SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm posting this in general but it's for everyone. I know many of my posts come across as trying to piss on people's Wheaties, but it really isn't the goal. Just offering another perspective.

How good are you at accepting reality? I read on here and online articles that affairs are fantasy. I don't believe that at all. Fantasy is the act of imagining things that are impossible or improbable. That's the part that always gets me. It's not imagining. It's acting. You are "really" breaking your vows, "really" fucking someone else (PA's), "really" betraying your vows and your spouse and the resulting pain for all is quite real. So where's the fantasy?

The answers are as baffling as the original thought, to me. It's not real love. They don't really know one another. They haven't seen each other at their worst (I'd argue that as choosing to cheat IS pretty much the worst). Ok. That also describes almost every new relationship and marriage.

To me, affairs are about something far more malignant than fantasy. They're about "potential" and potential can be a very dangerous thing indeed. An affair can give the participants the arsenic of potential love, happiness, completion that they feel they're missing.

People plan their lives, make huge decisions, pick their partners on "potential".

It's dangerous because it's usually based on a proffer of qualities or abilities one possesses that are very appealing.  A peek of action/s that's been offered as proof of an implied consistency that may in fact be complete illusion. Once the peek has been given it's often viewed as hard static fact when in reality it's sometimes a "hook". The actual product is quite different but now that you spent your last dime buying it you compound the problem by mentally masturbating the facts until they resemble the happy ending you desire.

Reconciliation can be the same way. So can relationships, marriages, employment, friends, investments, children, yourself. Potential is nothing...it's less than nothing as it's viewed as a promise/guarantee.  It's valueless unless the tools and consistent effort are in place to convert that to reality.

Reality is what you have right now right in front of you. That's what you can bank on. A spouse that is unable to maintain no contact isn't a good person that's capable of being faithful.  They're a cheater. That's what you have right now. A partner that lies to you isn't someone that's able to tell the truth and be transparent. They're a liar. That's what you have. Someone that hits you when they are angry isn't a person that can contain their rage. They're an abuser. A person willing to break their vows to find something they feel can fix, heal, help, fill, comfort, love is unhealthy and toxic. That's what you have. They aren't a soulmate capable of healthy love. They aren't your happiness.

Do they have the potential to be better? Yep. What does that mean? Nothing. Have you seen them be loving and caring toward you? Yes. What does that mean? Nothing. They aren't now and that's what you have.

The thing about all this that bothers me so much is that the same chase of potential that fuel some affairs is what happens in so many marriages, relationships, reconciliations, as well.  The present blows on an epic level but the potential of it getting better is such an unbelievable hook, addiction in itself. Our very self worth, esteem, sense of self seems at times to hang in the balance. We need this to work to matter. We have to have the potential of this as our future or all we dreamed, planned, counted on is gone and we have NOTHING.

Now, THAT is fantasy. We never have nothing and our worth is never defined by another. NEVER.

I'm not talking about having a remorseful partner that's doing whatever they can do to become healthy and safe for you. That's a reality and a very good one at that and even that may not be enough.

Hope isn't hope if it's linked to a specific outcome so accepting reality isn't giving up hope. It's dealing with what you have with the hope of a positive future and the understanding you will be ok regardless.

So make your choices and decisions based on what you have right now in front of you as if you're protecting the most priceless thing in the world, which you are. Yourself.

Brilliant. You're so right - a lot of R is pretending and wanting something that isn't in front of us. We need to accept what IS right now. We need to act on the known, not the potential.

Thank you for such a thought provoking post.

To me, affairs are about something far more malignant than fantasy. They're about "potential" and potential can be a very dangerous thing indeed. An affair can give the participants the arsenic of potential love, happiness, completion that they feel they're missing.

I think a lot of that potential is still based in fantasy.

An awful lot of affairs (not ALL but a lot) kind of lose their steam once a bright light is shined on them and the bubble of 'potential' has burst. A good dose of reality has a way of doing that.

I have heard this view before, and I can buy in to most of it. However, I know that in my situation, it was a fantasy that my H and OW could have their relationship and not destroy me and my children. There was a period of time (when he was lost in alcohol abuse, sleep deprivation and PTSD) when he believed that she was meeting his needs, could make him happy and that me and our children were not and would not be hurt by what he was doing.

There was no potential for that to be reality. We were being destroyed. My sons both recognized that their father was constantly angry, constantly discontented at home and found any reason whatsoever not to be around us. I recognized and was harmed by that as well, and never imagined that he was betraying me so completely.

OW believed that he was in love with her and that they could make each other happy and she could "fix" him. There was no potential for that to happen in reality. None whatsoever. His problems were so much deeper and she was a temporary fix that could never solve what was really there.

Was the affair and the betrayal real? Absolutely. That's not where the fantasy was. IMO, the fantasy exists in the mind of the WS and the OP who think that what they have is so perfect and wonderful and special and unique, and that they can do what they are doing without harming/destroying the people who love them.

IMO, the fantasy exists in the mind of the WS and the OP who think that what they have is so perfect and wonderful and special and unique, and that they can do what they are doing without harming/destroying the people who love them.

Yeah, this is what I thought was the fantasy part; that he could engage in As without it affecting our relationship.

[This message edited by icbtih8 at 11:39 AM, November 21st (Monday)]

ok, I'll bite, UO, because you and I so are fond of semantics.

It is an incredibly over-jargonised and shorthanded area, and for sure overused terminology can render itself meaningless. For example, I would never describe a WS as broken, as if there were a paradigm of perfection.

Conversely, however, I am happy with the use of the word 'fantasy' - in the way you are using it (as dichotomous to 'reality') - in terms of [most] affairs, whether it be the escape from reality (everday mundanity of chores and bills); or an attempt to reverse time to the freedom and irresponsibility of youth; or a fantastical search for the potentialities of the self through enthronement; the thrill of the 'unknown' also fantasy-fulfillment; equally the roles rejected and adopted in the enactment of an A; all very much of the imagination, and mainly in the imagination, as opposed to the 'real fucking' (being merely the currency and price of the fantasy), and the improbablities and impossibilities you define as characteristics of fantasy, to me why the safety of an A is chosen, as opposed to anything more challenging. Leastways that what it seems to me.

But that small cavil does not detract from the main, very important, point of your post for each of us to negotiate an interesting, healthy and yes, sometime fantastical path between idealism and realism as we wend out way through potentialities.

(Speaking as someone who has not, and will now not, fulfilled her childhood potential. )

I very strongly disagree with the first half of your post re: potential and fantasy.

Potential is about an unrealized, hoped-for result. Fantasy is about unreality; unreality as a perception, or perceived reality. Potential as you describe it cannot thrive without the fantasy context.

Yes, she had sex with another man, often and over a long period of time; yes, she told him she loved him, and yes she told me terrible things. That isn't the fantasy; the fantasy is that she did this within a context that excluded necessary elements from objective reality.

The fantasy that she would live independently, get a degree and a job and that OM was a reliable, handy "alpha male" was predicated on excluding several foundations from perception without excluding them from objective reality. Her weekend excursions were a reality based on my keeping the kids for the weekend, which is a direct conflict with the idea that I am both unreliable and unsafe. Her completion of her degree was a reality based on the incredible hard work she put into it over a short period of time due to my adjustment of work scheduling on order to pick up the slack needed for her to get that done, which directly conflicted with the idea that I was not supportive, available or again reliable. A host of other examples builds a fantasy context within which the potential you describe can be chased.

The statement "They don't really know each other" isn't about a lack of information but information provided under false pretext, as well as outright false information. While this certainly can be the case for relationships where infidelity is not (yet?) an issue, in such situations where a fantasy construct has been built up it follows necessarily. In both instances it is a definite problem, and while they are both legitimate positions only one applies to infidelity. Being gamed by a player, for example, while running parallel is on a different track.

I agree with just about everything else you said, especially about the reality of now and making choices based on what is in front of you. Sometimes we hesitate, because what we see in front of us has so often been misrepresented and falsified, but you cannot plan for every contingency and you cannot live well if you fear every possible outcome.

Sorry if that was too rambling, I realize I haven't eaten anything today except coffee and tea.

Thanks. I was saying something along these lines this morning, though not quite so eloquently.

Was the affair and the betrayal real? Absolutley. That's not where the fantasy was. IMO, the fantasy exists in the mind of the WS and the OP who think that what they have is so perfect and wonderful and special and unique, and that they can do what they are doing without/harming destroying the people who love them.

I agree with this.

In my particular sitch, the only potential my FWH saw in the OW was that he would be able to have someone to f**k on the side for an unlimited amount of time. He saw no potential for it going beyond someone he f**ked on the side and he thought he'ld be able to do that for our entire marriage, not because he was so fond of her, but because she was willing. That is a fucking fantasy!

affairs are about something far more malignant than fantasy.

I agree. I always have.

Still, I fought very (read that: insanely) long against this reality.

On good days, which come far more often than not these days, I accept reality. I have surrendered what I have no control over. On bad days, the word, "surrender," recently tattooed inside my wrist, is a prayer, rather than a credo.

Thankfully, I seem to have finally gotten it. My X? Never will. He will always be chasing something that does not exist.

And that, I accept. (It happens to have been the hardest thing to accept. It was hard, because it meant we stood no chance, and it was hard because...well, it hurt to see someone self-destruct.)

Potential is about an unrealized, hoped-for result

Exactly. And that's some affairs are. Also why they're so dangerous. A hoped for result unrealized only because of the limits of being married, in the participants mind.  "She/he really loves me and I could have everything I want with them". This based on the snapshots of time spent with someone equally deluded.

If it weren't for the illicitness and breaking of vows...very similar to early dating, in my view.

Conversely, however, I am happy with the use of the word 'fantasy' - in the way you are using it (as dichotomous to 'reality') - in terms of [most] affairs, whether it be the escape from reality (everday mundanity of chores and bills); or an attempt to reverse time to the freedom and irresponsibility of youth; or a fantastical search for the potentialities of the self through enthronement; the thrill of the 'unknown' also fantasy-fulfillment; equally the roles rejected and adopted in the enactment of an A; all very much of the imagination, and mainly in the imagination, as opposed to the 'real fucking' (being merely the currency and price of the fantasy), and the improbablities and impossibilities you define as characteristics of fantasy, to me why the safety of an A is chosen, as opposed to anything more challenging. Leastways that what it seems to me.

^^This^^

Exactly. And that's some affairs are. Also why they're so dangerous. A hoped for result unrealized only because of the limits of being married, in the participants mind.

Yes; it dovetails with what you said in the end - that potential can only be assumed as accessible by denying what's real.

safety of an A is chosen, as opposed to anything more challenging

Edie, I loved your post.

I realize very clearly that everyone is different...both WS's and BS's. I've read in the wayward forum and see the word fantasy to describe exactly how they felt so I'm certainly not saying that's not true.

It's just not something I can relate to as it didn't exist in any aspect of mine and as I hear some others not theirs either.

I think what is the crux for some is how they view potential. There was a statement made that the affair "potential" is fantasy. No matter what you call it that's what potential is really and that was actually much of my point.

Many can get caught up in the "promise" of potential. It's a hook. You see a glimpse so imagine a lifetime from that glimpse, whether marriage, job, hobby, friend, SO, whatever.

My point was how dangerous that can be. What's real is what is right in front of you. Accepting that can be very hard for some regardless of the letter in front of the S.

UO, that is beautifully stated and I think we are on the same page now that I have read your follow up post.

I love reading your thought-provoking threads.

Nice post UO. I too have balked at the term 'fantasy' but never posted about it. People constantly write on here that it wasn't a real relationship or real love because it was a 'fantasy'. I completely disagree. Heck, if that were the case then almost everyone's relationship started as a 'fantasy'.

Dated in college and fell in love? How is that 'real life' then? No stress, partying a lot (for many), no real bills, etc. Complete fantasy life - so those people were not 'in love'?

High school? Same thing?

Oh, you fell in love in your 20s? When you lived with your parents? The list goes on and on.

You DO get to know someone when you are having an affair. It's not a fantasy at all. No, you don't have to raise kids with them, pay bills etc....no, you don't have to deal with the day to day mundane stuff - but it IS a very real, very fucked up relationship. It's not a fantasy.

A fantasy is me thinking I may run into Johnny Depp and he falls in love with me at first sight. THAT is a fantasy .

Incidentally, I love when you post this stuff. I have a running list in my head of '2x4s' I want to write to all of the BS out there. I won't do it, but this is one of the things on the list. I understand the need for a BS to think that it was just a 'fantasy' because the reality of thinking their WS was actually in a relationship with someone else is hard, but it IS, in my opinion, the reality.

I understand the need for a BS to think that it was just a 'fantasy' because the reality of thinking their WS was actually in a relationship with someone else is hard, but it IS, in my opinion, the reality.

No. Fantasy was a word used by my WH to describe his thought process. His fantasy was thinking that what he was doing was not that bad and that he was not hurting me by his interactions with other women. Fantasy has never been a word I've used in regards to his As. Please don't assume we all BS's use the word fantasy in the same way.

Please don't assume we all BS's use the word fantasy in the same way.

I am so sorry I offended you. I was only responding in how it related to my life and my affair. Maybe because my AP and I actually discussed how much we were hurting our BS's, I did forget that I do read on here that many WS's did live in that 'fantasy'. Your description of what your husband called fantasy is valid and may not fit in with what I was saying.

I apologize and was not trying to generalize, only answer based on my experience and a lot of what I read on here when people use the term 'fantasy'.

UO, I think we're on the same page, just as I prefaced. Think our different feelings about the term are just that, different, as maybe I do not have the same qualms about its valency to self-delusion, and so for me it's not the panacea you are warning against.

T/j to Helpmegetoverit. As warned earlier, I am in semantic mood, and really do differ on terminology with you regarding 'falling' in love, but that's a pet hate and Erich Fromm is really good about that aspect of 'falling' as abject surrender of self, as opposed to love as a practice, and yes, i do agree with UO that every relationship does begin as fantasy. more interested in your certainty of the word 'real'. You seem so absolute and yet it is such a contested term. Why does the word fantasy make you prickle so much?

Why does the word fantasy make you prickle so much?

I guess because I see it used on here so often to mitigate things that happened during an affair. A BS will be upset (rightfully so) because their WS told the AP they were in love, claimed it was love, etc. Often, other BS will chime in and say 'no no, it wasn't real love, it was a fantasy.'

I say bull - it WAS real love. Misdirected love? Sure. Wrong? Absolutely? Tons of other words one can use to describe it.

But a fantasy? I don't agree. I say tackle it head on, be upset, admit it was a reality and decide what you are going to do about it, how you are going to work through it and move forward in reconciliation or not. Saying it was a fantasy is just an attempt, again in my opinion, to 'justify' that your WS didn't really mean what he/she was doing or saying.

Oh, and again, I haven't read all of the responses yet, so maybe my post wasn't relevant. I read the original post and replied based on my interpretation of it and how it seems to me to be used. I'll go back and read them all eventually :-).

[This message edited by helpemegetoverit at 6:04 PM, November 21st (Monday)]