SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Feb 8 ~ I am so sorry. I can not imagine how difficult this is for you.

Do what you need to do and when you need to do it.

Remember no one else wakes up in your life...just you.

That being said - Don't keep putting something off just because you will never do it. If you don't do it when planned....well its nice to procrastinate on something that is icky to do.

You are hoping for a miracle that will make her see the light. That miracle is her seeing your resolve and strength. Nothing else will work here.

That's the bottom line. Women like hard ass bad boys. If you don't show that side occasionally, woman will start to devalue you and sexual attraction begins to drop. Like if a guy hits on your woman in a serious way and you know it, but don't do anything. She'll subconsciously devalue you.

That's not to say it's your fault you've been devalued, because our present society frowns on a manly reaction to that provocation, but PC attitudes still can't stand up to hard wire biology.

Your wife claims she was never attracted you. Bullshit. That's her rationalizing, consciously or otherwise, her violating what were, presumably, her previous moral beliefs. The more guys she fucks, the worse man you must be to drive her to such depraved sexual desperation.

If you want to try to get her back, you've got to go Roman. Blow up her trip (and the trip for the three dicks) by exposing to the spouses. Your wife knows you don't have the huevos for that kind of scene, so why not disabuse her? Your value will rise. Start doing some going out of your own, dressed to impress. Make her think you're on the verge of getting action. She thinks no woman would let you near, since you are so repulsive to her. the thing is, you're repulsive because her rationalization has made you repulsive. Other women won't react to you the way she thinks they will. Women take their cues on guys from each other. Attention from a woman revalidates you. It's amazing how it works.

Start kicking ass and pulling women and watch her attitude change. If not, you tried and you can use your new found knowledge of women on some 30 year old. Who dares, wins. He who hesitates is lunch.

Thanks for all the good advice...I am at my mom's with all three kids (dropped off WW on her bike, she'll be a couple of hours)...still, not enough time to read everything much less respond.

I will say that WW is not functioning well today, actually mentioned depression, keeps hovering, and I think she's scared that i am close to separating.

Not enough time to say everything...

So let's examine the state of things. She now admits to 2 As. She has zero attaction for you. She wants you to live like a monk and tend the kids while she goes out and fucks other men. (And your MC said...?)

"Uh, You two both seem to want very different things.."

and to her credit...

"*******, do you think that's fair to *****?

You obviously are on the right track here. However, really, why wait until some special moment to spring it all on her. What if she doesn't go on her trip? What then? Will you live like this until you crack or she goes on another trip?

Good point. I kind of enjoyed the idea of her twisting in the wind, unable to get home, while at least one of the guys was hearing it from his wife on a daily basis about what a bitch she was to do that to her sister...

Do the following:

Take the $5K and pay down bills, or give half to her and half to your lawyer. No judge in the world will fault you for that.

Another option on the money. Use the $5K to move out and find an apartment. It is your money as well as hers.

The money is MINE too, yes, but it is in her account.

The minute you file, the court will issue a restraining order that will prevent her from spending money on cosmtgic surgery and week long trips, so the sooner you file the better. So file ASAP. Let her know you know about the $.

My plan is to file ASAP after meeting with the lawyer on Wednesday.

Tell the people in your group that you cannot continue with them given that your wife is sleeping with 2 of the guys. They can either form a new group with you, or stay with her, but not both.

I would like to do this when she is in NC (for the entertainment value)

If you do move out (and I think you should), go dark on her. Email only re the kids.

No way am I leaving the house or the kids. I don't agree with this advice, sorry.

No more MC under these conditions. There is no M to C at this point. However, IC for you is critical.

No more MC booked.

Go back and find the collective works of bigger, wifehad5 and catwoman. Absorb what they say.

I would buy bigger's book if he wrote one.

Most important, know this: there are hundreds of single, age appropriate women in your area that go to bed every night praying to meet a guy of 45 without an ounce of fat with a good job, that is stable grounded and loves his kids, who love him back. And who lets the MIL live with them. Do not let you WW's insanity (and it is that) lead you to beleive that you are less of a man, or deserved this, or other wise other than normal.

Part of me wants to get out there and see...but for the sake of my family, and my own vows, I will resist the urge to act too fast...

You are hoping for a miracle that will make her see the light. That miracle is her seeing your resolve and strength. Nothing else will work here.

Yes, but not expecting it. My resolve and strength are building every day, in no small part ot the advice and support I get here.

That's the bottom line. Women like hard ass bad boys. If you don't show that side occasionally, woman will start to devalue you and sexual attraction begins to drop. Like if a guy hits on your woman in a serious way and you know it, but don't do anything. She'll subconsciously devalue you.

Good point, I believe that happened last year, but I saw the guy as no threat, knew she had no interest, and so I let her handle it.

That's not to say it's your fault you've been devalued, because our present society frowns on a manly reaction to that provocation, but PC attitudes still can't stand up to hard wire biology.

OM offered to take a couple punches, but I was smart enough to tell him that fights have 2 losers (last thing I need is an assault charge)

Your wife claims she was never attracted you. Bullshit. That's her rationalizing, consciously or otherwise, her violating what were, presumably, her previous moral beliefs. The more guys she fucks, the worse man you must be to drive her to such depraved sexual desperation.

I know...rationalization, blameshifting...problem is that just like Lance Armstrong believes he never did drugs, she believes her rewritten marital history now.

If you want to try to get her back, you've got to go Roman. Blow up her trip (and the trip for the three dicks) by exposing to the spouses. Your wife knows you don't have the huevos for that kind of scene, so why not disabuse her? Your value will rise.

Start doing some going out of your own, dressed to impress. Make her think you're on the verge of getting action. She thinks no woman would let you near, since you are so repulsive to her. the thing is, you're repulsive because her rationalization has made you repulsive. Other women won't react to you the way she thinks they will. Women take their cues on guys from each other. Attention from a woman revalidates you. It's amazing how it works.

Already starting to do this...kind of fun after 13 years off.

Bigger,

If you were local, I'd just pay you $150/hr for IC....

Feb

I told you way back that your WW would make concessions. She would try to negotiate a solution.

So she has told you that she’s willing to remain married IF you accept she isn’t sexually attracted to you. That’s just her first negotiating step to her solution.

I know. Although part of me feels like we're at a point of irreconciliable differences, I also realize that she desperately doesn't want to do to her kids what her parents did to her (D), nor does she want to lose me emotionally, financially and as a co-parent...

Once you accept that she’s hoping you accept that since she isn’t attracted you will lessen demands (and eventually relinquish them).

I made it very clear in MC that I saw best-friends living together as even worse than "Open", and that I would not accept anything like that.

Once you accept that she’s going to negotiate that what you don’t know won’t hurt you. Then she will go do OM.

Regarding OM. So he has dumped her… Surprise surprise! This is EXACTLY why we preach exposure. Once the heat is on OM will in 9 out of 10 cases head for the hills.

Feb – try to put this in a negotiation environment you can relate to. Say you are being offered an overpriced house. OK – you agree to sit down at the table and listen to the offer (MC session). The seller might make a case and SOME of the things might actually make sense. But if the seller keeps demanding a price that is a) way too high compared to market (open marriage is NOT the norm) and b) way over what you can pay (the emotional toll of sharing your wife).

At what point would you stand up from the table?

Where would you be willing to make concessions and at what point can a deal be made?

Another good analogy.

I would think the concession you would (and should) be willing to make are a) you will work at forgiving the affair, b) you will work your butt of improving the marriage.

Exactly what I told the MC

For now her concessions should be a) no more infidelities and b) she works her butt of improving the marriage.

She's half-heartedly promising the first, but doesn't see the need for the second?!? I have suggested that if we can get past the affair, that what our marriage needs is sex therapy, becasue according to her its the ONLY thing missing..she refuses, point blank..I asked in MC, why...why if there is only one thing wrong with a great relationship, why would you not want to address it?

Right now what she is offering is the equivalent of new shades and garden furniture IF you buy the house you don’t want and can’t afford.

If you stood up from such negotiations then why would you go back to the table? If the seller asked you back to haggle over the points you already refused then would you go back? Why? Why expect a different result? Personally I would refuse UNLESS I was made a better offer.

Until she reaches your price-range there is no profit or goal whatsoever in opening up negotiations.

So I suggest you cancel any further MC. Tell your wife that there really isn’t any need for MC while she isn’t committed to improving the marriage. The deal she offered is unacceptable and if that’s her TRUE perception of her reality then the marriage IS over.

No further MC scheduled...

Repeat to her that losing her is not the way you hoped things ended but it beats sharing her. Offer her a way back but remind her that the further you get along out of infidelity the bigger the gap between you.

I am sending her this message in many ways.

Then START all the actions that take place in divorce – INCLUDING letting people know.

I know her Facebook password, so if I wanted to, I could confirm a change of relationship status on there... "BS is separated". One of many things that have crossed my mind....

[This message edited by Feb 8, 2011 at 1:10 PM, March 17th (Thursday)]

A complete re-write of the marital history and no remorse whatsoever. Then there's the blameshifting where it doesn't matter what she does, but if you divorce her, YOU are at fault for breaking the family?

Such entitlement. Selfishness does not begin to cover it. It looks like that she's using the children as leverage to keep you in the marriage. She's banking on your strong love for your kids will allow her to be able to have her cake and eat it too. What kind of a mother is that?

She basically wants the two of you to be roommates, living in the same house, raising the kids, but leading separate sexual lives? All the while different men come and go and get to enjoy your wife's vagina and not have any responsibility?

Talk about ZERO respect for her husband. I'm quite sure you do not want to settle for being a roommate. That's not what marriage is about.

Thanks for putting in writing exactly how I am feeling. Don't worry, people...I am no longer in my post-affair fog.

edited to add: Back to kids and family for awhile...may be back later, but after WW arrives from bike ride (dropped her off 50km away - no - that's a favour, not punishment), I won't likely be on here unless its at 3 am again.

[This message edited by Feb 8, 2011 at 1:21 PM, March 17th (Thursday)]

I know some are saying not to wait to expose, but as long as you have a back up plan in case she doesn't go, I think it is alright to wait. It gives you time to get all the balls rolling and get all documentation you need.

One thing, I know most people think of financial documents when starting this, but also make sure you have your birth certificate and ss card as well as official ones of your children in a safe place

If the North Carolina (I can't abreviate that as NC) trip is going to happen, you should at least check into what legal advantages you can get from this.

I had forgotten that you were in Canada when I went to check on the law there, but I found this bit amusing and perhaps relevant.

Canada's Criminal Code does not identify adultery as an offence per se except within the context of endangering the morals of a child:

"Every one who, in the home of a child, participates in adultery ... or any other form of vice, and thereby endangers the morals of the child or renders the home an unfit place for the child to be in, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years."

aesir,

I had it wrong anyway..it's SC...but since OM is not on the trip, with any luck it'll be the SCNC trip.

Interesting evening here at my mom's last night. My mom and sister know, but didn't let on to WW.

Blow up her trip (and the trip for the three dicks) by exposing to the spouses.

There's going to be some collateral damage...

Two of the three guys on the trip are the two I like the most from the group. The three of us did a Solo 8 hour race together last summer and frequently correspond on FAcebook.

Feb:

'Mind and Matter'

The ones that 'mind' don't matter.

The ones that 'matter' don't mind.

Two of the three guys on the trip are the two I like the most from the group. The three of us did a Solo 8 hour race together last summer and frequently correspond on FAcebook.

And if they were your friend before....they will remain your friend. They are so low on the priority list of people this will affect...

Time is marching along. You have a plan, now follow through.

After reading a few of your most recent posts, it sounds like you are beyond some things and attempting to move forward with some aspects of your life, but I figured I'd post something about a comment you made and my own experience just in case it helps someone else maneuver in their own situation.

It really is amazing how similar our experiences on this forum can be...

If I didn't have to work, I'd offer to take her spot on the trip. I'd suffer like hell trying to ride in those mountains, given the lack of training motivation I've had recently (for some reason)...but maybe it would get me back into cycling.

Oh well, not going to happen..but maybe I will start riding again, and just tell WW that I'm taking a few days for myself at the beginning of the summer to go to Vermont and ride the six gap challenge, Mount Ascutney and some others that I had researched FOR US.

I was a regionally competitive runner...I have placed as high as 4th, overall in a marathon and 6th in a half marathon. My training for the last several years consisted of running 100+ mile weeks. This, of course, became a point of contention within my marriage when things were being 'addressed'.

We have 3 kids and many remarks were made about my time spent training and how it detracted from me spending time with the family and our children.

However, what I was doing was getting up at 4:45-5:00 a.m. and running to work (12 miles), then running again at my noon lunch hour. I would also get up early on weekend days and get the longer distance in before anyone got up and have a short 30-40 minute run near the evening, so my training really didn't affect anything.

When I pointed that out, the argument tossed back was that if I didn't do that, I could have just gone to work at that early hour, not taken lunch and come home early...somehow disregarding the fact that I don't actually have the ability to just show up at work at 5:30 and leave at 2:30 p.m.; my hours are set at 8-5.

In any case, I stopped training in order to negate the argument, assuming that I could make a concession to 'work' my supposed parts.

Did it help? No.

If I took the kids fishing, I was criticized for having them wear the wrong shoes and 'ruining' them...never mind the fact that I just hosed them off and threw them in the washer...good as new...they're flippin' canvas Vans and cheap nylon deals, nothing special.

If I attended to more household chores (and I already did the majority share anyway while she mostly dented the couch and moped), I did the 'wrong' one. If I cleaned bathrooms and laundered, I should have vacuumed and picked up. If I did the dishes, I should have mowed the lawn...etc., etc.

What I'm trying to get at is that in their skewed perception and blame-shifting...EVERYTHING you do is WRONG and EVERYTHING that has transpired is due to your faults. It's all BS and attempting to 'fix' any of your shortcomings at this point is futile and a waste of time/effort.

I'm not saying that you should not address any shortfalls within your partnership at some point, but that should only come when they can begin to appreciate your efforts; that will ONLY come when they reach a level of remorse and commitment on their end. Until then, I think it wise to address nothing on your end.

And the most effective way I've seen (from my experience, and many instances on this forum) to get to that point, is to MOVE ON and let them see you are not going to stick around in the current state of things. Don't argue, don't negotiate, don't engage, just give them the option, if you are willing, the conditions, and start walking in the direction you've set; they either follow, or they don't.

I regret giving up my training for that length of time as it accomplished nothing; I was in the best shape of my life and I've not recaptured that...it may come back, but I'm sure Feb knows that it takes considerable time...especially at my age of 41.

I hope things come together for you. If you focus on what you can do for your kids, and yourself, no matter the outcome of the marriage, you will be OK and will also have the peace of knowing you offered R.

Also, something to keep in mind about that exposure that you seem hesitant.

You can't actually wreck anything. It's already been wrecked by WW to its worst possible point, so informing people isn't going to make anything worse.

A corollary to that is that you can't salvage anything either...only WW can do that.

[This message edited by SomewhatWorried at 8:29 AM, March 18th (Friday)]

My training for the last several years consisted of running 100+ mile weeks. This, of course, became a point of contention within my marriage when things were being 'addressed'.

We have 3 kids and many remarks were made about my time spent training and how it detracted from me spending time with the family and our children.

However, what I was doing was getting up at 4:45-5:00 a.m. and running to work (12 miles), then running again at my noon lunch hour. I would also get up early on weekend days and get the longer distance in before anyone got up and have a short 30-40 minute run near the evening, so my training really didn't affect anything.

Sounds familiar...I was very proud of the fact that any success I had came at what I felt was a very modest cost in terms of family time due to pre-sunrise rides, bike commuting, etc. The difference was that my wife is also a very fast rider/racer, but not as inclined to ride alone in the same non-peak hours that I did...so she would be out riding in prime-time while I watched the kids.

100 mile weeks..wow! A couple of off-seasons, the transition running as cross-training took on a life of its own, and I started training for a marathon. Missed my BQ time by 5 minutes in my first attempt in 2005, and then 2 years later, my IT band couldn't handle the 70 mile weeks, so I returned to cycling without running another marathon (although I did manage to break 1:30 for the HM)

Somewhat worried....being that SI is acronym-central, I threw in a few acronyms just for you

[This message edited by Feb 8, 2011 at 12:18 PM, March 20th (Sunday)]

The money is MINE too, yes, but it is in her account.

don't know your laws but where I live all the bank accounts (no matter which spouse opened them or has their name attached to them) are jointly held marital assets (unless it is clearly money she brought to the marriage). 50% of that account balance is yours.

I know the money is mine, I just can't get at it. I just don't want her account to dwindle to zero going into possible S/D just becasue she had a tummy tuck.

PROGRESS? She met us at our son's hockey game yesterday afternoon...sat beside me in stands, wanted to hold hands, put her leg up on my lap...took the whole family out to dinner afterwards...discussed how she told Tom (BIL of OBS and one of the guys on SC trip) that she might not go on the trip..actually told me that she felt she needed my blessing to go...I told her it was still her decision, I could handle things at home...when we got home, she started looking up Skype and U.S. text plans on the computer so that we could stay in tuoch if she did go...mentioned getting me a QWERYTY phone too..AND, via Keylogger..nothing inappropriate on computer in close to a week..she mostly just checks her own email, reads some news and logs on to my alternate e-mail to read my journal (see other thread)...woke me up at midnight to cuddle in bed (just cuddle)...HOWEVER, I have NOT forgotten underlying issues, and will remain on current course..one day means close to nothing.

Feb

You know I am in your corner. I am glad to hear you are staying the course. You need to. Strength on your part is the only defense you have.

If I were to play devil's advocate, I would suspect she has taken things way underground. Maybe she has a secret phone or has devised another method of communication with her other men?

She certainly sounds like she has a pretty good indication of what you are ready to do and is doing just enough to head it off.

But the fact remains she wants to screw other men (not you) and have you clean up her messes. And your reward is getting to eat a crap sandwich on a regular basis. What a deal, eh?

She might defog. But not unless you are ready to kick some ass. And I think you are. YOU need to think you are.

Strength to you brother!

...and is doing just enough to head it off.

I tend to agree. Be wary.

PROGRESS? She met us at our son's hockey game yesterday afternoon...sat beside me in stands, wanted to hold hands, put her leg up on my lap...took the whole family out to dinner afterwards...discussed how she told Tom (BIL of OBS and one of the guys on SC trip) that she might not go on the trip..actually told me that she felt she needed my blessing to go......woke me up at midnight to cuddle in bed (just cuddle)...

Caveats:

1)I'm not a mental health professional. 2)I have not read everything you have posted.

Having said that - your wife seems like she may be bi-polar. One of my best friends is bi-polar and their behavior has a lot of similarities (when he stops taking his meds). Swings from friend to adversary. From way happy to way sad. All without any external stimuli to attribute the mood swings to. If you do try to R with her you need to make it a condition that she get checked out by a mental health pro. You won't be happy living with her unless she gets that fixed with meds (if she is bi-polar).

[This message edited by wewillmakeit at 3:07 PM, March 21st (Monday)]