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One issue BH and I have discussed is his view that (let me put this nicely)- "most men leave" I have always been in favor of equality so we tried to discuss it. i think he sees is as a sign of weakness for a man to stay. What I kind of got from him is more men have the financial option to go, men have an "ego issue" or are more territerorial, have an easier time finding a new relationship and generally a harder time accepting the situation. Apparently the studies he reads reflect more men leave. Women who are WW are viewed as "damaged goods" more than men.

Do people only stay because they are too weak to leave or too committed to the idea of saving a marriage at any cost?

I really mean these questions to be rethorical and NOT a reflection on any person's personal choice or situation. I am thinking about our society and not commenting, judging, inciting or in any way trying to cause a fuss.

I just wonder sometimes if the roles were reversed- i am pretty sure I would still want to R but don't know if he would want to do the work.

Interesting. A month after Dday, my BH had lunch with OM's BW and one of the things she said to him was, 'you are behaving like a typical betrayed wife and I like a typical betrayed husband' (she had told OM the marriage was over and he had moved out of house).

My BH thought this was quite a stupid thing to say, as he could care less what anyone else did or what was 'typical'. I have lost count of how many people were impressed with the way my BH handled things (many people knew) and saw him as strong, self-controlled, and a good loving husband.

I think that the reaction of the BS has more to do with the individual situation, how the affair came out, what the state of the marriage is, whether there are young children, and the reaction of the WS, rather than the gender.

I think that the reaction of the BS has more to do with the individual situation, how the affair came out, what the state of the marriage is, whether there are young children, and the reaction of the WS, rather than the gender.

I agree. Neeever thought my BH would stick around. He looked at me like I was insane when I asked if he wanted to seperate. (Not that I wanted to! It was strictly asked so I could comply to his wishes.) He's committed to R and never once faltered on that decision no matter what the general population may think.

Do people only stay because they are too weak to leave or too committed to the idea of saving a marriage at any cost?

I think it's more difficult to stay and work on your M if both spouses want R. The WS needs to show the remorse and guilt and actively work on themselves. Both need to be ready to change. The WS supports the BS and comforts them...it can't be easy for the WS to see how much pain they cause their BS. I know they caused the pain but how many face up to what they did wrong and make it right? Not as many as those that leave. This doesn't apply to those WS who stay, but never accept responsibility or work on themselves.

If the WS leaves then they don't have to be reminded of how they destroyed their BS. They aren't there to comfort the BS and tell them how much they are loved. Nope, leaving is weak if its done bc the WS can't face what they have done to their BS.

Apparently the studies he reads reflect more men leave.

Yes, but...

when a WW has an affair, it is more likely than a WH to also be an EA. It is much tougher to reconcile a marriage when an EA is involved because of the emotional attachment to the AP. So even though the marriage is less likely to survive when the WW is the one that cheats, I believe it probably has more to do with the type of affair rather than the WS's gender.

men have an "ego issue" or are more territerorial

I disagree with this. An affair is very painful and causes severe emotional suffering. How one responds to this level of suffering is purely personal. In addition, there are just too many other factors that come into play that also influence someone's decision to stay in the marriage. Even though I am a happily reconciled BH, I would not blame anyone (male or female) for wanting to leave as a result of infidelity.

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 3:50 PM, April 3rd (Tuesday)]

I have followed a number of BH here on SI and based on that group a vast majority want’s to save the marriage. However I have noticed that once into initial reconciliation the interest hit’s a wall. I think that in many cases the initial drive to save the marriage is a male need to reclaim their “property”. Sort of like an alpha male reclaiming what was taken away from him. Once they get it back… well… it’s not so shiny and new.

What I kind of got from him is men have the financial option to go

Maybe if there are no minor children involved. Did the WW work? If not, depending on length of marriage, he could wind up paying child support, alimony, lose half his retirement. There are a lot of factors when considering leaving, and I believe that financial reasons are one of the biggest reasons people actually try to stick it out instead of leaving.

men have an "ego issue" or are more territerorial, have an easier time finding a new relationship and generally a harder time accepting the situation

Women have just a hard of a time getting over infidelity as men. The way I view the world through my personal lens reminds me of a friend who always quoted, "dicks are a dime a dozen." Someone else probably says the same thing about women. There are plenty of fish in the sea, for both genders.

Women who are WW are viewed as "damaged goods" more than men.

Anyone who cheats is damaged in some way and certainly not a prize by any means. A WW is no more appealing nor forgivable than a WH.

Everything I have read indicates that the most important thing regarding recovery is how things are handled in the time immediately following discovery of the affair. far more important than what happened during.

Women are also more likely to leave the marriage for their AP than men are.

This tells me that on average, women are having different types of affairs, detaching more from their spouse, attaching more to their AP. Men are more likely to be able to detach from an AP, viewing the A as something stupid to have a bit of meaningless fun on the side and less likely to romanticize the whole thing. There is also not the same roadmap for redemption for women, as most of the info available assumes that men are the ones cheating.

Like any average, it is composed of a whole lot of data points forming a bell curve. There is a lot of overlap between the male and female bell curves even if the average is different. Those who fall on the right side of the bell curve in their behaviour are more likely to achieve R, those who fall on the wrong side are more likely to get D.

People stay because of their history together, and underlying love for each other, and because D sucks. They don't always stay together, because sometimes D does not appear to suck as much as staying.

Sorry I have not read all of your posts WFL, but I have noticed that an awful lot of them are regarding your BH's thoughts and reactions to the A, but I do not recall seeing any about your A itself. Don't know what you are doing IRL, but if it is like my observation about the posting, it could be driving his choices.

Divorce is not easy. It's a mess and often people's financial situation can become dire when families split.

The pain the children go through is also a very tough thing.

Those two facts alone are enough, in some cases to attempt to reconcile for both BH and BW's, in my opinion.

After that it seems more to break down by personality, at least in the couples I've been close to or observed in real life.

That has proved true, again in my experience, regardless of the remorse of the WS.

I've seen situations where the BS was quite detached prior and was dialed in to almost stalker status after. I've also seen the opposite. The BS was very loving and supportive then after wanted nothing to do with their WS regardless.

I do think the healing is quicker and more "complete" (lack of a better term at present) if the couple divorces.

It wasn't until I came here that I saw couples that seem to be truly reconciling.

It honestly didn't break down by gender at all, for me and those I know. All different.

I think the shiny toy thing is equal to both and rather sad. It also speaks to a mind set that doesn't have a very healthy appreciation for either sex. Doubt future choices will be much better.

Same with those not very experienced with rejection. I think all too often the feelings and chemicals that feed those feelings are confused with "I must really love them or why would I hurt so much". For them, their value requires another.  

Wishing,

I'm a two-time BS. My first H cheated less than two years into the M. I divorced him. Never tried for R. It didn't even cross my mind.

When FWH cheated, I always wanted to R (but only if he found remorse).

My gender didn't change so what was different? I had more investment in FWH. We've been married longer and we share a child. I felt every bit of the disgust and humiliation I felt the first time, but I felt it more deeply with FWH. I loved him more. We had built a life together that meant something- to me, at least- and I didn't want to let that go. I never felt that with my first H.

I was free to walk both times. I'm financially independent. I could walk, and I never worried about not being able to care for our son. That wasn't factored into my choice. It was because I wanted to be M to my H.

But not at any cost. I was clear from the start that nothing less than his total commitment to healing himself and our M would keep me from D. That wasn't a weak choice. It took tremendous strength at a time when I felt like I didn't have any strength left.

I would never say any BS is weak when he or she holds out for remorse and commits to a true R with both spouses doing the work. It takes balls/ovaries of steel to live through that.

How interesting - Ive had this convo with my MIL about that very thing - just to fill u in quickly - Im the bs and my MIL also had a ws (bs found them together actually)...

She said flat out in front of ws (her son) that most men leave... He looked shocked - and after a moment said "I think I would stay"...

Very interesting - also times are changing, many women (myself included) CAN be financially stable before, during and after a possible S/D... OK I'm rambling now however this is all very interesting reads for me today - so thank you :)

Very interesting. I too struggle with the stigma associated with being a BH. It is tough for me to see staying as being a manly thing to do, especially if the BH believes the A is insulting his masculinity.

I still think it is very individual, but any insecurities seem to be grossly magnified by an A. For me, her motivation and my own insecurities were a lethal combination. I also believe that most men in my situation would have left. I stay because I know I can always leave, but if I leave now, I will never come back. I've given it a year, I can give it another if things go well. I have nothing to prove to anyone but me. As long as she is cordial and taking our M seriously, I can be equally as polite and give our M a chance.

Before d-day, I thought any woman who stayed married to a cheater was a saint. I thought any man who stayed married to a cheater was a complete loser. The A's have made me reshape the way I view life.

Not sure if any of my comments helped, but I wish you good luck all the same.

This is a repost of a reply I made to another WS. This is my opinion only but is from the BH perspective.

Kaitlyn Asked: I guess my question is how am I suppose to ever get through to him and make feel what I feel for him when he won't let me in?

You must convince him he has nothing to fear from you.

As a BH I understand exactly what goes through a man's mind after infidelity. Not much of it is pretty. I could shock you all with my unguarded, unedited thoughts.

The best way to describe it is to picture an auditorium or quorum hall. Parliament if you like. There is one voice that speaks to the outside world at the front of the room, but within that room are all the other voices that should never be heard like Anger, Fear, Hate, Suspicion and Doubt. There are the voices we all want to hear like Love, Faith, Trust, Compassion, and Eros. This is just a sampling as it seems like many more.

For me the huge hurdle was getting the negative voices off the stage and back to the back of the room and back in their cages where they belong. These voices have their proper place and they had not only gotten out of it they had seized control. Getting them back where they belong was the hardest thing I ever had to do. Even now I can't claim complete victory because they can still make themselves heard over the crowd, sometimes they get loose too, and I find myself struggling to put them away again.

For me, Fear and Anger are the most insidious and the most dangerous. Fear is by far the craftiest of the two. The biggest part of this comes from how men and boys are raised. We are taught from an early age that we must be aggressive warriors in our daily lives. We must be strong, unflinchingly so. Compassion for others comes from strength, ie. "I am secure in the world now, therefore I can help you if you need it" We are taught from an early age that the world will beat us and eat us alive if we are not strong and careful. As we grow to become Men we learn to keep others at a certain distance, even our friends, brothers and sisters and our parents. Even our children are kept a certain distance away though closer than most because for them we must be Guardian and Teacher. Only one is allowed "inside our shield arm" where they can strike us in an unprotected spot.

Women generally have a hard time with this concept. Just as men have a hard time with the concept of giving birth. It is alien thinking. Boys learn from the beginning that, someday, they will be Husbands and Fathers, Guardians and Teachers and Providers. That they must fight to earn this right. Why do you think we still say "He won her heart" or "He swept her off her feet"?

My wife's affair was a crushing blow. A dagger in the back from an unexpected foe. The ONE person I could let my guard down with, the ONE person I could let inside my shield arm. Worse, I had lost a battle I didn't know I was fighting! HE, the OTHER, had won. By his stealth and my weakness he had slipped in and taken what I thought was safely mine, had subverted my one safe person to be my enemy and used her like a weapon against me.

Understand that this is my way of explaining the concepts and feelings that many men share deep down. None of it is politically correct in this modern age but it is still true nonetheless.

Kaitlyn, your husband still fears you. He is afraid to let you back in under his shield. That may change and it may not. One thing that will help you is to understand that most men are hopeless romantics at heart. We wear the armor of Men grudgingly at best.

You must ease his fear.

You must show him that you are not a threat to him anymore and hope that this fear has not jaded him beyond feeling for any woman ever again.

I struggled with staying. Once I gave it some time (common and good advice for any BS) I had trouble forgiving myself for staying.

For me the little voice in the back of my head started with thoughts like "Don't you have any respect for yourself ?" ," She is just pacifying you for now so she can do it again," "She doesn't love you, if she did she wouldn't so this, She and OM are laughing at you, etc"

You get the idea. It took me some time to be better with this and a whole lot of encouragement and ownership taking from my W. Honestly I still struggle sometimes. My Ws efforts were key to silencing those thoughts. We discuss it sometimes. The thing that helps most is when she takes the reason for the A completely hon herself (Owns her choice to have an A), and reassures me that this really had nothing to do with me or my faults as a H or father.

Pre-A issues if brought up in this context are probably heard by your H as justifications for the A or cuts on him. Essentially it makes those thoughts more believable.

Here is a link to most of a letter my W left for me after we tried to discuss me feeling bad for staying and she felt attacked. The convo didn't end well. The letter was things she wanted to say, but couldn't in the context of being attacked.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=450667&AP=21&HL=28542

IMHO until your H can view that the decision to have an A was about you and believe it, he will have these thoughts. More specific he will have these thoughts and listen to them. Try to separate M issues and A issues. Take them individually and one at one time.

I wish you and your H the best in your healing. There are no options in this that are "easier." They are all extremely hard and painful. You get through them, not past them. You can only control what you do. His choices are his own, but helping him realize that the stigma associated with staying with you is misplaced can depend heavily on your attitude and actions.

My Ws efforts were key to silencing those thoughts. We discuss it sometimes. The thing that helps most is when she takes the reason for the A completely hon herself (Owns her choice to have an A), and reassures me that this really had nothing to do with me or my faults as a H or father.

Pre-A issues if brought up in this context are probably heard by your H as justifications for the A or cuts on him. Essentially it makes those thoughts more believable.

Yep. I am not convinced it is a gender thing at all. As Harden My Heart pointed out there are many reasons why men may leave more frequently not all of them because they are men.

R is not easy for anyone. From both personal experience and from what I have read the single (there are many important ones, kids, length and quality of the M, etc) biggest factor in successful recovery is the WS's ability to support and give the BS what they need. To show them they want the M. To show them they want back in. Both men and women will appreciate that.

biggest factor in successful recovery is the WS's ability to support and give the BS what they need. To show them they want the M. To show them they want back in. Both men and women will appreciate that.

This nicely summarizes some relevant thoughts I had but was unable to express. The requirements of the WS are fairly familiar to most men from the early stages of dating. Actively pursuing and expressing interest. This is unfamiliar territory for most women, for whom the early dating role tends to be more passive.

For those couples who stick to traditional gender roles, it will fall to BH's to take the active role regardless of how much remorse is felt, and this will lead to serious doubts, resentment, and a lack of self respect for staying. All of these issues are present in any case, but they will be much more severe in the case of a passively remorseful WS, and fatal with an unremorseful WS.

Merely staying together != Reconciliation

 R is not easy for anyone

Can anyone even agree what "R" is? I've seen people that "R" is the last thing I'd describe their relationship as being in, at least from what they post. WS's still lying, contacting, rebelling, detaching, lashing. I've also seen the exact opposite. BS's posting how they can't get past, angry, lashing, punishing, hoop hanging. There is a 4 page post over the word "broken", a several page post of "selfish and entitled", several on "mistake". Everyone with different opinions.

WS's that post here get different responses. Don't react when they say something. React or they'll think you're uncaring. Show your hurt. Don't show your hurt. Tell your why.  You're broken? That's an excuse. Why don't they just say selfish and entitled?  Selfish and entitled?!? What bullshit. That's just an excuse. Why don't they dig? What, FOO issues?!?! Oh boo fucking hoo. I have em. I didn't cheat. That's just an excuse.

Fuck, really??!?! Bottom line is, some will hang on because of their own issues and rage against that as well. What does your body and mind tell you to do when someone hurts and destroys you? Get the fuck away, right? Those that want to reconcile, I would think, have to get through that as well...fighting against yourself.

There is a post on infidelity by a Rabbi Shmuley about infidelity. How diminishing , devaluing, erasing from existence can cause people to lash out, physically hurt or kill because of how brutal and what a horrible thing to do to someone. Thing is, infidelity isn't the only time that's done. Quite a few marriages have those cruel descriptives long before, or even if cheating isn't a part of them. If it's not an excuse for cheating it sure the fuck ain't one for killing someone that does.

He lost me with his Broken American Male article where he blames society for men attacking hotel maids and claims it's society's worship of money and men doing all they can to earn money leaving no time to develop their humanity thus viewing women as commodities. It's no wonder they seek prostitutes and pick women that love money too. Oh, also why they attack hotel maids. Seriously? Yeah, because they're not entitled assholes that love the competition and feed off it. It's society, the companies they work for. Please!!!

He also sites sky high male violence and infidelity. Very convincing, unless you need facts, which actually show crime has decreased and women are showing the rise in infidelity numbers, not men, but why ruin it with those pesky little details.

My ex wanted to reconcile. My ex felt he owned me. My ex is a man. I wanted out. Not leaving for someone else. Not emotionally attached to the affair partner. I had detached. Completely. I didn't need him to validate me or my existence. He had long ago made it quite clear how truly irrelevant I was to him and my inconvenient illness was such a drag...what with all the throwing up from the meds. Here's your bag make sure you clean it up. Nice little parting foot nudge as he stepped over me. Poor man gets queasy from puke, dontcha know.

Phew. Genders? I'm thinking all this shit, reactions, is individual. Just like the horrible choices (ALL of them) we make in life. There isn't a "they" as much as some would like to believe.

t/j UO that was truly, a beautiful, no bullshit, honest blast to read. end t/j

Wishing: The question to ask is, "What does your BH think and believe? How does he think and feel regarding himself staying and reconciling with you?"

And What do you believe about yourself?

The rest of the world can go hang.

UO as usual you are right on the money.

It has nothing to do with genders as it does with individuals.

BH here. I have read that more men than women choose to leave. I don't believe you can make gender-based generalizations about the reasons why. I haven't stayed because I am "too weak to leave or too committed to the idea of saving a marriage at any cost." I stayed because I love my wife & children. I stayed because I know that we are all capable of bad behavior. I stayed because the A did not happen in a vacuum. I stayed because I would not deny the person I have loved more than any other in the world an opportunity to redeem herself.