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This....

She quickly got angry and started siting issues that were bad in out marriage which we have worked thru in threapy.

...is called blameshifting. It is a sign of a WS who is NOT remorseful. She reacts to the pain she caused you with anger. Let me say that again.

She is NOT remorseful.

Her shutting down is about her feelings and not wanting to feel guilt or shame.

She is NOT owning her actions.

She is NOT owning her decision to have the A.

She expects you to "forgive" her which apparently means forgetting about it completely and never bringing it up again.

At a minimum this needs to be brought up in MC.

My recommendation is a bit more severe. I'd pack up my stuff (or her stuff if your L agrees) and without comment give/leave her a letter explaining all of these issues. That she is not supporting your healing from HER actions. That you will work on pre-A issues in the M, but the A is 100% her decision and if she can't own that then you can't R. Basically she needs to get over herself and face the consequences (your hurt) and do something really tough for her. Be patient and understanding through your healing.

brandon 808

thank you for your comments and guidance.

What you say is exactly what all the books i have read state.

unfortunately, WW wont read any books. I gave her several to read and she refused and said she doesn need them and can figure this out all by herself or with the help of IC and CC

But everythome she goes to Ic .she comes home and complains counselor beat her up...its like a kid sulking...a self induced pity party which i had vbe witness and stand down and not get any help from her for my needs

this is killing me inside.

i have ben patient.....given her unconditional patience and she is still locked up like a bank vault

I think you are being waaay to nice.

You can't "nice" her out of the fog.

By your own admission, you both agreed to "put this behind you" on the cruise. She is thinking "great! I can forget all about it."

Then you backtrack and want to talk about it.

You can't lead a horse to water, but you can't make her drink.

I suggest you 180. I also think you should let her know the OM threw her under the bus, if that is the case. Good chance she feels like she got away with everything, and that she got to choose you over OM...but that she could still have him if she wanted him...leaves her feeling high and mighty...like everybody wants her...in reality, what she did was dirty and mean. I think she needs a little shaking up.

MP

hurts,

you have a few ways you have presented that you can go about this;

rugsweep the entire thing, which will make your wife happy and keep your daughter healthy with her eating disorder, but makes you miserable, and also you risk your wife doing this again.

you stand up for what you want, tell your wife you won't tolerate this and she has to start working on this with you or your done, you risk your daughter backsliding on her eating disorder, but you have stood up for what you want your life to look like, and you don't risk your wife doing this to you again.

You continue to let your wife control this and every situation in your and your daughters life and nothing changes, your daughter stays exactly the way she is, you stay miserable, continuing to hope that she is going to change is some way, and she never does. And this drama goes on for years.

You can 180 her, start getting on with your life, build a life for you, right under her nose, learn what that feels like, start showing your daughter that you are separating yourself emotionally from your wife so it is not traumatic if you D her. If your wife continues to not make changes, then move forward with D.

What do you want? Your life is really in your hands, not hers. If you are sick of what she is doing, then change what is happening. She has had control of your life for way to long.

Hey hurtssobad:

I agree with what Brandon and Mrs. Panda said. It's obvious that what you have been doing is not working. SO it is time to step it up and show the real consequences of her behavior.

I was surprised to read that your daughter has an eating disorder. We have been dealing with that as well.

I have posted about that is the Long Term Affairs forum - do you ever go there?

More and more medical professionals are seeing eating disorders as hereditary, as a function of both genetics and modeling coping skill behavior.

My WW had bulemia and anorexia during high school and into college. She never got any treatment nor any therapy for the behavior and underlying issues. Her parents blew it off I think.

With my daughter's therapy, my WW has been immersed in her own treatment. It has been very traumatizing for her. When we attend all these sessions, you hear about underlying anxiety and depression for which the person seeks some relief. For my WW, the affair was another form of bulemia, the sick secret that no one knew, the self loathing, the gross behavior, the endorphins when getting a call or text, etc.

At the hospital, they have emphasized that for an eating disorder what started out as a choice quickly was no longer a choice but an addiction or compulsion.

I mention all this because I am starting to see my WW's LTA as kind of two phases: first, the "Not Just Friends" book's metaphor of walls and windows and thinking that a soul mate had been found with unicorns and rainbows; second, once it was apparent (maybe 1/3 of the way through) that there was nothing there, it was just the addiction phase. She became dependent on getting a text or phone call to "feel better." It was a long distance deal.

What was this "feeling better" ? It was anxiety relief. To deal with her anxiety, she would mentally load it all up together and tell herself that it would all go away when she heard from MOM. Kind of like taking out the garbage every week.

This is what she now has learned. During the A, she thought the anxiety relief was based on something that the OM had. In fact, it was all just how things worked in her own head.

So, for you, I tell you this as a way to have some compassion for someone as screwed up as your WW (like mine).

Perhaps your WW has a latent eating disorder that will direct IC to underlying issues....

Maybe it is possible in your WW's IC to stop looking at the A as well as a the M, and dig deeper.

For my WW, I was not a good husband and kind of ditched her in a way for a while pre-A. It was her anxiety and her unhappiness with the M that drove me away. I have to own the fact that I did not man up and reach out to her in compassion, but instead a tone of dissatisfaction. She was unhappy for her own reasons: for one, neither the M nor me could not "cure" her.

Good luck and be strong, calm, compassionate, loving, serene,and hopeful. I try for that every day.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 11:23 AM, December 11th (Tuesday)]

here is a quick summary and update for all

i am 9 mos from d-day and 7 months from confrontation day with WW.

it took months for her to NC her paramour.

i did contact his wife and we kept talking to each other and knew every move both f them made until my WW ended everything mid june 6 mos ago

were in ic and mc.... during ic, counselor tells me my wife is very selfish . controlling and stubborn...a lethal combination. counselor and my wife continue to tell me to be patient which i have been..but its getting very old

she tells me she is thankful for the "gift" i gave her but doesnt act it other than verbal statements..

we went on a 2 week cruise in october for our 25th (Italy) and finally she allowed us to make love.

but its been very slow

things have been very slow since ,,,1x week maybe and i have to ask

as i said,

we broke the ice in making love in the cruise.

Then about 1X a week since. But my wife is like a dead corpse when we make love.

she will not let me touch her her breasts, i have to follow her specific insturctions. She will not take off her clothes...always has a tee shirt on.

when i kiss her good night she gives me a peck..and freezes up...very quick each night to get her mouth-guard in place also

she allows me to cuddle with her but will never cuddle me..with her arms around me...or over my side ..says she likes sleeping on her right side and left side is uncomfortable

so i cant initiate anytyhing without her permission that she has decided we will make love that night

our signal is to ask the other "would you like some action?" ...after the cruise she never agreed on my first asking..but would say..i am sorry...tomorrow will be better for me... and it usually happend the next night unless she told me she was tired again

so thats how it would happen

she never has initiated asking me or physically signalling me

now just last week...i asked and was told "i am tired...and i feel so bad that everytime you ask i say no..so please dont ask me anymore so i dont feel bad and ill let you know when i am in the mood"

i told her immediately, "you do not have the right to ask me not to speak or ask you a question when i am in the mood to make love. This request of yours is passive aggressive to handcuff me into not speaking. i told you that you have taken much away from me and when you start taking away my dignity thats were you draw the line

she backed off immediately but still no making love that night...

no makeing love for 4 more nights now and i still ask every night

she is always tired...

i feel soo unrequitted

i have been working my butt off on the relationship and gave her a wonderful

"gift" of a second chance and keeping her infidelity a total secret... and a second chance for "us"

she is a control freak..and openly admits this...and i tell her she wont control me

i need to talk to her...but when i do she gets angry...she cant listen properly..in being non confrontational, non judgemental. She cant listen and say to herself "its not about me"....she hasnt learned to emphasize with what i see thru my eyes

she has refused to read any books i have given her and says she knows all this...which she doesnt...the counselor tried to get thru to her and she comes home angry that she was "beat up"

at times when she is angry when wer talking, she brings up pre "A" mariatal issues...which i have addressed in CC and taken responsibllity for my portion of the pre-"A" marital issues...but she never has addressed her portion of pre"A" issues....wants to put everything into the past...so we can move forward....and bury all the past

any ideas ???

thank you also...for everyone at SI that has helped me...you are all sooo supportive...i doint know how can i ever thank you ....

i feel like i am dying in the inside slowly

[This message edited by hurtsobadinside at 11:18 AM, December 20th (Thursday)]

What are your requirements? What consequences are you willing to invoke?

I know you're hurting, and there's no quick fix, but if you make some choices (difficult ones), I think you'll feel a lot better.

Define your requirements and consequencs for R. Common - maybe even universal - reqs are NC, IC, MC, transparency, honesty. Non-universal reqs include sex, the WS had to woo the BS, the WS has to set up date nights, etc.

If you have requirments and consequences, it's easy to monitor progress and adjust as you go along. For reqs to work, however, you've got to invoke the consequences when a requirement isn't met.

Reqs for R result from de facto negotiation - if the WS isn't willing to meet a req, R doesn't happen.

YOU name YOUR reqs. Requiring sex seems like a no-brainer, for example, and lots of people would tell you to demand it if you want it and split if your W won't agree. You may be telling that to yourself.

But it's not as simple as it seems - if you think abstinence now will lead to great quantities of great sex with the woman you love in the foreseeable future, it could make sense to leave sex off the list of requirements now. Really, your reqs are up to you.

I encourage you to decide what you want and need. Define your requirements. Talk them out with your W in MC. If she agrees, monitor and adjust. If she doesn't, split.

Right now, it sounds like no one is totally in your corner. You need to stop protecting your W and start protecting yourself.

IMO you wife is still mourning the loss of a six year affair. Also, simply being a woman does not mean that you are open with your feelings. We all think men are the ones to bottle up feelings, and not women, but I can tell you my WW, by nature, has no skills whatsoever in intimacy. She is a rugsweeper, and closes up when anything intimate is brought up...it was her upbringing, and all her family is the same. you are lucky...you are in counceling, so you are on the right path with a mediator. It does take time though.

PS. Be on the lookout for a rekindling of the affair.

It sounds to me she still believes she is in control. Is she?

This is devious, but had some success: after a year of no sex (about 7 months after DDay), I asked WW if I could start having sex with other people. The next day we had sex.

About 6 months after DDay, false R and broken NC, I told both WW and OM that They belong together and I would grant divorce if that is what they want. Two days later, their year-long game was over and NC stuck.

Consequences matter. If she is selfish, and doesn't understand she is losing you, she won't make any effort to keep you.

fWW here. I read your post - then went back and read the dates. The way in which you are being treated is unacceptable IMO. I believe there are a few things you could do to move forwards, none of which are easy.

1) Decide if you still wish to offer this woman the gift of R. This is a precious gift and so far she appears to have squandered it.

2) If you still wish to continue to R you need to set requirements, and consequences of them being breched. This is a list of things you NEED and MUST HAVE for R to go ahead. These are not things for you to use to control or use over your WW. They are things that you need from her to help you heal and to rebuild your relationship.

For example: my BH presented his list to me and we discussed them. Things I had a problem with, he explained why he had put them on the list and what they meant for him. If I didn't agree the consequence was he would leave and divorce me. Some things were obvious: NC with the OM and any friend/business partners or colleagues or acquaintances of his. Complete transparency. Answer questions about the A whenever and where ever he felt it necessary to ask me. Some I struggled with: read and post on SI daily. At the beginning this was very artificial and forced for me, but I have learnt so much here, it has been crucial to my growth.

The list also had consequences attached to it. If I didn't post on SI his consequence was to raise this in our MC session and ask me to explain why I wouldn't do it; and why he needed this so much. If still I refused then next consequence was divorce. For other requirements the consequence of their breach was divorce, e.g. breaking NC again.

This gave him some focus and control to his life. I'd taken all that away and this stabilised him until I started to give him what he needed voluntarily.

3)Present her with this list, may be having spoken to your IC and ideally your MC too. TBH I'd be getting a new MC is he/she is still suggesting after 9 months since dday you need to be patient with her... I think you've been plenty patient enough.

Present this list somewhere neutral, my BH gave me mine in a local pub. No room to make a scene, so safe for him.

4) Don't tolerate any shutdowns or temper tantrums about this. Do not compromise your needs. If she agrees to your requirements then start from there. If she does not, then you are left with no choice but to move to....

5) File for divorce. I don't often say this, and certainly do not say it lightly. It sounds to me like a very one-sided situation where your WW is still controlling information. That physical shaking and shut down thing...I only felt like that and did that when I thought I was about to get busted for more information I was withholding.

I agree with Brandon - there is no remorse here. You cannot R like this.

It doesn't matter what issues your M had and whether these are resolved, she cannot use these to hide behind. You M is your M, her A is all on her. Sounds like she is still blame shifting and minimising. By refusing to read anything you are stuck with someone who cannot grow, cannot change nor learn what they have done to you and your M, nor can she learn about herself to understand why she did this.

She needs to understand hiding is not an option. Her A does not just go away, it cannot and must not be buried. Given any chance your WW will rug sweep, don't let this happen, for your sake.

I am afraid she will not respond to your requirements, but you should try starting here.

If she doesn't accept these you seriously should consider starting divorce proceedings. You need to prioritise you now, as she is not. Protect yourself and start to heal yourself. Make it clear you would like to heal alongside her, but you cannot make her heal, only she can choose that path. She must choose it for her.

As ever, Mrs Panda is spot on; you cannot "nice" her back to you. Time for the hardest choices of all. I feel for you. ((HSBI))