop any friends or family members that encouraged or helped you hide the affair. Complete NC with them.

25) OWNING THE A: Ownership of your actions during your affair and no more blameshifting or excuses for your actions.

26)ACTIVELY ENGAGING I need to be treated better than your boyfriend. Whatever you did for him you will have to go further for me. We together will discuss what that means.

27) FINANCIALS: If there were major expenses incurred by you during the A and spent on the AP then you as the Wayward Spouse must find a way to pay back the Marriage for those expenses either by taking on another job or by selling something of value only to you. This will show me that you are ALL IN.

28) EXPOSURE OF GIFTS: any gifts given by the AP are to be destroyed or sold with the funds used for charity or other purpose not benefiting the WS

29) REMOVING MEMORIES: any clothes worn during the affair or household items used (eg couches, beds) should be sold and replaced only by the WS raising the funds on their own (eg second job or selling something of value only to them)

30) SYMBOLS: You ask your betrayed spouse if they want you to continue to wear your wedding ring. It’s up to them. If they feel your actions have ended the M and therefore don’t deserve to wear it until you’ve helped them heal and made them feel safe in the relationship again then you take it off. Perhaps wear a ring that is different than a wedding ring in its place if that’s ok with your betrayed spouse. Either give the wedding ring to them or store it safely until someday they feel comfortable enough for you to wear it again. When that day comes they may want new rings as the old one represents a M that no longer exists. You should discuss this with them when the time comes.

The feeling of grief, hurt, and pain that I’m feeling are purely human constructs. These are “complex” human emotions haphazardly labeling animalistic primal urges of anger, jealousy, and rage. What she did was animalistic too; selfish fulfillment of need. Forgiveness, however, is what separates us from being described as "animals". The ability to overcome these constructs allows us to show true love, through kindness. It is the unique capacity of people. Some people forgive, but some people don't and that's because some people are worthy of your forgiveness and some people aren't. I will survive this like that antelope. I know someday, somehow, I will be able to forgive - because I am human. Today? I just want to forget.

It's an interesting metaphor. The web of life is of course more complex that you describe. Birds that are brood parasites, like the cowbird who secretly pushes an egg of another bird species out of its nest and then lays one of its own eggs in its place for the unwitting (other species) mother to brood and hatch. Or lions who kill cheetah cubs gratuitously. There are outright parasites, like ticks or tapeworms. No species wants to be a host for these. Then there are viruses, which aren't even whole life forms at all, just clusters of genetic matter that somehow still manage to figure out how to travel from animal to animal, across continents and around the globe, forging life by altering the actual DNA within the cells of their host to build themselves an artificial environment, regardless whether this ends up killing the host.

Bottom line is that nature is opportunistic. This is what Kurt Cobain meant with his line "Nature is a whore" (in "In Bloom").

But I digress. Humans as animals are relatively weak and defenseless compared to other animals. We have over the aeons developed complex social webs because we need to unite in large social groups to preserve the ability of individuals to survive and reproduce.

Among other things, our infants take a long time to gestate. They are born premature compared to other animals, meaning they need parental nurturing for a long time comparatively (it's because our large brains make for big heads -- mothers must birth them early so they fit out through the pelvis -- the alternative would be human women who are giants compared to human men). The need for many years of parental child nurturing has caused us as a species to develop a pattern of long-term faithful pair bonding.

Even that pair bonding, though, varies among cultures and nations. Some cultures solve that puzzle by forming tightly knit extended family communities where every adult takes responsibility for every child. Here in the US, we started this nation by pilgrims and explorers leaving their home, engaging on a perilous journey across the ocean, and clawing out a meager existence in a harsh land. Later, migrants paired up and put everything they owned into a Calistoga to cross the continent. To this day, young people pair up and move thousands of miles for a new opportunity far from parents and extended family. As a nation, we are romantic, adventurous, ready to cast off to distant lands with nowt but our mate. It makes our American personality especially focused on the sanctity of the monogamous pair bond of marriage -- because in a real sense, for many married people, the spouse is all you've got.

Here on SI we typically define "forgiveness" as the end of a desire for revenge. My sense from your posts is that you've already in a way forgiven your WW, insofar as you don't have a desire, for example, to engage in an RA.

The real question is whether, going forward, you try to remain married or pursue a divorce. That's not a question of forgiveness. For a newly minted BH, it's generally a question of choosing the lesser of evils.

I don't believe I have read any thread here by a BH who divorced his WW and later regretted it. You should keep that in mind. My own personal journey through infidelity was a bit like yours, with statements by her about what a fantastic man the AP was, but in addition, my wayward dumped me for the AP. I was shattered at the time, utterly broken, a simpering mess. Over the long run, though, it was by far the best outcome. I dated around, had some sexual fun for a few years, then met a wonderful woman who has been my wife for years. Life has been good.

If you stay, the reality that your WW brought this man into your marriage, literally into your home where he assaulted you physically and boasted of his sexual exploits with your wife, that will forever be a third party to your marriage. Do you really want that?

Keep in mind that, because of the kids, as a divorced man she will remain a part of your life at some level, while you co-parent. To that end, parents who are child-focused can successfully co-parent and the kids will be fine.

Which leads me to this:

I just can't take a break! My wife just told our kids that Mommy and Daddy are fighting. I got a phone call from my wife and she handed the phone to my oldest (6M). He asked me when I was going back. I'm pissed off. What do you guys think? Is this orchestrated?

This is orchestrated, manipulative, and just pure evil by her. She is following the WW handbook to the letter. Minimize, DARVO, manipulate. Keep in mind that, for many months, her default with you has been to lie and manipulate. That little bit of diversionary theater she orchestrated on Father's Day? So she could continue to pine for her long lost man, hoping to get her ducks in a row with him so she could leave you?

The best advice is to ignore all of the spew that emanates from her lying rictus at present. A liar does not become a truth-teller overnight. She's even lying to her own children.

I want to remind you of a reality: the AP, the man whom she has earnestly told, in texts and in pillow talk, that he is "the one" for her, he's about to become a divorced man. Free to pursue your WW in earnest. Think about that.

When should I tell my wife my demands? Like therapy, IC, and stuff?

What's next?

That's not where your head should be at this point. Focus on getting yourself out of infidelity. It sounds like your WW is not anywhere near R material at this point, maybe not ever. Even if she is, for a lot of BH, the emasculation and sexual humiliation from the raw facts of the A are too much to ever overcome in terms of remaining married. That's a completely normal and fair position to take. Telling him that he's the one who got away is essentially telling you that she settled when she married you, that you're Plan B. Do you really want to reconcile knowing this? If you love her, or who she was, set her free to find her Plan A, and set yourself free to find a woman who will regard you as Plan A.

As I said above, assuming you pursue divorce, she will remain in your life. The AP is about to become a single man. Your WW has some choosing to do. If she wants you, she'll eschew him and come after you. You can then be in the catbird seat and decide whether she is still what you want.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:39 AM, June 25th (Friday)]

Great update, you handled it well.

My wife just told our kids that Mommy and Daddy are fighting. I got a phone call from my wife and she handed the phone to my oldest (6M). He asked me when I was going back.

This is pure manipulation.

First you need to determine what you want, R or D. If you think this is a dealbreaker for you then just file and have her served, you may always stop/delay the process if she comes around, shows true remorse and is willing to do the heavy lifting to restore the M she destroyed with her huge betrayal, that would take years with no guarantees. If you decide to give R a chance (not now, way too soon), here are some of the basics:

1) NC FOREVER, she must send an NC FOREVER text to AP, short and to the point (no sweet goodbyes), make sure you watch her hit "send", then block him, she also needs to tell you if he initiates contact.

2) Demand she gets tested for STDs/STIs, full panel, yes she's been playing russian roulette with your health during a pandemic. Also depending on the situation, a pregnancy test should be in order. The walk of shame to the doctor's office helps with remorse.

3) She needs to write a complete and detailed timeline of the A, subject to a polygraph, how it started, how often they had sex, when, where, did he come to your house, in your own bed, etc. If you want to know all the sex acts/positions then she needs to disclose that too. Again tell her she will take a polygraph test, if she agrees make sure you go through with it, you may even get the infamous "parking lot confession" right before it, still go through with it.

4) She needs to offer FULL ON DEMAND access to her phone and all electronic devices FOREVER, no questions asked.

5) Talk to your lawyer about an enforceable postnuptial agreement in your favor in case she cheats again in the future (no alimony/she doesn't touch your retirement). She would need to sign it.

6) Have her read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, and How to Help your Spouse Heal from your Affair" by Linda McDonald.

7) You already did the exposure to her parents and family members, that alone helps, but make sure she apologizes to them too, they were also betrayed, again it helps with remorse, no remorse, no chance to successfully R.

8) She needs to go to IC with someone who specializes in infidelity to find out her "whys", how a married woman decided to betray her family.

If she refuses to do any of the above just let the D process run its course and get out of infidelity, you deserve much better than a proven cheater and a liar. Keep posting frequently, the collective wisdom of SI can help you go through this difficult situation, we've "seen" it play out THOUSANDS of times.

Thank you for sharing (your experience will help the next victim of infidelity).

I admire your courage throughout this whole ordeal. And I'm sorry for your pain.

Your wife is and will be in self preservation mode for a long long time. It's typical for the affair to be 100% fantasy (so she just fell off a cliff). She never (never) thought you'd find out or get hurt or that divorce was in the cards.

What you stated about you feeling sorry for her is what is called the white knight syndrome. It's a common reaction and one of the many emotions you need to neutralize before making a decision to R or D.

IMO it's a good strategy to let the divorce proceed. You can always put it on hold. You can even divorce her (for closure) ...date her...and remarry much later (yep we've seen that too).

The divorce goes smoother and the cheater more cooperative if there's even a slight chance that you two will reconnect some day.

Finally, I can't advise you as to whether to D or R. That is 100% your decision and not subject to anyone else's approval.

Among other things, I suggest she read:

"How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful"

by Linda J. MacDonald

She needs to understand what she did to you (right not she's 100% focused on herself, her shame and her loss).

Telling your child that you're fighting and putting him on the phone is despicable. Pure manipulation. For a 6 year old??? Just disgusting. Do not fall for it.

If you can, schedule therapy for your children and find out the best way to give them this news. She clearly doesn't plan to the responsibility for her actions and you can't make her. But you can decide what you will do next based on her actions. So far she is still lying and trying to control you and the situation. She is no where near being ready for R.

She found all the time she needed to figure out how to have an affair and lie. Let her do the work of figuring out how to fix what she broke. Her tears are for herself. She never expected to face actual consequences and she is flailing about trying to make the consequences go away. You protect you because she is NOT going to protect you. And it appears she is also not going to protect the kids.

I guess the confrontation turned out a little differently than you thought, but you still handled it well.

I recommend that you do not engage further with the POS AP. He's really shit and you don't want it messing with you. It's not that he didn't deserve what happened to him, but you shouldn't stoop to his level. And your WW doesn't deserve to be fought for, she's the one who put you in this situation.

You said "that OBW suspected a few hours before you told her", could your WW inform AP that you know their A?

All your wife's apologies, cries, beggings don't make any sense. She is currently in shock and in a rush of being caught.

It's too early to make a demand for both of you. First, you need to determine what your intention is. If you think you can't live with this and you're going to choose D, you don't need to make the necessary demands for R from her. But you can make the demands necessary in both cases like an STD, paternity tests etc. You may find the paternity test unnecessary since their A started after the birth of your kids, but a cheater cannot be trusted and you show her impressively how your trust is lost.

Other demands can be related to your kids continuing their normal lives. Oh, and don't allow her to use your kids to get you back.

Oh yeah, my brawl with AP was the!-ra!-peu!-tic! My dream of beating him up came true and he gifted it to me. I still feel anger but a lot less now. I realized that AP was not some superman that my wife fell in love with whom I can't compete. But he was just a sleazy douchebag that needed to be put in his place. It does feel good breaking his nose, I ruined that greasy POS face! This one is for all you guys out there!

You referred to yourself as the antelope earlier, but it's quite clear you're the lion my man.

All the betrayed took pleasure in both Philip offering you his nose and you breaking it!

ASL glad you were finally able to confront her!!

Moving forward, in my humble opinion, I would NOT require her to send a NC letter to this POS.

Why? You stated your wife told him "he's the one that got away". Well it looks like the OBS is going to divorce this loser.

So he's no longer going to be married. Who cares what your wife says right now. It's just words. If this is a deal breaker than just divorce her.

However if you're even thinking about the possibility of attempting reconciliation I would want to know who your wife would pick? You or this loser?

On her own free volition.

Again she's crying and apologizing because she was caught!! She's feeling sorry for herself.

She's still lying to you.

So where's her thought process going to be when things settle down? When she learns that piece of shit loser Phillip will now be a free man and they can be together and he'll no longer be the "one who got away"??

I would NOT force her to do anything if you're thinking about possibly reconciling with her.

She's come to the crossroad.

Oh She's crying for you to not divorce her?

I would want to know for sure (before even attempting reconciliation) that this is what she TRULY wants in heart and mind???

I would want to know if she's willing to blow up her family and now make her fantasy boy not just a dream but reality. Yes she played around having an affair and put her family/marriage/world at risk in doing so but now that everything has been exposed is running into his arms what she desperately wanted all along??

Her words about any of this (him, you, your marriage, details of affair, what she wants, what she's willing to do, how truly sorry she is, going to IC, MC, giving you a timeliness, answering all if your questions etc etc) won't mean JACK SHIT if at the end of the day (despite everything that's gone down) she wants to be with him and the only way you're EVER going to know for sure is to sit back and see what she does.

I understand this is about what YOU want to do. If thus in fact is a deal breaker move forward and divorce her.

However if you're thinking about the possibility of R with her she may do all the right things (by her actions and words)...Send a NC letter to him, give you a time-line, give you access to her cell, Facebook etc, go to IC, do what she can to help you heal, do everything that appears she's potentially a safe partner, but despite all if this, you are ALWAYS going to wonder were you plan B? Does she TRULY want to be with him?

She may do all the right things to save her marriage because she doesn't want everyone to know that she didn't just have an affair but she actually took it further and blew up her kids world to be with this other man.

She may do all of this to save face and eventually down the line spin it that she desperately tried to make it work with you but you're never going to be able to forgive her for the affair and now it's time to divorce and it won't be because of her but it will be both of your fault.

So if it's me, I'm sitting back (if the possibility of R is even a remote possibility) and seeing what my lying cheating wife does with her actions.

POS LOSER or me?

No begging, or forcing her to do anything.

If you go the R route and you require her to do all if this upfront you're ALWAYS GOING TO WONDER what's truly in her heart and there is NO WAY I would allow myself to live one single day having this hanging over my head.

You have gotten very good advice, so I don't have much to add. But as someone currently embroiled in a very contentious custody battle, I urge you to document that conversation where she put your six year old on the phone. Also document any other instances where she is using the kids to manipulate you, or inserting them into any of this at all. A judge will not look on that kindly.

Please tell your wife that she is behaving like an atrocious, spoiled child. She’s a parent. She supposed to care about the health and happiness of her children. She’s not supposed to put them in the middle of grown-up stuff. Tell her to grow up and then maybe she can make decent decisions

ASoreLoser,

Earlier you stated

To those wondering, I didn't hire a private detective. I know enough to access her phone and computer. I have her phone history records, texts, videos sent to each other by both of them, withdrawals from our bank account taken during her "adventures" with OM, locations during this time (several confirming she was at an expensive hotel and at his rental).

Are you still able to monitor her communication/texts remotely? If so, this should provide good intelligence on whether she's shutting the door on the AP or continues to engage.

By the way, it was despicable for your wife to weaponize your six year old. You need to put a stop to that ASAP.

ASL,

It seems your wife is using your kids to get in touch with you. That's emotional blackmail! Stand your ground, brother!
All the best!

Experience shows that She thinks she can save her marriage by lying. Therefore she only admits to what she thinks you know.

Never admit what you know.

Inform her to provide a timeline subject to a polygraph test. T

he prospect of the test discourages further lies and withholding information.

Also, Inform her that further details may make it difficult to R - but any further lies or withholding information will quarantee divorce.