SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I didn't want to t/j a thread in General, so I decided to start a separate one here.

The thread was in response to a WS who stated (paraphrasing) that his infidelity was not that bad because infidelity was not a crime. My reply was as follows:

The language of law and the language of integrity are not always the same thing.

If you commit a crime but you aren't read your Miranda rights, you may "get off" on a technicality. The damage you inflicted was just as severe, but the penalty you paid did not match the crime.

In infidelity, the price paid will always be deep and permanent. You sacrifice who you are, and can never go back and undo the damage you inflicted not only on others but also on your own soul.

In crime, the price paid is your freedom. In infidelity, the price paid is your integrity. Freedom can be regained. Integrity cannot.

I was challenged on this point with a counter that if integrity cannot be regained than many WS's might give up hope. The author further went on to state that integrity could be regained over time with a lot of hard work.

Here's where my opinion is different. I see integrity as a continuous thread from our birth to our death. So long as we stay true to our internal moral compass, that thread remains intact. But once we diverge from the compass, the thread breaks.

With a lot of hard work and understanding, the thread can be tied back together. We can resume on the path the compass pointed to, and we can follow that path for the rest of our lives. But that will not make the place where the thread was knotted to repair it one seamless strand again.

I've stated for a long time that each day presents us with a new opportunity to do the right thing. I've said that we do not have to define ourselves based on our past, and can look forward to a future we define with our actions moving forward. And that we can have new, in some ways even stronger marriages post infidelity given the right choices and actions in our futures. I still believe all of that, and it still remains a strong driving force in my life.

But I don't kid myself to say that I am a person of integrity. I broke my thread, and no matter how skilled I became at knot tying to repair it, it is still a repaired thread and not a seamless one.

The price I will pay forever for my infidelity is the loss of my integrity. I can live the rest of my life perfectly (which won't happen as I'm a human being - I'm going to make mistakes), and my integrity will still not reach 100%.

Is this cause for despair on my part? Not in the least. I've been contemplating a phrase I read a few days ago a lot lately:

Am I using my talents and gifts to help others?

So long as that answer is yes, then I know I am on the path my internal moral compass points to. And that fact that at the end of my life I may find myself with 91.7% integrity doesn't take away my peace in living that life.

I'm happy to hear from others here on how you feel. This is, of course, just my view of the world through the life I am living.

Here's where my opinion is different. I see integrity as a continuous thread from our birth to our death. So long as we stay true to our internal moral compass, that thread remains intact. But once we diverge from the compass, the thread breaks.

no one is perfect. under that analogy no one would have integrity. it may not be cheating related but there could be something that makes that person "lose" integrity. i've got to think about this one a bit more.

Listeningclosely,

I love your posts and how you share your struggles and truimphs.

Yes, I absolutely consider myself a person of integrity. I will defend anyone, whether I like them or not if I feel they're being wronged without a second hesitation or thought of myself or the consequences.

I am a good mother to my children and a good loyal friend.

I have never lied and value honesty even if I received brutal consequences for telling the truth.

I lost my moral compass and had an affair. I had a relationship while I was married to my husband. He was aware of it, but that is NOT my view of marriage and it is NOT what I want to show my children.

My husband gave me the perfect "get out of jail free" card as he does not think of my affair as an affair. It was. It is. I used the exact same rationalization and justification to abandon my core values and basically who I was.

I work every day to heal and be a better person.

Our lives are made up of "repaired threads" and one thing you'll find with those. If they're done right, they never break in the same place again.

Integrity is a living breathing thing and it can be lost and found many times in our lives.

You are comfortable with your view of it and your explaination makes perfect sense. It works for you. I do find you to be a person of integrity, though.

I have had the honor to have made friends with some of the wayward spouses on this site and I can tell you that I consider them all to have integrity and as I shared on another thread I would trust them with my life.

I'm truly blessed. And this site is one of the reasons.

I see integrity as a continuous thread from our birth to our death. So long as we stay true to our internal moral compass, that thread remains intact. But once we diverge from the compass, the thread breaks.

What defines diverging from the compass? Do small things count? Breaking something and not telling? Picking up a $20 bill without looking for the owner? Or is the betrayal from infidelity the only thing big enough to count? Does inflicting verbal abuse count as maintaining integrity as long as one does not cheat?

It is too simplistic to assume anything is merely one singular thread - once broken to be forever broken, even if it is tied back together.

Here's where my opinion is different. I see integrity as a continuous thread from our birth to our death. So long as we stay true to our internal moral compass, that thread remains intact. But once we diverge from the compass, the thread breaks.

In order offer my thoughts in response to your stated opinion, I request some clarification.

First I would ask your definition of "internal moral compass".

Second, I would ask what/who you believe the vehicle is that provides you with your internal moral compass.

Specifically in relation to your comment above of 'integrity as a continuous thread from our *birth to our death*'....

You have piqued my interest and I am looking forward to reading others thoughts on this matter, as well.

Integrity is a living breathing thing and it can be lost and found many times in our lives.

I like this.

I also believe that it is difficult to grow and learn without sometimes getting confused by what integrity is.

LC-

FWH and I were talking last week (I triggered over something) and he stated that he wish he had died 5 years ago with the Leukemia; that back then he could've died knowing that he never broke his vow, that he never hurt me the way he did two years later.

I expect he was talking about his own integrity.

Edited to add: Speaking from personal experience, integrity CAN be regained - not quickly, not easily, not without personal pain (growth). The "thread" can be "knotted" and STRONGER than it was unbroken.

[This message edited by Devestatedx5 at 5:02 PM, September 7th (Tuesday)]

I looked up the definition of integrity because I'm a word maven and it's one of those words that had a fuzzy definition in my mind.

The etymology of the word, for anyone who is a geeky as I am, is from integer which is in turn defined as a whole positive or negative number.

Here are the definitions:

Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

The state of being unimpaired; soundness.

The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.

I've got none of those and never will. I consider myself a person with integrity because I seek those things: steadfastness, soundness, being whole.

There is no "before" and "after". The question is where am in the continuum of trying to draw my life and spirit into congruence with my values.

I want be closer to a coherent whole number. I'm tired of living in a million fractions. But whole numbers are perfect so they are boring and hard to play with (the dreaded dangling participle). Some fractions are OK as long as they aren't so complicated that I can't do the math.

I have to reply to this thread as it was me who said that some new WS may lose hope if they think their integrity can never be regained.

I can see LCs analogy quite clearly but I can also see uncertainone's.

We, as human beings, are complex and are made up of many "threads". I guess you could say that each of our values is a single thread. I prefer the "yarn" analogy instead (being a crocheter). There are many thicknesses of yarn, from thread size to almost rope size.

My point is, each strand of yarn is made up of many smaller strands of yarn, twisted to be stronger than the parts. It's entirely possible for one or more of these strands to be broken without significantly compromising the strength of the whole strand. Also such a compromised strand can still be used and "built" upon in the work in progress. Once the work is finished, it's almost impossible to find the compromised piece even if you know exactly where to look for it.

The only way a compromised strand would be detrimental is if the work was abandoned or no care was taken to reinforce the compromised strand.

My strand of yarn was compromised by my infidelity but I haven't abandoned the work and I've taken due care to reinforce the compromised strand so it will not break again or become completely severed.

During my affair, I felt like I had thrown away my integrity, completely, but I also recognized that it had been slowly eroding for the number of years I had harboured feelings for OM that I had neither acted on nor been honest about.

I tried to get it back by coming forward with honesty to my H and my family. I further tried to restore it by doing what was right or at least what seemed the least hurtful at that point.

I think that integrity can be defined as "making choices and living out the things you say you believe." I actually think that Tiger Woods gave a definition similar to that. I have an unremorseful WS, so he says he believes in vows and being trustworthy, yet does not live it out. I have a friends who is a FWS who says this is what I did and what I am capable of doing when everyone tells him how great he is now for ending his affair. I see him as having integrity. One of my core values in life is to live out what I say I believe. I would put most remorseful WS on this site in that definition too. I think you can lose it and gain it back.

To me, integrity means living in congruence with my values. That twisty feeling I get in my stomach usually means that I'm not doing that.

It means owing up when I screw up.

It means doing the hard right thing even when I know it is going to cost me in some way, shape, or form.

It means "walking the walk, not just talking the talk."

To me it doesn't mean being perfect. I'm not perfect. In fact, if I claimed to be so, I'd question my own integrity.

Living in integrity means owning my shit.

Kwills

To me it doesn't mean being perfect. I'm not perfect. In fact, if I claimed to be so, I'd question my own integrity.

Living in integrity means owning my shit

I think Kwills is spot on. The problems I have with LC's view of integrity is that it demands perfection & it is starkly pessimistic. For a person to have integrity, he or she must never have made a mistake. The bar is set so high that a person must inevitably fail, and there is no hope for redemption. Integrity isn't the same as virginity - once lost, never regained. It isn't finite. It can be lost & it can be regained. If there is no hope of becoming a better person, a person of integrity, why on earth would anyone bother to try to do so?

Hopeful's and Kwills' responses most closely match my personal definition of integrity. To me it means, whole-ness, matching myself, leaving no loose ends. It goes with knowledge and committment. I lost it. Now I have to find the loose threads and either tie them off or tie them to other threads. Weaving the tapestry of life, I guess.

~L.

let it be me - To answer your questions:

First I would ask your definition of "internal moral compass".

Keep in mind this is solely my opinion. I tend to be an emotionally and spiritually driven person. So there may be place in my view where facts and evidence would refute my views. Just looking to provide some context.

For me, the inner moral compass is the inner voice that when you think you're about to do something says "stop, this goes against who you are". It's not always a conscious thing when we ignore that voice and move forward, but it doesn't mean the voice isn't there. It's sometimes subtle, and sometimes it screams very loudly. But it is always there, reminding us when our actions follow our beliefs and when they go against them.

Second, I would ask what/who you believe the vehicle is that provides you with your internal moral compass.

Hopefully not crossing too many lines on the religious front here, but I believe that the compass is in there based on a higher power who envisioned me being here. I believe that the teachings of my faith are not necessarily something new to be learned, but instead that they are reminders of what our inner compass already knows.

It's from that foundation that my views are formed. And yes, I know not all will agree and that's ok with me.

no one is perfect. under that analogy no one would have integrity.

icbtih8 - I agree that no one is perfect. But I think there is a difference between making a mistake versus actively making choices that go against your moral compass. If you believe your family comes first and yet you forgot to pick up your child from soccer practice, I see that as an involuntary mistake and not an active choice. You can still maintain integrity. That's different than choosing to steal from a convenience store or from cheating on your spouse.

Do small things count? Breaking something and not telling? Picking up a $20 bill without looking for the owner? Or is the betrayal from infidelity the only thing big enough to count? Does inflicting verbal abuse count as maintaining integrity as long as one does not cheat?

UnexpectedSong - this one really made me think quite a bit. And I know this is going to sound a bit counter to what I've stated before. But I do think there are degrees. So for me, "small things" probably are not strong enough to fully cut the thread. With that said though, the gray area you define is because we each have different definitions of what constitutes a "small thing". For some, a kid taking a pack of gum from the store is a small offense. For others, it's as big as if they robbed a bank. And I think that's why your point about it not being simple is spot on.

Again, this is only my way of looking at things. But I will never consider myself a person of integrity based on the significance of my A. I have forgiven myself many times over, I've committed to living a life of integrity moving forward and I am focused on being the best person I can be for the balance of my time here. I feel I am a good person and one who can make my family and friends around me happy. And I feel that I am not the person I allowed myself to become during my A. All of that is what drives my hope for the future.

But just as my BW will never blindly trust me 100%, nor can she say she's lucky to have me as her husband, I just can't bring myself to feel I will be a person of integrity.

But just as my BW will never blindly trust me 100%,

I have to comment on the LC. No, your BW will never blindly trust you 100% but I think she can trust you 100%. That, I think is the trust that is really destroyed in infidelity - the blind trust.

My H does trust me, just not blindly. That's what I destroyed when I cheated.

As for the moral compass, well, everyone is different. For instance, most would agree that lying, stealing and cheating are wrong as it goes against their moral compass. However these things are second nature to a NPD. *Their* moral compass is aligned in such a way that they do not or cannot see these things as wrong.

I believe I *can* regain my integrity, through reinforcing the compromised strand so it doesn't break completely, putting my H through the same thing again.

I am a work in progress and, while I can probably find the place where the strand was compromised I can rest assured the the reinforcement will hold.

Clarissa, I was thinking about posting something about yarn and crochet as a way of showing how strong my thread is now... you beat me to it!

I understand both points... while the thread may have been broken, it is still possible to create something strong and beautiful from those fragments. It won't be the same, the flaw in the thread is still there, and it always will be, but what you make of it is the most important thing. You could wad it up and throw it in the corner or you could do everything in your power to learn how to make something that matters.

[This message edited by Fallen at 6:18 PM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

Fallen, this analogy came to me because I AM into crochet (and I've got the blankets to prove it ) and I have done what I said in my analogy: I have used yarn that wasn't "whole" in some of my works. With proper care these "imperfect" blankets will last just as long as the others.

Even though I made all these blankets, I cannot for the life of me tell you in which ones I used the slightly broken strands.

Integrity is the unity (integration) of 'who you are' with 'what you do' and 'how you act.'

The opposite of integrity is compartmentalization - having different ways of acting depending upon the circumstances, the setting or the people you are with.

A person who acts one way in public and another way in private is a good example of someone without integrity.

If you *are* who you SAY you are, and BELIEVE you are, then you are a person of integrity.

I think everyone has the capacity for empathy, and compassion. However, I do not think we are born with a moral compass in place, but rather that it is something developed, honed, and refined over the years. I try to think of myself as someone not fundamentally immoral, but rather someone who has never trained that muscle properly. I try not to think of myself as a lost soul who can never redeem himself, but someone who has to start at the very beginning again.

Integrity, to me, is being consistent and honest, in your beliefs, in your values, in your attitudes, and most of all in your choices. I made a choice to cheat, to lie, to hurt the person I love. I can't see that as temporary madness - to me it means my entire value system needs to be sifted through from top to bottom, and rebuilt from scratch.

Then, ultimately, with a firm new set of values, and beliefs in place, I can adhere to those new principles consistently, without anger, resentment or fear.