SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Glad you're at work.

Checking her story via cell records is NOT a game. See my above post.

You care too much about her depression and how many days of bike riding she has missed.

Consider Feb -- as others have pointed out -- your depression meant jack shit to her. She took a holiday. With three men.

If hockey, children, and marriage were such terrible trials that threw her into a funk (I just typed "fuck" and corrected myself) -- why wasn't she incapacitated THEN?

Why didn't she need you desperately BEFORE?

Do get outside yourself. And PLEASE check the cell phone records and demand transparency. She's NOT too depressed to tell you her PW.

Her fragile state is just a damn bit too convenient if you ask me.

Feb, first let me say You are doing so well. You have a strength that few of us had at this stage. You also have a clarity by which you can see that we, and I mean that in the greatest sense of SI, are here for you, to give multiple viewpoints, and allow you to apply what work in your situation. You have moved at your pace and internalized these things well. So I want to say Bravo. I also want to reiterate this point by Redrock,

Redrock, I sometimes feel like a class A fraud giving hardline advice because I was doormat central. I didn't have SI to help me negotiate and I fucked up so many times in so many ways is it humiliating.

But in some ways us doormater's see things very clearly.

There is sooo much truth here. Your WW is doing exactly what my WW did. She fell apart completely and fell back on her clinical depression as a justification excuse and reason to not engage and have me carry the water of early R. I think there is some merit to the depression, hell wouldn’t we all get depressed when we find out or look in the mirror and see the monster staring back at us? But it took me a while to figure out my WW was not depressed for that reason, rather she wasn’t showing remorse or discussing the terrible things she did. That was not why she was depressed. She was hiding behind it and using her illness as a way to run from the issues at hand. In fact, all our broken spouses are masters at running from themselves. She is not remorseful yet. Yes you are seeing her brokenness; however it’s not bringing about her running toward her issues or your marriage. Keep a keen eye on the use of illness as a way to run and hide, my WW did this. She will tell you now she was depressed as hell, but that was not why she had her affair, but rather a symptom of the issue. This is 9 months later…. Oh and by the way, like Redrock I didn’t see it then.

Again I want to give Bigger a hug, he stole my thoughts,

Not “maybe”, not “I want you to stay”. Just a clear YES I HEAR YOUR DEMANDS AND I ACCEPT THEM. You don’t read silence as acceptance, you don’t accept ANYTHING vague. In fact – it would be a great idea to put the demands in writing and have a signed agreement. Won’t necessarily hold any better BUT it doesn’t leave much leeway for misunderstanding.

This is something I worked on with my IC, our marriage is dead, lets write up a marital contract and sign it. Most of the things were things you stated as demands for marriage. Make sure she knows exactly what is expected and agrees to it. My WW and I would visit it daily before bed, then read a prayer. This kept it front and center early on.

I also want to answer this Feb,

This is very difficult. On some levels, I am being advised to "play a game" or manipulate a depressed (possibly clinically) mommy (2 of our 3 still call her that). Despite her anxious state, she is still pretty smart, and I have to be careful that she doesn't see through me.

NO one thinks this is a game! This is as serious a life event as it gets. This is not game planning? Everything anyone has asked or discussed is centered on YOU. Are you playing games with yourself? YOUR boundaries, Your expectations of marriage, YOUR consequences. We have not asked you to play a game rather clearly and unequivocally take care of yourself and kids. That is not game playing. Don’t let her and her state influence you taking care of YOU! Its hard proven by my sorry ass inability to do so early on. Look at redrocks quote above. We all sucked at it. But this is not a manipulative game! You’re not manipulating your wife. She is free to choose her path; the difference is YOU…..

Feb,

Quick question for anyone who wants to reply...I mentioned earlier that posting on other's threads helped me be objective about my own situation and perhaps learn/internalize a little. Do you find the same thing when you post on this thread?

YES!, I think in many ways I replay much of my dear WW in this scenario. Many similarities in the two of them, not identical but most of our stories have an eerie similarity. . If they continue to match each other your friend above that said there is more to the story is correct. I got daily TT for months, new details, new PA, new emotional connections, Strap on a hard hat this ride has just begun. But I can tell you, there is light. MY WW has been the model remorseful WW the past few months, she gets it now. It has been with tireless unnerving work on her part, IC,MC book reading , truly seeing her demons, and attempting to be a WW that I can be proud of, Wow, did I Just say that, I am proud of my WW, WHID?? I am proud. I just hope we continue this path. Now I must stop typing through tears.

Peace to Feb.

LHAP?

[This message edited by lordhasaplan? at 8:15 AM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

You care too much about her depression and how many days of bike riding she has missed.

No I don't. I see this as a positive thing...if she was faking, she would still manage to get out and ride...the first races are in less than a month (obviously I'm not going to bother myself).

Your wife MUST experience this pain so she realizes the extent of hurt her actions have caused and to act as a catalyst for change.

I want to reinforce with the others here that she needs to hit rock bottom.

It is hard to watch your spouse hit bottom. And each time you think they have hit that bottom, I can almost guarantee they can go a little further down. If you want a marriage, you have to let her fall.

OK. This is going to be hard to do, but OK. I get it.

squiffle - I am not sure our pay as you go plan allows access to those records...she did admit (yesterday) to texting him or talking to him almost daily after D-Day. I told her that a new cell phone was a dealbreaker. (haven't seen one yet)

I think its time I go back to 180 and focus on the kids..dig in my heels as Hrtbuthopefuls says.

Redrock and copinggirl - I don't have time to repsond now, and I want to read your posts again, but thank you - lots to think about.

This is very difficult. On some levels, I am being advised to "play a game" or manipulate a depressed (possibly clinically) mommy (2 of our 3 still call her that). Despite her anxious state, she is still pretty smart, and I have to be careful that she doesn't see through me.

I had to address this too. Like others have said -- this is not game playing or manipulation.

Think of it like this -- if you were sick and went to the Dr. in addition to prescribing meds, he would also likely give you some other things to do -- things to eat or not eat -- getting more rest, telling you to stay out of work etc. He is giving you advice on what you should to for the maximum potential for quick and easy recovery. Some things may feel natural (and be things you would do already) and some things may be things you usually wouldn't do.

This is the same. This is not game playing -- this is modifying your behavior to give true recovery the maximum chance. This isn't manipulation. Don't think of it like that -- this is medicine for your marriage. If it can be saved, this is the prescription for the quickest and easiest way to save it.

(and I use the words "quickly" "easly" very loosly, since it is neither, no matter what road you take)

[This message edited by brokeninfl at 8:28 AM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

Feb,

You asked:

Quick question for anyone who wants to reply...I mentioned earlier that posting on other's threads helped me be objective about my own situation and perhaps learn/internalize a little. Do you find the same thing when you post on this thread?

Yes. It has.

Participating in other threads has, too. It helps me realize that my WH isn't special. His OW isn't special. The fact that your BW and my WH's OW's post dday behavior are so similar is haunting me.

But it allows me to see how, after all these months here, the oldies are right. There's a WS script.

I believe that had I DONE the things post DDay that you're being told to, I wouldn't be HERE 12 months later. Reeling from 5 additional DDays.

I think that is what a lot of us, who are so desperately responding to your thread are doing. "DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID, MAN!"

FWIW, not riding in 5 days is significant. In my deepest post DDay PTSD issues, I've gone a whole week without running. Something highly unusal for me. She IS depressed. No one denies that. But is she depressed because her "reality escape" and thrill of the chase affair ended? Or is it because she's afraid of losing her family?

It is so hard to be in our shoes. I didn't find out about SI until November, and was already committing every single "Exactly what a BS should NOT do" act out there to try to save my marriage.

There really is a WS pattern. Someone above mentioned it, and it really does exist. And I'm 100% certain if I would have done exactly what is always suggested, it wouldn't have taken me half as long, or not nearly the amount of heartache I've gone through to get to where we are right now.

This is all just so hard, and I wish you nothing but the best. And for you to not make the same mistakes I did, because they nearly cost me my sanity.

I'm a member of the "former" doormat club. After my first dday? When he showed me a bit of attention? I ate it up. I tried to get him to go to counseling willingly and then insisted on it. I tried to work on ways that we could manage to have our old families/friends back. To go back to 'normal.' I was leading the way with all sorts of suggestions for him to let people know that he was truly sorry for his actions.

The truth of that time? When he would make a gesture and while I was appreciative? I wouldn't rugsweep. He then got angry, defensive and nasty. He was resentful about me forcing him to go to anger counseling. He would get angry if I tried to ask him a question about the A. I was giving him a beatdown, no matter how gently I asked the question. And a fight would ensue. During all this? He was still in contact with MOW- they were commiserating with each other on how their spouses were angry about their A. MOW apparently was VERY upset that her husband wouldn't forgive her. She didn't ask for forgiveness, she demanded it, and then got upset when it was refused. After 3 months of this secret contact about how 'hard' their lives were? The "I Love Yous" started up again... Oh, and we didn't know it, but MOW had already started an affair with yet ANOTHER married man.

So. I discovered the broken NC one Thursday/Friday and I was DONE. D.O. N. E!! It was bad enough to have him see me destroyed on Dday #1, but to still contact her when he knew how MUCH it would hurt me? That was unforgiveable in my book and hurt far worse. I had papers drawn up.

At this same time after I told him I was done? He met up with MOW for dinner on Saturday. And got a good hard dose of reality- he saw her for the slut that she was and he was embarrassed to be in public with her. It was at that moment, that he started fighting for me. He opened his computer. He came home with flowers for me that Monday, but unfortuantly, I had discovered yet another TT moments before he walked in the door- secret yahoo accounts in the names Lois Lane and Clark Kent. So, it was a few days before I could even look at him without wanting to poke his eyes out.

But he continued. And persisted. Even if I didn't want to give him the time of day. Our anniversary was the following week and he took me to dinner and pulled out all the stops. I got a note from MOW (who believed when she sent it that we were getting divorced) about how she was sorry, but it was all about luuuvvvv 3 days before our wedding anniversary. He looked like he would throw up when he saw the note. (Although it wouldn't be for weeks before he saw it for what it REALLY was, not an apology, but a parting shot and designed to make me hurt even more on our 'no-longer-anniversary') The fog doesn't totally disappear overnight!

HE fought for ME. Not me suggesting ways he could fight for me. It was all HIM! He suggested MC. He didn't call me names. He didn't defend her and say she was 'nice.' When she contacted him two months later? He immediately called me. He started opening up and would be able to have a conversation about the A without seeing it as an attempt to punish him.

My point in writing all this? I was a doormat in the beginning. I even let him meet up with her for him to break it off!!! (ironically, I found SI while he was with her at this meeting). I asked, but didn't push for an open computer. He balked at deleting her on FB. Yes, he bought me flowers and took me out to dinner. He was doing 'everything' to make it up to me in his words. But was he really? NO. He was still in contact with her and my gut knew it. Yes, he hurt, but he was thinking only about his pain. I would plead with him to help me with my pain and he would answer how badly HE hurt. And I just didn't want to face that we weren't in true R. I made excuses for him to myself, if I'm being honest. "Hey, he might be doing this, but look at what ELSE he's doing!" So, I guess I did rugsweep to an extent.

I say all this, and I think the others do as well, because we don't want you to suffer through False R as we did. The ONLY good thing about this is that we can look back and see what was true remorse and what wasn't. And from what we see from your wife? It doesn't appear to be TRUE remorse... yet.

When you SEE true remorse, you'll know it. Yes, you may be cautious and you'll have to see weeks and months of it before you'll begin to believe it, but you WILL know it when you see it. She will initate ways to make YOU feel better. She will look for ways to apologize. It will not be ALL about her, but about YOU and your KIDS.

Yes, there are moments now where the topic is about how much my husband is hurting. And I welcome that because he is sharing his hurt with me and leaning on me. Just as when I trigger, I can lean on him. We are there for each other, as it should be!

Feb- I know she's had her fantasy world cracked open and I expect she'll be a wreck for a little while. But if you ask for passwords and she resists? That is NOT true R. That is still covering her ass. I learned the hard way. I do think there's hope for your wife, but don't fool yourself too quickly that she's all in. {{{HUGS}}}

[This message edited by betrayedandnumb at 2:00 PM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

Lots of good advice being thrown your way, bro....some from the folks that helped me - over 2 years ago....aser, HeavyE, bigger, etc.

Feb.....trust but verify, dont put your head into the sand - pay attention to potential red flags, her actions speak louder than her words, etc....moniter emails, cell phone records, her actions, time spent away from you, and so on........pay attention to her actions..!!!!

Demand IC for your wife...she has GOT to work on the "whys" she cheated on you in the first place.....this is important..!!

Take care of yourself (eat, exercise, rest,)...even reread the 180, and keep it up....post often...this website saved my ass - thought i was the one that was crazy...maybe was the first few months - i did alot of wrong things before i discovered SI...thank GOD i did....

Patience, bro....this shit takes time.....the wall of trust gets rebuilt one brick at a time - but you need to have a solid foundation before any bricks are set...

R is possible....She has alot of work to do....i do think your WWs fog "may" be lifting....its a slow process. As "guys" we tend to be impatient....we want things "fixed" NOW!!!

My FWW stumbled along in the "fog lifting" process for about 2 or 3 months - before i slowed down on the PI activities - verify everything!!! In a few months you will wonder when to add the "F" to the "WW" tag......DONT RUSH IT!!!

You are doin pretty good, bro......(sorry bout all the 2X4s, bro....damn, you needed 'em sometimes....sorry).

This is not over for you..you and your WW have a ways to go....lookin' back on mine - this affair crap is the hardest thing i have ever endured in my whole life...im 56 - and have been through alota shit....this was the worst (and after my FWWs fog lifted), we went on to a pretty good R - at the 1 year antiversary - i knew we would make it.. - and My FWW "did all the right things" to "win me back"...i wanst too sure for a while - felt that i was headin' for a D....but...my FWW earned her spot behind me on the "bitch seat". I made it - and so will you.

I didnt want my marriage back like it was pre A....i wanted it "better"....and at a year out - it was.

Take a deep breath....dont back down on your demands...

Keep the wind on your back...and your face to the sun....ride on, bro...

Keep us posted...peace.....

Bufffalo

[This message edited by bufffalo at 6:19 PM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

I am not sure our pay as you go plan allows access to those records...she did admit (yesterday) to texting him or talking to him almost daily after D-Day. I told her that a new cell phone was a dealbreaker.

Find out.

And if you don't have cell phone records, get on a plan IMMEDIATELY that has them. Because sticking with the pay as you go phone now is giving her a tool for continuing the affairs. New phones. New numbers. And she blocks the numbers of the OMs. That's what NC looks like.

AND you call the BS of the OM with whom she went underground with and you ask to see THEIR records. You get her to partner with you on this. Of course, OM might already have a secret cell phone or may get one.

Does she have unusually large cell phone bills? Please check into this. PLEASE get on a plan where you can track her.

Does she keep her phone out in the open? Will she just let you see it and hand it over?

You may ask to see it, or take a look when she's asleep (something depressed people do a lot of).

Don't stick your head in the sand on this.

Good question Feb.

Quick question for anyone who wants to reply...I mentioned earlier that posting on other's threads helped me be objective about my own situation and perhaps learn/internalize a little. Do you find the same thing when you post on this thread?

I have other reasons for posting on other people's threads than I've read most people have. Some background would help explain my reasons.

I discovered SI because I was trying to heal. H was behaving like the ideal spouse by then, he didn't go underground or TT once he was out of the fog. He snapped right out of it, and became a better man than he was before the A. However, I had become one of the walking wounded (and still am sometimes...I still feel "disposable" now, 1 1/2 years later.)

When I am not asking for other people's perspective or help on how to get whole again, I post on other people's threads to encourage them, and get outside of myself. Since the A, I am so focused on myself, trying to heal, that I have realized I need look outside of myself, and lend a helping hand to others.

I'm not very good at it, though...I rarely go to Just Found Out....it is too painful for me to read other people's stories. Usually my mind goes blank and I don't have anything supportive to say. Sometimes I manage to come up with something encouraging so they know they have been heard, and I give them a hug.

But in your case, since you are not writhing on the floor with pain, I did not join you, but managed to say objective enough to process your thread and tell you some of my perceptions.

When I said "you're not writhing on the floor with pain" I didn't mean to imply that you were not in pain. I just sensed the pain is not destroying you. When some people post here (myself included) one can sense they are completely demolished, but you seem to be able to keep it together in spite of your pain.

Doormats? I'll raise my hand as a former member.

Much good information lately. Just a few of the remarks that continue to strike me:

She is used to control. And losing your shit is a form of control. 'I am not saying she is in an back room planning like a mother fucker. She is grasping for what feels good and safe and requires the least amount of work.' You didn't get to lose your shit did you? You know why? Not just because you are strong but because you were not entirely sure you would have someone there to catch you when you fell.

But she is sure. Very, very sure. Think about it feb.

I bolded (edited to put single quotes as bold did not work within quote tags) what I think is an important part of this. She may not necessarily be 'planning' on manipulative tactics. WS probably has an inability to acknowledge her feeling and deal with them in a way appropriate to your M; her coping mechanisms are what cause the destructiveness.

Man she is a total player. She has your number down.

Please do not take this meanly. She probably doesn't even realize the extent of her manipulations.

In the Korea conflict a cease-fire was reached before either side won. What have we now? A divided country and armed men watching each other through barbed wire.

She isn't alone in this. It takes a while for many WS's to find their way to authentic. But I have to warn you that tears and anxiety may be a sign of real pain but it doesn't mean she isn't as fucked up as she was last week or the week beofre.

You love her. And want to keep the marriage. You are clingng to the life rafts that you have been tossed. I would too. But keep your skepticism my friend.

Step outside yourself here. I know it seems like we all have out bitch pants on -- but none of this is new. We have seen shit like this and not just in our own situations. No one is trying to kill your hope. But you have to try to see things from all sides.

You mention 'manipulating' your WS. I don't see that. Most of the advice I see is, don't assume the breakdown means remorse.

So don't coddle or assuage. Don't offer sympathy. Stand stoic.

You had an excellent response that you would guarantee nothing to her query, "will you still be around?"

Rather than manipulation, what you are doing is both ascertaining what the true cause of her pain is and whether what she does about it will facilitate healing within your M.

If her pain is over you and her family, then she needs to feel compelled, from within, to address it properly. When she steps up and does so for awhile, then you can begin to support her while she does the work.

If her pain is due to losing cake, her inability to garner consolation from you during her 'crisis' will soon reveal that.

I don't see manipulation, just a guy protecting himself by not falling for anything just yet...a wait-and-see.

I think you're doing well. I see much evidence in your approach these days that you have a clearer head and a more, no-nonsense approach. I think this has contributed greatly to what looks to be some decent progress. But it also might help you to try limiting the second-guessing and assuming of your WS symptoms and possible motivations might be.

Stick to a plan, then wait-and-see...it'll become crystal clear when you are no longer affected by the conscious, or sub-conscious manipulations of WS.

[This message edited by SomewhatWorried at 10:06 AM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

Feb,

Someone else said it but it is totally true--you will know true remorse when it happens. Until then, it is just hope. There is nothing wrong with having hope--hell, that is the only reason I stayed married.

But it truly took my WH seeing that I was honestly done before he got it.

Now, he is the epitome of remorse, and makes me KNOW, without a doubt, that he is here to do whatever it takes, plain and simple, to help me heal.

You will know the difference.

Just a thought here. My WH also got depressed after D-Day.

He got depressed because he could not longer drink on the road.

Had to be in his hotel room by ten.

Could no longer go to bars by himself.

Had to answer questions he didn't want to, and go to IC and MC.

Did not have previous freedom to do what ever the hell he wanted. His whole lifestyle in his other compartmentalized fucked up world had to change.

Could no longer go to lunches or dinners w/female colleagues.

Our lifestyle has changed. I am not interested in traveling with him.

His hot trophy wife is no longer interested in the great sex life we had.

The friends that know think he is an idiot.

If we get divorced in this economy we will not be able to sell our homes. I would be hard pressed to find a job. We would be financially devastated.

Blah, blah, blah. I could go on and on.

He was/is one of the WH's who also demanded forgiveness. Why? Cause I have always forgiven him. Do I think he is depressed, yes I do. But not because of what he has done to me and our family, he is depressed cause his life is screwed up. He is angry that his lifestyle has changed, it is no longer fun and exciting. We lived in a fairytale, and unknowing to me the clock struck 12. To give him credit he does try. He is over the 2 years of sheer hell started to improve. He has talked the talk the whole time. I am just starting to see that MAYBE he can walk the walk.

You might want to think about why your wife is depressed. It might have nothing to do with true remorse for what she has done to you and the kids. It might be because her lifestyle and what she wants just came to a screeching halt. Looks like she had a pretty good life going. There are so many women who would love to have her life and what was offered. She took advantage of it, and now it may possibly end. Being a single mom sucks. Consequences for bad behavior suck.

Waywards get to this point in their lives by being selfish. That takes a while to unlearn. Of course she wants you to stay home from work and your sisters house. Because when you leave she loses the nanny, chauffeur, cleaner, cook, bill payer, and her own personal assistant. There has been a lot of good advice given on this thread. I know you feel bad for her, but the dynamics of the relationship have to shift. As long as you are her KISA she has no reason to change. You can't keep propping her up. She needs to stand up and put her big girl panties on by herself. She has to do the work, or you are going to be reliving this nightmare again in a few years.

[This message edited by AREYOUKIDDINGME? at 10:22 AM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

Feb,

Being a history buff also, I wanted to throw another analogy/comparison at you:

After WWI, the Allies went to addressing their own issues and never let Germany(your WW) hit rock bottom.

Germany was a lost place, full of resentment for Versailles, and not looking deep into themselves for the real problems that they had.

And what became of them?

By no means am I bashing Germans--but the comparison of what can happen when something festers from within without being correctly addressed---can be disasterous. Your WW has to WANT to fix herself for the right reasons. She has to take full responsibility---and WANT TO DO THAT--so she can better herself.

It is your job to be true to yourself. Japan had to endure unconditional surrender---be brought to complete shame---so it could rebuild and be respected throughout the world later in time. Your WW has to be UNCONDITIONAL, and want to, to try to save your marriage.

Don't negotiate.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 7:22 PM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

Strange how the same acronym applies both to my wife and the "war to end all wars".

Continuing to offer support to you in prayer.

You are strong.

You are deserving.

You are honorable.

You are respectful.

You are taking care of yourself.

You are a great Dad.

Hugs and Hugs

You might want to think about why your wife is depressed. It might have nothing to do with true remorse for what she has done to you and the kids. It might be because her lifestyle and what she wants just came to a screeching halt. Looks like she had a pretty good life going. There are so many women who would love to have her life and what was offered. She took advantage of it, and now it may possibly end. Being a single mom sucks. Consequences for bad behavior suck.

I agree, and I told her that I was mad because so much of her depression seemed to be about her friends and her lifestyle, and so little seemed to be about us. (I use the two of us and the five us interchangeably in these "chats")

Waywards get to this point in their lives by being selfish. That takes a while to unlearn. Of course she wants you to stay home from work and your sisters house. Because when you leave she loses the nanny, chauffeur, cleaner, cook, bill payer, and her own personal assistant. There has been a lot of good advice given on this thread. I know you feel bad for her, but the dynamics of the relationship have to shift. As long as you are her KISA she has no reason to change.

I actually looked up KISA and found Korean Iron and Steel Association among others, before I figured it out myself. (Knight in Shining Armor)...I have already told her that I always liked being that for her, showing my love, but that it can never be like that again. She does understand that...but she doesn't "get it" yet.

I'm starting to hear the "You're a good guy, and I'm such a schmuck. Why do you still want me" kind of thing. I try to be non-commital and say because of the first 10 years, or the kids, or even, i'm not sure if I do.

I'm starting to hear the "You're a good guy, and I'm such a schmuck. Why do you still want me" kind of thing. I try to be non-commital and say because of the first 10 years, or the kids, or even, i'm not sure if I do.

The last sentence you gave here is important---especially the part of YOU being unsure. She needs to continually know that she only has a CHANCE with you...and she needs to fight hard for it.

I know that you are not fully and willfully independent of her, but hasn't the detachment made you feel better? To me, it felt like I was FINALLY starting to take my life back...and to have some control.

Just to be able to stand my ground---and MEAN it---got me to a level that I felt was impossible just weeks prior. I hope you have felt liberated to some extent.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 12:57 PM, April 6th (Wednesday)]

I try to be non-commital and say because of the first 10 years, or the kids, or even, i'm not sure if I do.

These are good, but they still feed into her self-pity party. A simple response like "Good question....I need to think about that" is as un-committal as it can get.