SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's been a while and I thought this might be timely for some.

All APs while active in an affair exhibit some degree of narcissism. This is different than a lifetime pattern of sociopathic behavior. When looking at this article, it is important to take into account the person's behavior throughout their lifetime, as we can all appear narcissistic to some degree, at various times.

"Are You Involved With A Psychopath?"

Stop The Madness

By: Michael G. Conner, Psy.D

For most of us the idea of a psychopath conjures up images from movies like "Silence of The Lambs" and characters with names like "Hannibal Lector." Fortunately characters like Hannibal don’t really exist. Serial killers and people involved in ritual torture are rare, but psychopathic behavior is more common than you might think.

I have known several psychopaths in my life. The clearest case involved an older teen who had no sense of guilt. He could learn the rules, but he had no sense of conscience. The only thing that saved him was a mother who loved him, took him to counseling for years and spent a great deal of time patiently teaching him right from wrong. I remember a conversation where he told me, "People know when something is wrong because it feels wrong. I have to remember or be reminded that stealing from someone is wrong. I don’t feel bad if I take something."

Meeting this young boy changed my opinion of a psychopathic personality. Why? Because children with this condition are "emotionally blind." And while I do not excuse cruelty or criminal behavior, I have sympathy and appreciate how hard it is for some people to learn how to act responsibly. Without help, potentially psychopathic children will become adults who never remain attached to anyone or anything for long. They may end up living a "predatory" lifestyle, feeling little or no regret, and having little or no remorse - except when they are caught or about to be locked up. A psychopath is not necessarily a bad person. But they are prone to have problems with society, rules, expectations and relationships.

A psychopath will use people for excitement, entertainment, to build their self-esteem and they invariably value people in terms of their material value (e.g. money, property, comfort, etc..). They can involve and get other people into trouble quickly and they seem to have no regret for their actions. To date there is no checklist of behavior and symptoms that will tell you with certainty whether or not a person is a psychopath. But there are warning signs. The following warning signs are based on my experience but primarily research conducted by Robert Hare, Ph.D - the leading expert on the Psychopathic Personality.

Characteristics of a Psychopath

superficial charm

self-centered & self-important

need for stimulation & prone to boredom

deceptive behavior & lying

conning & manipulative

little remorse or guilt

shallow emotional response

callous with a lack of empathy

living off others or predatory attitude

poor self-control

promiscuous sexual behavior

early behavioral problems

lack of realistic long term goals

impulsive lifestyle

irresponsible behavior

blaming others for their actions

short term relationships

juvenile delinquency

breaking parole or probation

varied criminal activity

The idea that psychopaths eat people is a myth. In reality, a person with a psychopathic personality can lead what appears to be an ordinary life. They can have jobs, get married and they can break the law like anyone else. But their jobs and marriages usually don’t last and their life is usually on the verge of personal chaos. They are almost always in some kind of trouble or they are not far from it.

A psychopath is usually a subtle manipulator. They do this by playing to the emotions of others. They typically have high verbal intelligence, but they lack what is commonly referred to as "emotional intelligence". There is always a shallow quality to the emotional aspect of their stories. In particular they have difficulty describing how they felt, why they felt that way, or how others may feel and why. In many cases you almost have to explain it to them. Close friends and parents will often end up explaining to the psychopath how they feel and how others feel who have been hurt by him or her. They can do this over and over with no significant change in the person's choices and behavior. They don't understand or appreciate the impact that their behavior has on others. They do appreciate what it means when they are caught breaking rules or the law even though they seem to end up in trouble again. They desperately avoid incarceration and loss of freedom but continue to act as if they can get away with breaking the rules. They don't learn from these consequences. They seem to react with feelings and regret when they are caught. But their regret is not so much for other people as it is for the consequences that their behavior has had on them, their freedom, their resources and their so called "friends." They can be very sad for their self. A psychopath is always in it for their self even when it seems like they are caring for and helping others. The definition of their "friends" are people who support the psychopath and protect them from the consequence of their own antisocial behavior. Shallow friendships, low emotional intelligence, using people, antisocial attitudes and failure to learn from the repeated consequences of their choices and actions help identify the psychopath.

Psychopaths with low intelligence or a poor education seem to end up in jail more than ones with a higher education. The lack of emotional insight is the first good sign you may be involved with a psychopath. The second best sign is a history of criminal behavior in which a person does not seem to learn from their experience, but merely thinks about ways to not get caught.

So what happens to these poor kids if they don’t learn right from wrong? Parents with a child like this usually end up angry and frustrated. They will often shield their child from the consequences of their decisions and take the role of continuously trying to educate their child as to right and wrong. The child is always in trouble and doesn’t seem to learn. Their parents may begin to excuse their child's behavior believing their child will eventually "get it." When they don't, many parents resort to punishment. But what these children need is intensive guidance, instruction, training, choices, consequences and supervision. Severe and repeated punishment alone is the worst thing you can do. Letting a child like this run around unsupervised with violent and antisocial children is almost as bad. And child abuse is a sure way to create a social misfit or a monster.

There is a growing discussion among researchers to suggest there may be a genetic influence that creates a psychopathic personality. The psychopath may lack the ability to physically feel what others identify as the physical sensation of guilt. They can feel fear, anger, sadness in the moment but not guilt for what they did or what they are about to do. Some sociologists believe that a sexually promiscuous psychopath who can live off others is a survivor and may represent one of many genes for survival in the human species. Even more surprising has been the observation that many adult psychopaths do not seem to benefit from support, counseling or therapy and may in fact commit crimes again and sooner because of it. Research using brain scanning technology has revealed that the brain of a psychopath functions and processes information differently. One famous brain imaging study showed that psychopaths can remain calm looking photos of dead bodies in automobile accidents where as other people were clearly upset. They don't use their brain they way others do. This suggests that they may be physically different from normal people.

Are you involved with a psychopath? You may not know because they can be very charming and friendly until you get close and disappoint them. Don’t assume anyone is a psychopath based on their behavior alone. It is the pattern of their life and many other factors. Please don’t go around assuming or calling someone a psychopath just because they may have some of the warning signs. Get a professional opinion from a qualified mental health professional if you think you are involved with a psychopath.

Source: http://www.crisiscounseling.com/articles/psychopath.htm

This sounds like my h with the exception of the following:

juvenile delinquency

breaking parole or probation

varied criminal activity

The rest of the list fits both him and ow as does a lot of the examples.

Im not saying they are pscyhopaths (though I have said ow showed sociopathic behaviors), but the characteristics fit.

That said, h did feel badly when he thought about the time he threw beer bottles at whore (she threw them, too), but he never felt badly about the things he said or did to me. He didn't even feel bad when he got caught. Just tried to weasle out of it.

She only felt badly when she got caught. But she felt badly for herself and that she got caught.

sullymeishadomi,

The criminal element doesn't show up in all psychopaths. In fact, many of them will never commit a prosecutable crime. However, in those psychopaths who DO commit crimes, they are likely to be repeat offenders.

I think the lack of empathy is the biggest key, along with the manipulation and the lying.

one of my old best friends (guy) was a total psychopath. he was sooooo smart. i met my best friend in the world because she dated him...poor her.

we talked about this yesterday because of my WH's lying behavior, and one of the primary differences between someone like him and my WH is that in the case of my ex-friend....he had NO long term relationships left with friends anywhere. he seemed to live his life in 2-5 year "eras." ours ended with him ripping all of us off, his group of very close friends, repeatedly over the course of many months and finally disappearing.

my WH has some kind of problem with lying that goes beyond normal, and many of these characteristics, yet i would hesitate to put him in this category. he seems to feel empathy. i don't know anymore, but most of his close relationships are virtually life-long, and some of it just doesn't fit. it still scares me that he might just be that good.

To bring up the friend thing, h always says he has no friends. I see where he is coming from bc the people from his country (and those surrounding countries) that he associates with would stab you in the back after saying they were your bff. But I don't know if its that so much as he has no idea what its like to have friends. He even told me I had no friends. I may have no friends in NJ, but I have plenty of life long friends elsewhere. Friends I can trust and believe in (as they have shown me, tho they are angry with me at the moment for not ditching his ass).

Her on the other hand, is very socialble and has friends stemming from at least high school (she;s 41). But she can lie like I have never seen anyone lie. She's excellent at it. She has been a great teacher to my h. He's getting better at it.

The list you had were just on the dot with the description of both of them. That's why I feel he was right when he said that I couldn't comprehed how exact and made for each other they are. I now understand. I now believe it.

Does abuse come into this as well. Bc he's good at mental, emotional abuse.

[This message edited by sullymeishadomi at 3:05 PM, September 4th (Saturday)]

stretch13,

I believe that psychopathy is the extreme end of the narcissistic scale. Now, some narcissism is healthy, but not all. Many of the NPD characteristics are similar to the psychopath list. Here's more on that: http://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd-definition/menu-id-1471/

Also, the part about your BFFs guy living his life in 'increments' like that and using everybody in sight up before moving on- that's sociopathic!

sully,

Yes. Abuse does enter into it. In fact, lying and manipulation are abuse. Also, when a sociopath becomes physically abusive, that's a very dangerous situation.

I started learning about psychopaths because of XOW. She had told H people had called her that before. I learned that when I told him she sounded like a psychopath, while we were talking about her complete lack of empathy- and not just in the situation regarding us. We also believe that she deliberately passed on STDs. I guess I was naive because I just didn't think that people like that (without conscience) existed outside of the criminal system and TV/movies. I was so wrong.

Here's some more on this:

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

THAT resource is huge, but there's a lot of great information there.

just bumping...

My daughter is a sociopath... her mother is a sociopath... The only way to deal with them is to run.... There is no in between... There is no maybe....

They will take you.... They will do anything and everything to convince you that what they are doing is "right"...

Don't be a victim... They will steal your soul...

WB

I actually found the definistion of Sociopath on Wiki about a year ago and it made my blood run cold. Recently I also discovered the 'psychopath" definition and I think that better fits my XH. He displays most every characteistic except any difficulty with the law (probably because of what his family does as a living).

Literally, I could write paragraphs descibing his behaviors on everything. Mind did get physically abusive just before he left and the more research I do the more I realize just how lucky I was to get out as well as I did.

To the person whos xspouse had 3-5yr "eras" .... that description really hits home with the way my XH is.

When I really process it, it is VERY scarry for me. Mine acted like the nicest person, just some poor soul who had gotten the short end of the stick in life .... not so much in reality. He did have a less then desirable childhood but he is a psychopath with no desire to really address who he is.

Every time I see these lists it makes me realize how very lucky I am am. Mine is very intelligent, to a degree. He does make lots of "mistakes" and for someone who does not fall for his "victim" stories and even begins to hold him accountable for his own actions they quickly begin to see who he really is. I think there have been a lot of people who have "seen" who he is, I just didnt until I started discovering what was going on behind my back....

He lies terribly to his therapist. I am beginning to believe it is a game to him actually.

It is very chilling to realize this is the tye of person you are involved with but it does educate yourself to hopefully give you the education to not to make the same mistake again and to aviod these types of people in your life altogether.

You learn a lot about judging someone by their actions, not their words. And how to step back and really look at ones actions rather then their words ....

I spent 12 years with a psychopath. I am so glad to have gotten out.

My ex fits the definition, except that he's never been in trouble with the law. And that is just because he hasn't been caught. Yet.

I didn't want to see it when I thought we were "happily" married but when he was caught cheating, I had to face the truth and look beyond his smooth exterior.

He is a grand manipulator, a great actor and a pathological liar. People, including his own adult children and grandchildren really mean very little to him. They are merely pawns he uses to make him look "good" and he plays them like a violin, over and over. He even plays his ex-wife and she still falls for it. He's left a path of destruction and broken hearts in his midst for many years.

He played me, too, for five years. And then his mask came off. And I ran. He pulled the pity play, which was a total mind F. The pity play is the hallmark of the sociopath/psychopath and it is a hideous experience to live through, because when you have loved someone and they have devastated you and stripped you bare and then try to make you feel sorry for them, it tests you to the core of your being. Because you want to believe so badly that there is an explanation to the behavior and that they will go back to being the person you thought they were.

But they won't. They can't. This isn't something that can be fixed. They con the shrinks. I watched my ex do it! And the shrink fell for it - hook, line and sinker. She was his biggest fan - until his mask came off and then she ran screaming, too, and she wouldn't even discuss it.

I watched him do it a very good intentioned minister, too. After D day, my ex reached out to him for "help". The minister reached out to me, to help me in my darkest hour. He was a life-saver. And he was a stranger. The minister was really perplexed by my ex. He said he seemed like such a wonderful guy and that he had never seen someone who seemed so wonderful be capable of doing what my ex did to me and to our marriage.

The minister was only trying to help my ex. Which is why my ex sought him out. One evening my ex was over and trying to make me feel badly for him and the minister called him. To try to help him. I witnessed my ex being very rude and short with the minister and watched him roll his eyes at the call. He hung up and I knew he was done with the minister.

Then I knew for sure. He wasn't really sorry. He was trying to use the minister to get to me and when he saw I wasn't buying it, he simply had no further use for the minister.

There's more. Much, much more. My advice is to listen to your gut. If things don't add up, there's a good reason. These folks are very good at breaking down your barriers, one deception at a time. You cannot spot them out when they are wearing their mask. And they can keep their mask on for a long, long time. Sometimes for years.

You have to rely on your gut. If someone is rushing you to commit to a relationship and you are not yet ready for that, don't buy the "soul mate" routine. Step far back and take a closer look at why they are in such a big hurry.

Chances are they are running from something. It can be that they need you to help make them look good, pay their bills, for money, to put a roof over their head and a warm bed to sleep in, invest in their crazy schemes or all of the above.

Love and honor yourself enough to question stories or life histories that just don't seem to add up. If it isn't adding up to 100%, they are hiding something and you are being lied to.

They are never going to tell you the truth. Ever. You have to figure it out for yourself and sadly, it seems that usually happens after major damage has occured. And if you are someone, like me, whose life was turned upside down by one of these prediators, get out. Don't look back. Do not think longingly about how it used to be because how it used to be was never real. Never.

Two and half years after my oreal, I'm still trying to figure out how I can ever trust again. I trust my family. That's it. I'm surviving and I'm relieved it is over, but the damage is still there and most likely will be there for a long time, if not forever. I'll never be the same again. Probably a good thing, because this most likely will never happen to me again.

Not because there aren't that many of them around. There are. But because I know the tell tale signs and what to look for. I was such an easy mark. I was so trusting and I believed in him. I overlooked inconsistencies and gave him the benefit of the doubt. Big mistake.

Be smart with your heart and with your life savings. That is my advice.

This sounds like my h with the exception of the following:

juvenile delinquency

breaking parole or probation

varied criminal activity

The rest of the list fits both him and ow as does a lot of the examples.

That's exactly true for me too. But my H does have some education (college) so it still fits what the article says. He's also smart so has no trouble figuring out how to be subtle and fly under radar. He had a string of short term GFs in college, all of whom were obviously much more people savvy than me and dumped him promptly. I was obviously the idiot in love and stuck around always available to be milked for years (made more money, was ambitious, a gogetter type etc.), he was just sort of there for the ride. I don't know how many times he found himself at a dead end careerwise and needed to go for training/re-training (for which I paid and supported him during, including now). Now I remember that when we were dating he seemed to make those curious statements about how he wanted me to always stay healthy (quit smoking for example) and he also said many times that he expected me to carry my own weight... when I think about it now, given all his history, I'm all - he obviously wanted someone who would remain useful and god forbid not a liability to him in any way.

I still feel so horribly trapped now, with small children that need so much parenting how can i possibly embark on a major career move, and with no support whatsoever here in the US, even if I cut my losses and got rid of the real estate we jointly own now (at a loss) where the hell would I go?

OTOH, this feeling of being so alone, with the daily aggravation of my H cold, cruel comments is just too much... I honestly worry that the stress will make me contract some horrible disease and die soon, leaving my kids alone in this situation. How the hell do I go about getting myself out of this mess (with my kids of course).

[This message edited by skylers_mom at 11:29 AM, September 5th (Sunday)]

I just wanted to give ((((hugs))) to those who have been involved with psychopaths and remind you that there was nothing wrong with YOU. You were targeted. Period. Because of your good qualities.

Thanks TIKY. I needed to read this again today - just to remind myself................

And these people have patterns of behaviour sometimes over many years. If you want to find out what your future will look like with him/her, look at their past.

One of the things that stood out to me was he wasn't willing to take care of me after major surgery???? So many red flags yet I ignored them all.

Stay true to yourself and always, always follow your gut.

t/j skylersmom, you will find a way, just keep trying and looking ahead.

You were targeted. Period. Because of your good qualities.

I absolutely believe that, ThoughtIKnewYa. And thank you for starting this thread.

Skylarsmom - I'm so sorry. I remember the "trapped" feeling and I didn't have children with him. He did, however, have me strapped financially. I have an established career and make a good living but there was never enough money for that man. And he didn't like to work, which is the only explanation for his career and business failures.

You are ahead of the game in that you know what he is. You will figure a way out eventually.

big hugs

Yes, total "Love Fraud" & con!

He just has not really been caught -- yet!

Thanks for posting this.

Skylar's mom, I understand how you feel about the trapped feeling. I feel that way, also.

The comment your h made about you needing to pull your own weight...my h didn't say that, but Ive posted here tons of times about how he would leave me with the bulk of the financial (etc) of the household responsibilities. When his family lived here or came to visit, they were MY responsibility.

Now, he is trying to step up to the plate. In the recent days he's trying to shove money into my hand and it makes me nervous. I think he's just trying to cover his ass in case we go to court. I still feel whore and his or their freinds and giving him the 411 on how to handle possible divorce proceedings. Im not sure on this, but I feel it strongly.

The thing that Im wondering, though h has tendancies listed here, is it possible he is merely abusive without the sociopathic/psychopathic? I know abuse is a part of being a sociopath or psychopath, but can you have some of the sociopath/psychopath characteristics and merely be an abusive asshole?

Want to add something I just thought...I mentioned earlier that ow fit the descriptions, too.

Oct 2007, I met ow's bff's mother (a lady I had known since 2001) in front of a convinience store. A few things she told me about ow (and this lady has known ow since she was a little girl. This lady pretty much raised ow bc mom died of cancer, dad was an absentee-alcoholic-adulter-serial groom):

ow only cares about herself, sex and money.

ow is nice to your face only.

ow being a former druggie/alcoholic back on the booze.

She said h would tire of her after awhile. Neither one of us banked on h and ow being two peas in a pod.

And I learned ow is an extremely skilled liar. She could be an academy award winning actress. Im being serious; Im not lying or being sarcastic.

[This message edited by sullymeishadomi at 2:06 PM, September 5th (Sunday)]

Last night the WW says, "I am unable to feel love for you or anyone else. There's nothing there and never was."

My theory is that she emotionally abandoned the marriage long ago but due to her religious beliefs(cannot divorce without adultery on my part--she once suggested I get a girl friend) she refuses to add on to her repertoire of misdeeds. In short, this is a cop out. Either that or she is telling the truth and may fall into the category of someone with sociopath tendencies.

Other symptoms fit like a glove. Pathological lying, lack of guilt or shame, impulsive nature, promiscuous sexual nature/infidelity, does not believe that anything is wrong with her, secretive.

I felt and still do that my WS fits a number of items in this description. However, our MC doesn't think so.

Short answer, yes. My WH has mixed personality disorder--with strong antisocial traits.

My father is either a malignant narcissist or a sociopath, depending on whose opinion you take.

My nephew is a sociopath.

And I always chucked at the Freudian stuff....silly, silly me.