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It sounds like she is coming from a place of fear. Fear of opening up, fear of making the hard decisions about your M., fear of what might happen. With you being out of the house she doesn't have to go there yet. She has to take those walls down for R to move forward. It sounds like you have a pretty good view on her, I hope she is able to give you what you need

You spent a lot of time focusing on the positive, which is a good thing, make no mistake. Her saying she takes responsibility for her actions and "part" in the "M issues" is nice.

Her leaving her job is a good step forward too.

All that stuff, however, really doesn't add up to much when she refuses to walk the walk. You have no idea why she quit her job. She told you one thing but she has established herself as a liar.

Here are things that are too broken to spin positively enough:

and her greatest fear is that we get back together and either I go back to my unhealthy ways or she doesn’t build the tools necessary to better cope and communicate with me ultimately leading to hurting me and the girls again.

Her greatest fear is about you failing again, with a toss in of her not communicating well. Which is really just a nice way of saying she isn't properly telling you that you suck in a way you understand.

You were not the cause of her cheating, she was the one who chose to run from that. You could be naked on your roof and hooting like a monkey jacking off into a banana and what her taking responsibility for her A means is understanding your actions have no control over her. She can leave. She can help you. Her choice to fuck someone else is not owned by saying so, and then telling you she's afraid you will suck again in her eyes. That's blameshifting.

We all need to work on our shit. No argument there. If her biggest fear is your failures rather than hers, she isn't working on herself. She's still leaving it on you.

But she has a remarkable ability to compartmentalize her reality to allow her to cope with the demands of her life without constantly breaking down into tears at work, in front of our kids, friends, etc… This apparently has been one of her coping skills throughout our marriage which has helped explain why we saw the marriage very differently – she always seemed so happy with what I considered ‘normal’ marital issues but deep down she felt unloved. But it is this very skill that makes things so hard for me – I only get a glimpse into how she feels and thinks on very rare occasions. And she struggles with opening up to me.

This isn't a skill. It's an unhealthy coping mechanism called dissociation. Yes, being able to do your job under stress is a good skill. We all succeed at that to varying degrees. Closing off parts of your life in order to pursue others, however, leads to a distorted view of reality.

Bear in mind that your views and hers may be different not because you had a lower bar for happy (which is a fucking virtue you should hold on to for dear life IMO) but just might be her exaggerating little things to the point of massive issues in order to justify her own actions. Waywards often rewrite history to better fit their own agenda, consciously or subconsciously, demonize the BS in order to feel justified and allay feelings of guilt and shame, and do something particularly cruel called Gaslighting, which involves breaking down the sanity of a BS by making them question their own perception of reality.

There is a very common theme to affairs, and while it's not impossible that your wife is a strong willed woman struggling with your inadequacies as a husband and father and fell prey to a perfect storm in the night, the trillions of other women who cheat and think the same thing could all get together and write a trillion different books with the same story.

– whereas she seems unable to open up to me or take the same risks at this point.

Consider that she is the one who lied to and cheated on you. She is not required to reconcile with you, not for any reason sensible or otherwise, but this isn't about being afraid to take risks. It's about being unwilling to relinquish control of the situation.

What did you do that hurt her so badly? I see that she felt unloved. Great. Everyone does sometimes. Since you were happy in your marriage, I assume that means happy to see her? Happy to have sex with her? You liked buying her things sometimes to see her smile? It wasn't the way she wanted or 'needed' though. She would drop hints, even sometimes say it outright even though you didn't understand? So over time distance developed and she was lonely and bitter and angry.

Guess what. That's a bullshit reason to be fucking somebody else because she's afraid of being hurt again. A reason for being afraid to be hurt again is if you were abusive in some way. If you are or have been beating her then you need to get to some serious counseling, and she needs to talk to a specialist. If you've been screaming at her or calling her names then that's something to be afraid of being hurt again. These are things that are beyond her control and legitimately frightening.

That you don't pay her the attention she wants in the way she wants because by her own admission she has communication issues? Not the same risk. Not in the same taxa.

If she’d be open to showing me her text messages, phone records, emails, etc. for a temporary time, I feel it would help me heal and be more effective at making the core changes but for now she refuses to open up to me partly because I’ve ‘controlled’ her our entire marriage and partly because it would mean opening back up to me which is something she isn’t ready to do not knowing if she wants to save the marriage. She feels that the affair only gives me more ‘ammo’ for being able to control her and shut her down…something she refuses to go back to.

There's nothing controlling about giving your spouse all access.

Do you want to hide things from her? Why? Are you ashamed of the monster porn in that hidden folder in C:\\Documentz\Monstarpr0n? Don't be. Tell her about it, be embarrassed, delete it if she doesn't want it there.

Or are you not hiding anything from her? I'm guessing not. It's because people with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

She had her own job, now she has her own place. That doesn't sound like she's been controlled. It sounds like you wanted access to all of her and she wanted you out so she could keep some "privacy."

You have a good reason to not trust her. That's not ammo, it's just plain common sense.

Do not go into reconciliation on anything but a strong foundation. That means all in from you, but it also means not compromising *any* boundaries.

My FWH had the exit affair. I had given him the move out day so he f***** OW the weekend he should ave moved out, it started the Sunday before. He still begged pleaded cried and did whatever it took for me to allow him home.

Reasons she DIDN'T hasve an affair

She didn't have an affair because she felt unloved

She didn't have an affair because she was so unhappy

She didn't have an affair because you didn't meet her requirements for marriage

she didn't have an affair because there are "difficulties in both of you you both need to work through"

She didn't have an affair because it was a tuesday

She didn't have an affair because she has a nut allergy and your dick happens to taste of almonds.

I love this. In not big on 2x4s but this is perfect. Affairs are not an opps. They can claim and we can accept whatever accuses tree are, but the bottom line, our spouses were disrespected and mean. They need to accept their responsibility, no excuses. We need to figure out if its enough. If she's blaming you, I would think hard about what you want to do.

LonelyHusband, YOU ARE AWESOME.

And spot on.

I wish so someone would post about the BS Fog in the healing library!!

I call bullshit on 'exit affair'. They exit the marriage with one foot prior to the A - hell some of us married spouses who only ever had one foot in the marriage.

Sometimes they dip their toes back into their marriage after an A. This is called cake eating.

Your marriage issues are TOTALLY separate to her cheating. Far better and perfect wives and husbands than you or I have still been betrayed.

monster was a SHIT husband for 5 years and I never once cheated. Never once even went near that slippery slope. Not for lack of opportunity - I shut down any man that became even too friendly with me. I stopped it and walked away the second I noticed even the remotest interest on their part. There was never any interest on my side not because I had such a good husband but because I am not a cheater.

monster also tried to put conditions on me and on my healing. He wasn't going to be 'punished' forever by my pain.

He deserved to get the love he needed ie: someone new who believed in and help him maimtain his false self image;

He just couldn't get it from me post A ie: he could never be my KISA.

He had tarnished himself ie: I saw who he really was.

He couldn't stand not being trusted/believed implicitly ie: didn't like the consequences of his actions. He was still desperate to hold onto the self image.

This is not remorse, it's blame shifting with a side of gaslighting.

This is why False R only lasted 3m.

She is giving YOU a chance? WTF? You are the prize friend, not her.

I know you love her and I know you're trying to save your marriage but the cost is too high and your odds are rubbish at this stage. It is a terrible punt you are making.

You cannot R with someone who still has their head up their arse.

Start fighting for you. You may even finally see her fighting for you. Maybe not if she is not remorseful.

Right now she is behaving like a BS and you like a WS.

You don't see it now but you will one day. You will certainly know it when she crosses a line again and blames you again.

Keep reading, keep posting. Take on board what feels right to you and read the rest but leave it until you're ready. We all do this in our own time. We all ignore the wise words of those who see the giant red flags we blind ourselves to.

All in your own time.

(I guess this thread resonates for me....) There are a number of things that go with R:

1) NC

2) Transparency - BS knows where WS is and with whom at virtually all times

3) Honesty - WS answers questions when they're asked

4) IC for WS

5) MC

6) IC for BS

7) In addition, WS supports BS by listening non-defensively, accepting BS's venting, expressing love, apologizing as appropriate, etc., etc., etc.

To me, honesty is key. It doesn' look like you're not getting that. Have you set that as a requirement for R?

I can see waiting for her to be ready to be honest, but I'd push. I'd probably want a joint session with her IC to communicate how important that is to your and to your M and to seek help accelerating your W's willingness to open up.

You say you don't ask for passwords because you know what her answer will be. Actually, you don't know unless you ask - you can't read her mind. If you want her to be transparent, you need to make that clear.

You want your W to be open with you? Show her how by being open with her - ask for what you want.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:53 PM, November 17th (Saturday)]

I haven't checked too thoroughly, but most replies have come to you from BSs. Most seem to offer the same advice to you. I thought it may be useful to offer my own thoughts from the WS side of the fence. (Apologies to those WSs who may have posted here already...)

I gravitate towards Sisoon’s interpretation and recognize we both have a great deal to work on.

I'm sure you do, IMHO it's the post that paints a favourable light for your WS and how you hope to see her.

Quite honestly, I think you're being gas lighted and bullshitted. If I could have played my BS like this I would have. Honestly I would.

Imagine a WS that would like to avoid dealing with getting to the why's of their A and do all the really shitty nasty hard work to support the BS.

Imagine a WS who once found out by the BS, would like to get thier BS to focus on the shitty parts of their M, neatly sidelining the BS from drilling the WS on the A details.

Imagine a WS who'd like to get the BS to rugsweep the A itself and emphasise the problems in the marriage that preceeded the A which neatly sidetracks the A itself.

Imagine that. Who'd have thought such a WS could exist?

There are some awesome WSs from the start. Those who are immediately horrified and remorseful. Those people I admire beyond limit. Those were damaged, those made all the awful decisions every WS did, but they confessed (usually), or when found out were immediately aware of their own issues and stepped up to the mark. I was NOT one of those WSs.

I was one who lied and cheated. One who trickle truthed and avoided stepping up to the mark. I was one who fought vehemently that idea that "I" was the one with the issues; fought that idea that "I" was broken and damaged. I was the kind of WS who subscribed to the concept that you are who you are and that's that. You can't change the fundamentals of your behaviour or beliefs. What a crock of shit. I would have rug swept. I tried real hard to do so. The ONLY thing that stopped me doing this was my BS. He was having NONE of it. (Incidentally, my BS is LonelyHusband).

In the first few days and weeks he was shocked so badly that he did let me get away with some of this stuff. But very fast he wised up and slammed me down (metaphorically speaking). I hated it. Every second. I felt caged and trapped. This wasn't the marriage I signed up for, being checked up on, showing him every message, email, phone call. Being trailed and tracked. Being recorded in my own house with a VAR. This wasn't right surely? This was being in prison, not a marriage. He was surely unhealthy by doing this stuff.

This is the harsh reality of an unremorseful WS. Thinking about me, me, me. HE must be wrong to trap ME like this. HE has trust issues, and that's not fair to ME. HE wants to reconcile but won't believe ME, HE's got to change this for ME to be able to R. Sound at all familiar? Deep down I think you know there's something way off in your WS's attitude...

how were you able to move forward with your life since you didn’t have the unconditional love/support from your WS such as them doing the ‘typical stuff’ to help you recover from the affair or having the assurance they love you / want the M to survive?

Yes I agree with you and others here about needing to fix the M issues. Too right you do. You both do. However, there's a BUT here and a HUGE BUT. You have to deal with the A too. This is the bit your WS seems to be completely missing. She seems to be doing just enough for you to stay, just enough for you to believe the M is worth fighting for, and just enough for you to see the woman you want to see, the one you thought you married and the one you think you're still married too. I'm familiar with this "just enough" concept. I tried that too. It doesn't work if you as the BS start to demand more.

Just enough ISN'T enough.

We are trying to work through things but, unlike with other reconciliations I've read about, my WW is not only dealing with the shame and disgust of what she did but also trying to determine if she really thinks she can be happy in the M.

Why is you think your R is unlike any others? I thought like she is. At the start I thought that having an A, being attracted to someone else and letting myself "grow close" to someone else was a clear sign that I wasn't happy in my M and therefore I wasn't with the right person. Again, crock of shit. We all find other people attractive. There are all sorts of people we meet that we "could" be in a relationship with, that we with have a "spark with" or that we just "click with". There's not ONE person for someone. That'a a ridiculous romaticised "hollywood" notion that excuses people from facing up to the reality of long term relationships and the work we have to put into them to stay happy and ensure we provide for our partners needs.

I didn't know if I could be happy in my M when I started R; but I did know I'd been happy with my BS before. I started R for completely selfish reasons. I wanted to feel that if our M failed at least I'd tried and that would give me some way of being able to hold my head up still. I didn't start R because I thought it'd work, actually I thought it'd probably fail. But at least I could tell myself I'd done the "right thing". Whatever. Ever heard the phrase "Fake it, til you make it"? Often BS's tell each other this is how they make it through each day early in R; but guess what it works both ways; she has to fake it until she makes it too.

She has verbally confronted me in conversation and said ‘I take full responsibility for the A and my part with the issues in our M’ (although at the time I didn’t ask her for specifics or what she was working on to change)

She is very remorseful and deals with ‘deep devastating pain’ and her greatest fear is that we get back together and either I go back to my unhealthy ways or she doesn’t build the tools necessary to better cope and communicate with me ultimately leading to hurting me and the girls again.

Bleurgh. I can't read this without getting angry. She hasn't taken on the A - she should be giving the specifics up to you and telling you what she's changing. Damn right she should deal with YOUR pain, and hers; she caused it. ALL of it. Her fears? Seriously? YOU building coping tools blah blah blah - YOU didn't rip you M apart, SHE DID. YOU didnt hurt your children and rip their parents and their stability apart, SHE DID. She took what she wanted and stamped all over your love. And the worst bit it she's still calling the shots. Dude, I beyond angry on your behalf. You didn't hurt your girls, SHE DID.

So let me get the gist of her A:

She confirmed it was an ONS at a company happy hour after drinks with a co-worker that she had grown very ‘close’ to.

So she's had an EA for you don't know for how long and in what depth, with someone at work, but you don't know who or whether you've met them or entertained them in your house, bought them drinks socially, been nice to them while they've been trying to fuck your wife; and then she claims it was a ONS? She MAY have only had sex on one night, but you don't really know if this is the case. I wouldn't term this a ONS, she had an EA turned PA, just like me (only I didn't actually get beyond kissing).

Honestly, I'm amazed you haven't gone completely fricking batty without information. You have every right to hear everything and anything you need to. I don't know a single BS on here that wouldn't agree that a timeline/full disclosure is INTEGRAL and IMPERATIVE to their healing.

I've been working very hard on myself to change my unhealthy ways but I’m also dealing with the difficult task of stabilizing my life after learning of the A and her true feelings about our 20yr marriage.

No shit Sherlock. You can't POSSIBLY stabilise without disclosure. She's bad about sharing feelings, before and now; she's not giving you transparency and not giving you a timeline or disclosure. You have no details or even basic knowledge. What IS she giving you? You are working on your unhealthly ways, for which I commend you. What is SHE doing for YOU? Not what is she doing for her?

I know I’ve had a huge issue trusting her and treating her like she’s going to cheat on me for 20yrs (this goes back to my childhood and is only exacerbated by some of her unhealthy ways) often reading her text messages, looking at her calendars and emails, and holding double-standards in an effort to control her opportunities. I now recognize my issues and want to get to a point in my life where I am able to trust another individual without the constant negative-thinking. To make this kind of change without the weight of an affair is extremely difficult but add in the instability brought by the affair and it feels nearly impossible. If she’d be open to showing me her text messages, phone records, emails, etc. for a temporary time, I feel it would help me heal and be more effective at making the core changes but for now she refuses to open up to me partly because I’ve ‘controlled’ her our entire marriage and partly because it would mean opening back up to me which is something she isn’t ready to do not knowing if she wants to save the marriage. She feels that the affair only gives me more ‘ammo’ for being able to control her and shut her down…something she refuses to go back to.

As for access to her texts, emails, etc...I haven't asked for them because I know what her answer would be and, more importantly, know if she did give me access it would serve to feed my unhealthy ways and only temporarily help me (there's never enough info to guarantee she won't hurt me again - I'd start to wonder if she has a secret email, is talking to him from her work desk phone, etc).

Well done you for admitting and addressing your own trust issues. BUT do NOT fall into the trap that this means it's ok for her to have had an A and not do everything a WS MUST do to to help their BS. She's in the ultimate unremorseful WS place. Freedom to still go ahead do and say whatever she wants with whomever without you knowing. And if you need to check up on her or question her about what she's up do or where she is, you're being controlling, and using the A as "ammo". Bullshit.

She should WANT transparency to PROVE her dedication and recommitment to you, every time you panic, check up and find nothing she gets trust payments in the trust fund. I don't care what my BH checks, it ALL makes me more trustworthy theses days. It's telling that the only time I ever cared what he was checking was when I was hiding stuff.

I had a very possessive and paranoid, jealous BF years ago. Since learning about myself after my A, I realised how much of his behaviour I exacerbataed by my actions. I kept stuff from him, because he'd get angry etc etc. A vicious cycle. If only I'd have said "What is it that makes you worry? What do I do to exacerbate this and how can I help you feel safer?" I suspect our relationship would have been very different. I'm sure you have your own issues, but you're doing you bit from the sounds of things, yet I don't get that she's on board to help you by doing her part. Actually, what I read is that she's stuck in the "how it affects me/what am I going to get out of this" mentality. She's not remorseful. She's still focussing on her, not you.

We’ve had no intimacy / physical contact since that Dday but spend a good deal of time together with the kids (e.g. – dinners, sporting events, festivals)

Her choice or yours? Do the kids know anything's up? What kind of relationship do you now have - sounds like she is possible getting to feel loved and supported without having to give much up herself?

"I dont know if I will ever feel that you genuinely trust, respect, encourage, support me. I dont want to question it, I want to feel it when you touch me, I want to see it when you look at me or with the things you do, I want to hear it in your voice when you speak to me or even better, when you speak to someone about me. I want to feel that way with all of those ways to be loved. Sadly, I still question it. I honestly dont know how long it will take me to see you differently or what to look for. Part of me just wants to feel it and not try to figure it out, the other part of me realizes that I look at everything you do in a certain way because that is what i expect you to do and know the reasons behind it. Sometimes the past inhibits you from seeing the changes.

Selfishly - I want to redefine my non-negotiable's when it comes to what i want in a relationship and I am starting out with a really long list, but as I learn more about myself and some of the things in our relationship - I am revising that list.

At the end of it all - i dont know the answer."

I could believe any BS would have written this to their WS. NOT the other way round. Everyove deserves a healthy happy M at the end of the day. We both have rights and needs. We both need love and trust and support. But now? At this time in your relationship? If I'd written this to my BS he'd have laughed, then cried. It's just so sad that you should be able to say this stuff, not be sent it. It's ok for her to know what she wants in a M, but she has to help YOU first. She has to recognise that after dealing with all the A stuff, you still may find it a deal breaker, but once into R and you can cope with addressing her needs, then she gets to puts her points forwards. Right now it's all about YOU my friend. This is all arse-about-face.

For WSs, what helped you finally realize you wanted to stay in or end the M and, if you wanted to stay, what helped you open up to the chance that things might go back to the way they were and you being miserable again?

I partially answered this earlier (so long ago). I didn't know if I wanted to stay, but we had to start somewhere. I did know I didn't want to be the girl that bailed after 20 months of marriage without trying properly. I hated what I'd become and didn't want be who'd I'd become. I started MC, it was a condition or our R, as was me posting on SI.

The WS forum will NOT accept wayward thinking and spot bullshit a million miles away. I got some pretty tough love and was pulled up, post after post. I hate it. I hated them, I hated me and my M. But slowly, I realised that I was wrong and I could change. I started to make some changes and started to see why this stuff was being asked of me. My prison I created turned into a safe place for us both. I liked that changes I was making, I liked how it made me feel, but mostly I liked that what I was doing was bringing us closer. It's hard, and it's still hard at times. But not for me, for him. It's hard watching him break down from a trigger, it's hard having to relive the worst days of my life, when I remember I betrayed the person I vowed to love and protect for the rest of my life.

What opened me up to the chance that our M could be great was the results we got from the work we put in to our R. Just one small point here - things really won't and shouldn't go back to how they were. You need to let your old M go and rip it open, right down to the foundations to build it up bigger and better and stronger than before, otherwise all you're doing is laying new wall paper and the cracks are all just the same.

I have a suspicion I know the answer to this, but does anyone know about the A? People you socialise with, your family, her family? What support do you have outside of counselors? My BS outed the A well and truly, it just sounds like she has a lot of places it can still hide in and until the light pours in the A will thrive in secrecy (even if it's not truly active). Until she opens up to you completely, you can't really move forwards. Wish I could be more optimistic.

If I were you I'd make it a condition of R that she posts on SI...it's very productive and will call bullshit on warwardy shit that remains. It's the fastest way I know of helping WSs get their head out of their own arses. Try it and see how it goes?

Thanks again to everyone for continuing to read my extremely wordy posts and pushing me to see what is really going on! Especially OktoberMest and LonelyHusband...

A few other things to throw out that I realized I left out...nothing I would say would change the replies but something to point out nonetheless.

How I found out about the affair was when I noticed that when we updated our iOS on the iPhone the 'Find My iPhone' app was automatically loaded. I learned I could see where she was at any time and checking it became a procrastination tool and bit of an obsession. As long as she was where I expected her to be, no big deal. One time it looked like she was in a parking lot behind a building...I stormed out of my client site and by the time I got there I realized the GPS tracking was off when I found the site completely empty and the app still showed the phone was still there.

Regardless, I continued to check the app and actually saw the night she was physical with the OM - she had been inside a bar/restaurant up until 10pm when I noticed she was in the parking lot. She was there for about half an hour...I assumed she was hanging out with her friends or that the GPS was off. Turns out, that's when it was happening. 5 weeks later, I've still been checking the app when one morning (originally I only checked around lunch time but then started checking early mornings) - and found that she wasn't where she should have been. Instead, she was about 2 miles from our place in what appeared to be a residential area. Turns out, it was an abortion clinic!

That's where I confronted her...we had never been able to get prego naturally requiring IVF for both of our kids. Turns out, that time in the parking lot was all it took. She had gone there to look into the process of having an abortion as she considered her options. I can't imagine her emotions - getting prego for the first time in her life naturally, realizing it might not have been her this whole time that was infertile, and that she had to choose between getting caught or destroying another life. Apparently, she waited to see what would happen knowing from our 2nd child that she had developed a high risk for miscarriage in the 1st trimester. Turns out, she didn't go to the dr's office and waited to see what would happen - she lost it shortly thereafter. On a related note, she has said several times before the A that she wanted 3-4 kids (something I fought her on given the work/costs/risks the first two took) and even said the same thing in our last MC session when the counselor asked.

In the days following the DDay, I told almost all of our friends (pretty much all of them were my male friends and their wives) and anyone that would listen. I eventually told my family and she told hers because we separated shortly thereafter. One of the most horrible thoughts we both have is our daughters’ ever finding out what she did…when we learned my 16yr old nephew had been told, we both freaked out because his 8 yr old sister is our daughter’s best friend and if there was a chance she knew, we knew it was only a matter of time before our daughter found out. Luckily, my niece doesn’t know and neither does our daughters. We have told her that we are trying to determine if we still love each other – that adults change in life and sometimes the love for each other changes as well. Our kids seems to be doing great as we are both very engaged in their lives, split them one week at a time, spend about 50% of our time together as a ‘family’, and are very sensitive any changes in their behaviors.

As far as intimacy, there hasn’t been a single kiss, hand holding, massage, or touch since DDay at her choice. And as stated throughout my posts, focuses on all of the things that she hated in the marriage. She has continually stated that she doesn’t want to take our relationship to the next ‘level’ or let herself focus on the things she misses from our marriage because she is concerned she will lose focus on the changes we both need to make. She thinks, if we go back to being that close, and we haven’t truly addressed our personal and marital issues, that there is the real risk of having the M return to what it once was and her (or me this time) causing this unbelievable amount of pain and betrayal. As someone whose primary love language is ‘Physical Touch’ – you can imagine how much I am suffering. In addition, she has recently confided in me that she no longer feels ‘connected’ to me (mainly due to the stress from the affair) or sees me as someone she loves in such a way that she wants to be intimate with me because she still sees me as the person she has demonized / the person who made her so unhappy for so long.

--------

Fastforward.

We have completely depleted our small checking and savings accounts (we had only had joint accounts for the past 19yrs until the A when I split the accounts) and are living check-to-check. Which is unbelievable seeing as before the A, we were paying $3000 a month to pay down our credit card balances we had acquired throughout our lives…for once, we were paying down our credit, building our scores up, and ready to start enjoying the fruits of professional lives. Now we struggle to pay min balances, I racked up $15k on our credit cards to furnish my apt / pay for a family vacation / and other various activities or purchases. My credit score is now the worst I’ve ever seen and I’m now being turned down for new cards (separate from our joint accounts) due to all of the new activity and only minimum payments. Just another pressure to deal with…

Regarding our current efforts, our most recent conversation at the MC session took place about two weeks ago where she jumped at the chance to tell me more details about the A after I told her I wanted to finally have that discussion. After the MC session, I sent an email asking for more details last Friday (e.g. - did you love him, did you have an EA, were there other time, etc) but eventually changed my mind that I just didn't want those details, that the more details I had the more the images came back, and I just wanted to stop discussing the A and try to move forward. I know she would have answered the questions because we still met at her request last night but I told her I needed more time to consider her most recent reply which I included originally in this post.

We ended up spending the evening watching a movie on my couch for 2.5hrs – she sat on one end of the couch while I sat on the other. I asked her if she was ever going to move towards my end but she never answered or moved. With all of the post responses still wandering through my mind, when she went to leave, she moved in to give me a hug – I recoiled back. I had been thinking about what I would do if she tried to hug me…and I just went with it. It was so tough because it had only been about 3 months ago that we started hugging – our only physical contact – and sometimes very emotional / connecting holds. Of course I learned during this process my primary love language is ‘Physical Touch’ – so much more than just sex. The stuff I miss the absolute most are the touches – holding hands, massages, light touches on the arm / leg, etc… To refuse something that I had dreamed of for months was so difficult!

The second she walked out, I removed her from my linkedin list so that I wouldn’t consistently look to see who she was connecting with and then researching them for half an hour. Right after that extremely painful move, I burnt the debit and credit card numbers I wrote down one afternoon when I sneaked back into our condo when she left her wallet there – I had been checking her accounts as another way of looking into what she was really doing. I now have no way of checking up on her, no way of feeding my obsession about where she is or what she is doing, etc…

I saw her today at our daughter’s karate test and we had lunch with the kids and her sister who was in from out of town. I was in one of my ‘I can’t look at her’ moods struggling to understand what she had done, think through all of the posts, consider the feedback from my counselor (I texted her and asked for a brief phone call on Friday to discuss how I was feeling about my wife’s response), and deal with my physical attraction to her. With my daughter’s cousin doing a sleepover tonight, she’s asked if she can come over and visit tomorrow (she was very close with my nephew and niece). I told her she could so I know I’ll see her again tomorrow.

While my counselor wants me to focus on my own growth (e.g. – mirror time, journaling) and giving her more time (she has been in IC for about 3 months while I’ve been doing it for 9 months) and space while learning healthier ways of dealing with my anxieties, I can’t help but be very swayed by everyone’s posts and overall tone that I need to stand my ground and take back control. We have our next MC session Monday morning along with Thanksgiving coming up (I told her I wanted to go to her family’s lunch which she said she was good with; while she said she wasn’t sure she had the courage to go to my family’s more intimate dinner) – I just don’t know how to move forward at this point. Do I go the 180 way and, if so, do I tell her that I’m essentially going to stop focusing on us and instead focus on myself? I’ve told her that I will watch the girls over the next few weeks so that she can travel for her job – do I change my mind or just let her know that I won’t be able to support her job needs going forward? Or, do I take advantage of the upcoming MC session and layout my ‘demands’? If so, what should my demands be at this point? I keep looking for our MC counselor to tell her the same things that has been posted on this board, lay out a process that we need to follow to move forward, to call bullshit on her for everything she’s doing and saying…but instead, she seems fairly unbiased but at times leaning towards her side of reasoning and calling out my unhealthy ways (e.g. – setting expectations, seeing things black-and-white / my way or its wrong, sending text messages waiting for a response so that I ‘interpret’ her response since she is so closed off to me). Maybe I don’t truly understand her role in this process…I look at various programs thinking it must be the best way to go such as the affairrecovery.com weekend and tele-sessions. Good lord – I just want to walk away from all of this!

You sound so much like me.

I ran around for weeks. Buying books for my wife to read, finding websites, reading everything on them. researching how to recover from an affair, how to fix a broken marriage. Looking into weekend seminars, experts from all corners of the globe.

It was exhausting.

Eventually I realised SHE was the one that was supposed to be doing that. I realised that I could not fix my marriage on my own. It takes two people, and no matter how hard the BS works they cannot fix it without the WS being 100% back on board.

You are now in the realms of strategy. My strategy in this situation was simple, and I advise you to do the same. Prioritise.

Priority 1. Deatch from her so that her actions and behaviour impact you less and less and that you can move forwards.

Priority 2. do what you can to fix the marriage.

Some people will say ignore (2), but you and I both know you desperately want your marriage to work. so here's what I would do.

1. Read the 180 and execute it ruthlessly. RUTHLESSLY

2. Cancel the MC. It's not doing you any good whilst she is not accepting responsibility for her affair and continuing to play mind games with you. It's just torture.

If SHE wants to start reading, if SHE wants to arrange MC then encourage every positive step. But stop trying to drive into a mariage she is alienated from. My guess would be that YOU have organised everything so far. Stop it. Remember Priority 1. 180, detach, start healing without her. If she comes back into the picture you will be in a better place to deal with it, but right now you are tying up your happiness and life with being with her, and that has got to stop. The two are completely separate things.

180. Cancel the MC and tell her you've cancelled it because you've had enough of being the only person invested in the marriage. I bet heremotional armour starts to fall apart within a couple of weeks.

[This message edited by LonelyHusband at 6:00 AM, November 18th (Sunday)]

Dude, Your wife's affair was not your fault! Quit excusing her behavior. SHE needs to buck up and take responsibility for what she's done to you.

You are in a BS fog. You think that her affair was your fault. It gives you a feeling of some control over you life. If it's your fault, you can change and she won't cheat again or leave you. Sorry, but it's a false sense of control because it was never in your control.

Why didn't you cheat? Did you look at your wife all of those years and think, "Gee, if only she was a better wife, I'd be able to talk to her? I'm going to find someone I can talk to..." No, because an imperfect marriage is NOT what makes someone cheat. It is something broken inside the cheater. And you cannot fix it for her. Only she can fix it, and she doesn't even recognize yet that she's broken.

Do no attempt to R with this woman until she makes some drastic changes.

And, if she does, do not continue with your current MC -

In MCing, for a long time we’ve focused solely on what made her unhappy and our communication problems in the marriage while I’ve tried to recover and stabilize my life after learning of the affair and her true unhappiness.

You for sure need a new MC, one who knows how to deal with infidelity. Your current MC is feeding into your wife's delusional thinking.

Read around here some more. You cannot love your wife back. It just doesn't work that way.

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but please prepare yourself to find out this A was not just a ONS. You would not believe the number of BS who were led to believe the physical part of the affair only happened once...or not at all...only to find out later that it was much more than that.

Just prepare yourself for that...just in case.

[This message edited by coastofsomewhere at 9:21 AM, November 19th (Monday)]

I don't know how to answer this, not knowing the extent to how controlling you were in the marriage and how you belittled her during the marriage.

It seems you watched your GPS incessantly to track even before she had an affair and were jealous throughout the entire marriage? If so, then that's serious behavior she probably wanted to, in fact needed to escape, and that feeling of walking on eggshells throughout the marriage is likely what she doesn't want to go back to ever gain. She isn't who she was, either.

This also indicates that, until you get a lot of counseling as she said, you could have difficulty reconciling without returning to verbally abusive/controlling behavior because a BS status makes the most laid back and unquestioning person be paranoid and have anger, much less how it could trigger the old aspects of your personality that she's fearful of living with again.

So yes, I think if you're going to reconcile it would be YEARS down the road and not in the near future for her to trust that the belittling and control and gone for good. (I do not know if these problems you write about of yourself are or aren't exaggerated.)

You say physical touch is important to you. Ask yourself how you would handle daily life with her in the house?

Her worst nightmare would be to return to a marriage where she is belittled and control (emotional abuse in her view?), and then feel pressured to have to reward that treatment with sex. It seems the ONS meant little to her except to prove to herself she could attract someone else and not live alone to old age and death if she left the marriage? That's why it was a exit sex?

Bottom line: Because of resentment of past treatment and fear/anxiety that it would restart, she may not want or enjoy sex or physical touch consistently with you. It may make her feel used to have sex with you.

The changes you've made in yourself she won't believe except over time - beyond what they call a "jail house conversion" that's done long enough to reach a goal, then it's back to the old behavior.

So can you last through the time - not weeks but consistently for months and a year or more - without the sex and physical affection that are a priority for you being routine rather than she feels she "lapses" back into the sex, pulls away and stays separated, conflicted?

Because that's likely to be a dynamic in your relationship for the next year or two until she's comfortable things will be different.

I don't know how to answer this, not knowing the extent to how controlling you were or weren't in the marriage and how you belittled her during the marriage - as you've written of your behavior - and if this was infrequent or rare in the marriage, or if it was the entire dynamic of your relationship.

It seems you watched your GPS incessantly to track even before she had an affair and were jealous throughout the entire marriage? If so, then that's serious behavior she probably wanted to, in fact needed to escape, and that feeling of walking on eggshells throughout the marriage is likely what she doesn't want to go back to ever gain. She isn't who she was, either.

This also indicates that, until you get a lot of counseling as she said, you could have difficulty reconciling without returning to verbally abusive/controlling behavior because a BS status makes the most laid back and unquestioning person be paranoid and have anger, much less how it could trigger the old aspects of your personality that she's fearful of living with again.

So yes, I think if you're going to reconcile it would be YEARS down the road and not in the near future for her to trust that the belittling and control and gone for good. (I do not know if these problems you write about yourself are or aren't exaggerated.)

You say physical touch is important to you. Ask yourself how you would handle daily life with her in the house?

Her worst nightmare would be to return to a marriage where she is belittled and control (emotional abuse in her view?), and then feel pressured to have to reward that treatment with sex. It seems the ONS meant little to her except to prove to herself she could attract someone else and not live alone to old age and death if she left the marriage? That's why it was a exit sex?

Bottom line: Because of resentment of past treatment and fear/anxiety that it would restart, she may not want or enjoy sex or physical touch consistently with you. It may make her feel used to have sex with you.

The changes you've made in yourself she won't believe except over time - beyond what they call a "jail house conversion" that's done long enough to reach a goal, then it's back to the old behavior.

So can you last through the time - not weeks but consistently for months and a year or more - without the sex and physical affection that are a priority for you being routine rather than she feels she "lapses" back into the sex, pulls away and stays separated, conflicted?

Because that's likely to be a dynamic in your relationship for the next year or two until she's comfortable things will be different.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 9:14 AM, November 19th (Monday)]

Important question:

What were your abusive and controlling behaviors as stated by her? As stated by you? Not speculated, factual and/or stated.

What were your abusive and controlling behaviors as stated by her? As stated by you? Not speculated, factual and/or stated.

The major things that made her miserable in the relationship were:

 Lack of trust

 Controlling her through (what she is now calling ‘verbal abuse’)

o Double standards

o Talking Down

o Belittling

 Lack of respect

 Not supporting her

I don’t deny that a lot of these did exist in our marriage or that we had discussed each of these at various times throughout our 20yrs together. I never woke up wanting to ‘control’ her or treat her in such ways. I’ve been in counseling for 9 months now and learned about myself and how my mother’s drug and physical abuse, my weight issues early in my life, my parent’s divorce, and my father’s long hours at the office as a sole provider impacted me. I’ve never truly ‘loved myself’ – easily finding faults with myself. In order to deal with the stress of my life, I had to ‘grow-up’ quickly and grew to require evidence/facts to trust what I felt. To this day, I still struggle with religion and anything else that requires faith of any sort. In the end, I never felt like I was worthy of love and always assumed that this amazing woman I put on a pedestal, that any guy in his right mind would desire, would realize she could do better and eventually leave or cheat on me. I was always comparing myself to every man she worked with, knew, or had anything to do with – sizing myself up. Even if I didn’t know the guy, I assumed because I had only been sexual with my wife, that I was somehow less experienced in that area. It didn’t matter, I could always convince myself if there was a guy that she seemed to like – he had something to offer her I couldn’t compete with. (I know – a self-fulfilled prophecy!)

I also recognize (as does she now) that she has a number of unhealthy issues (some she’s called out and a few I think exist) she has to deal with including her need to make people like her (people-pleaser), taking on the stress of anyone that isn’t happy with her, being passive-aggressive and shutting down / giving up, needing others to make her feel respected / attractive / intelligent. She too grew up in a dysfunctional family with an absentee father (she hasn’t seen or heard from him in ~25yrs), was sexually abused as a very young child by her step-father, her mother choose to believe the step-father and my wife was raised by her strict grandparents, and she didn’t ‘develop’ until much later than most of her friends (~11th grade).

Looking back, anyone could have seen that the two of us were a bomb waiting to go off. I was a decisive individual who knew what I wanted and where I was going (college) and she was looking for a confident guy that could ‘rescue’ her from her family and circumstances. Since neither of us knew what a ‘healthy’ relationship looked like, we didn’t knew that how we were each handling our internal issues or how our immature communication skills were causing our marriage to slowly deteriorate from the start.

I am so much more aware of my actions, my attitudes, and how I communicate now than before and I truly want to change for myself because I don’t want to ever fall back into my old ways with whoever I end up with. That’s why I have given up so much in the last 9 months – agreeing to move out and give her space, going to counseling weekly, reading tons of self-help books/articles, joining support groups, saying and acting the ways I know I should while working to change myself so that it was natural, etc. But no matter what I have done or said, she still sees me the same way and doesn’t want to give me a chance to prove to her that I am changing or that simply because we get back together that I will forget or go back to the way I/we were. I struggled to deal with my insecurities in the marriage when she did say and show she loved me - addressing those same issues without her love has proven to be even tougher.

An example of an early incident

On Dday, she talked about how vulnerable she had been that night and how I never trusted or respected her throughout our marriage. She recalled a very early incident when we were young adults (18-19)…she worked at Sam’s Club at the front end. I felt that she was a little too flirtatious, often making physical contact (e.g. – hand on the shoulder, grabbing their arms while laughing) with guys she worked with and I had told her as much. She would explain that it was completely innocent and she didn’t mean anything by it but I would try and explain that she didn’t realize that for most guys, she was creating a ‘connection’ or an ‘opening’. I always saw her as ‘naive’ in this area.

One day, I went to her work and stood behind the first row of shelves and watched as she regularly flirted and touched co-workers. That evening, I picked her up and we drove to a spot where we would normally ‘make out’ (remember – we were still pretty young back then). Instead, I asked her if she had something to tell me and she said ‘no.’ When I asked if she had touched anyone, she still said ‘no.’ When I told her I had been at the Club and seen her – she admitted to it and tried again to explain that it meant nothing or that she didn’t even realize she had done it. I then blew up at the fact that she had lied to me and told her it was over with unless she promised to stop. Weeping uncontrollable, she agreed.

A couple years later, after we were married, I learned that she was talking to a former co-worker of ours that had moved to a new Club location via Sam’s internal ‘email’ system (this was before the days of the Internet and emails). She erased the messages before I could see them but assured me it was nothing but a friendship and she was afraid to tell me because I’d blow it up. A few years after that, I was looking through her purse or saw a letter looking out and when I opened it up, learned a co-worker had written her a ‘love note / poem.’ Again, she explained to me that it was nothing and that she had ‘taken care’ of the issue.

The love note was the last ‘incident’ that I can remember – that was about 12/13 years ago but throughout the rest of our marriage, my wife continued to be somewhat flirtatious and very engaging with the opposite sex – often most of her friends at work were guys. She had very few friends that were girls unless they were the wives or girlfriends of my friends. That’s not to say she didn’t have girlfriends…just that her nature tendencies seemed to befriend guys. At various times throughout the marriage, I would check her phone to see who she had talked to or check her text messages / calendar entries to find ‘proof’ she was telling the truth. And most of the time, I never found a single thing but I was never able to satisfy my need for proof that she truly loved me.

Much of my early insecurities manifested in other ways throughout our marriage such as:

 Double standards [I can go networking or travel because I had a profession that required it whereas she was in an industry job and she didn’t have to do those things to be successful or she wasn’t compensated as well and therefore it didn’t make sense for her to be away from the family; that I could go out and drink with my friends but I wasn’t comfortable with her doing it since I felt she (and most women) are more susceptible in situations involving alcohol and the opposite sex; it was ok for me to play golf for 4hrs but if she wanted to go shopping – I would rationalize that shopping wasn’t a hobby and that she shouldn’t go; and if she wanted to do any of these things – I would make her feel guilty for taking time away from the family]

 Lack of Respect, Talking Down / Belittling [trying to ‘convince’ her that new things she wanted to do were stupid or strange such as wanting to drink beer (instead of wine for example), watch horror flicks, or drink coffee – all things that she/we had never done to that point and that scared me she was changing/growing and making her more likely to find guys with more in common which only added to my insecurities; she felt I ‘talked down’ to her including at times in front of our daughters]

 Not supporting her [not wanting her to travel for her job; not wanting for her to work really late hours]

I know there is a ton here and I can see why she would have been miserable in the marriage. Like I said before, I never sought out to treat her like this. Much of what I said and did was out of love for her and the fear of losing her. I was so good at rationalizing my thoughts and behaviors – it wasn’t like I thought through my arguments in advance – these were just my attitudes and beliefs that I had grown up with. To add to the marital issues was her way of handling things such as telling ‘white lies’ or keeping things from me to keep me from getting upset or blowing things up, withholding how she really felt or the level of anger or pain in order to ‘keep the peace’, giving up on things she wanted or believed in.

And one final piece that muddied the water was that our primary love languages are different - while I’m Physical Touch and she is Acts/Services. As we learned after the A, this difference explained why she asked me if I ever loved her as I tried to explain to her I had put her on a pedestal. For me, we had a very active sex life and were very physically close for a couple that had been together for so long – something that I mistook for having a healthy-loving relationship. I recognized that there were things in the marriage that she didn’t like although I didn’t realize how important to her that they were as an expression of love. For me, there were plenty of things that I had complained about or needs that went less than fulfilled throughout the same timeframe that I just learned to live with – recognizing that no marriage is perfect.

I hated that she didn’t like to cook or when she did, she’d leave a mess behind. I couldn’t understand why she would leave her clothes out after she changed 3-4 times before work and then come home and move them from the edge of the bed to the floor. I didn’t feel like she initiated sex as much as I would have liked and wasn’t open to discussing how we could make it better/more enjoyable. I couldn’t understand why she didn’t think she was beautiful even though I told her all of the time – it was like she discounted anything I said that was positive because I was her husband and that is what I was supposed to do. I wanted her to want to do more with me like we did before the kids came along – couple’s vacation, tennis, golf, dates, etc.

At the end of the day, I don't know how much longer I can continue to invest in the relationship while feeling like I'm the only one working to make changes, while there is no intimacy, no verbal reassurance of love, and the consistent focus on all that was wrong in the marriage. She says she is changing - working on being more vocal about her feelings instead of shutting down and trying to see/hear me differently instead of assuming that I'm saying one thing but thinking like my old self. But without a relationship and without intimacy, it is nearly impossible to prove to each other that we are changing or find examples of things we can still work on. I'm opening myself back up to the chance of getting hurt again because I believe we can both change but she doesn't have the confidence that we can. I just don't know what to do...

On Dday, she talked about how vulnerable she had been that night and how I never trusted or respected her throughout our marriage. She recalled a very early incident when we were young adults (18-19)…she worked at Sam’s Club at the front end. I felt that she was a little too flirtatious, often making physical contact (e.g. – hand on the shoulder, grabbing their arms while laughing) with guys she worked with and I had told her as much. She would explain that it was completely innocent and she didn’t mean anything by it but I would try and explain that she didn’t realize that for most guys, she was creating a ‘connection’ or an ‘opening’. I always saw her as ‘naive’ in this area.

One day, I went to her work and stood behind the first row of shelves and watched as she regularly flirted and touched co-workers. That evening, I picked her up and we drove to a spot where we would normally ‘make out’ (remember – we were still pretty young back then). Instead, I asked her if she had something to tell me and she said ‘no.’ When I asked if she had touched anyone, she still said ‘no.’ When I told her I had been at the Club and seen her – she admitted to it and tried again to explain that it meant nothing or that she didn’t even realize she had done it. I then blew up at the fact that she had lied to me and told her it was over with unless she promised to stop. Weeping uncontrollable, she agreed.

So as an 18 year old teenager you first clearly and calmly stated your boundaries and why her behavior was bothering you and rather than stop being so touchy and flirty out of consideration for you she lied about it and called you controlling for 'spying' on her and insisting she have stronger boundaries herself or you guys were done.

A couple years later, after we were married, I learned that she was talking to a former co-worker of ours that had moved to a new Club location via Sam’s internal ‘email’ system (this was before the days of the Internet and emails). She erased the messages before I could see them but assured me it was nothing but a friendship and she was afraid to tell me because I’d blow it up. A few years after that, I was looking through her purse or saw a letter looking out and when I opened it up, learned a co-worker had written her a ‘love note / poem.’ Again, she explained to me that it was nothing and that she had ‘taken care’ of the issue.

The love note was the last ‘incident’ that I can remember – that was about 12/13 years ago but throughout the rest of our marriage, my wife continued to be somewhat flirtatious and very engaging with the opposite sex – often most of her friends at work were guys. She had very few friends that were girls unless they were the wives or girlfriends of my friends. That’s not to say she didn’t have girlfriends…just that her nature tendencies seemed to befriend guys. At various times throughout the marriage, I would check her phone to see who she had talked to or check her text messages / calendar entries to find ‘proof’ she was telling the truth. And most of the time, I never found a single thing but I was never able to satisfy my need for proof that she truly loved me.

More inappropriate behavior on her part that rightly set off your radar and she dismissed and minimized that also.

Double standards [I can go networking or travel because I had a profession that required it whereas she was in an industry job and she didn’t have to do those things to be successful or she wasn’t compensated as well and therefore it didn’t make sense for her to be away from the family; that I could go out and drink with my friends but I wasn’t comfortable with her doing it since I felt she (and most women) are more susceptible in situations involving alcohol and the opposite sex; it was ok for me to play golf for 4hrs but if she wanted to go shopping – I would rationalize that shopping wasn’t a hobby and that she shouldn’t go; and if she wanted to do any of these things – I would make her feel guilty for taking time away from the family]

Yeah you were kind of an asshole. This is something to sit down and discuss like adults, not cower in terror from and flee into the arms of another man.

 Lack of Respect, Talking Down / Belittling [trying to ‘convince’ her that new things she wanted to do were stupid or strange such as wanting to drink beer (instead of wine for example), watch horror flicks, or drink coffee – all things that she/we had never done to that point and that scared me she was changing/growing and making her more likely to find guys with more in common which only added to my insecurities; she felt I ‘talked down’ to her including at times in front of our daughters]

Again kind of a dick thing to do but also, again, something to talk about like adults.

Question: Talking down to her and insulting her involved what exactly? "You're a stupid whore, why would you even want to fucking do that?" or "That's dumb, what's the point?" While they are both demeaning there's a big difference.

Shit talking your spouse in front of kids is an absolute no no.

 Not supporting her [not wanting her to travel for her job; not wanting for her to work really late hours]

Okay how dare you want to have a say in that. /sarcasm

That's not being unsupportive. That's being nervous for very good fucking reasons.

And one final piece that muddied the water was that our primary love languages are different - while I’m Physical Touch and she is Acts/Services. As we learned after the A, this difference explained why she asked me if I ever loved her as I tried to explain to her I had put her on a pedestal. For me, we had a very active sex life and were very physically close for a couple that had been together for so long – something that I mistook for having a healthy-loving relationship. I recognized that there were things in the marriage that she didn’t like although I didn’t realize how important to her that they were as an expression of love. For me, there were plenty of things that I had complained about or needs that went less than fulfilled throughout the same timeframe that I just learned to live with – recognizing that no marriage is perfect.

I hated that she didn’t like to cook or when she did, she’d leave a mess behind. I couldn’t understand why she would leave her clothes out after she changed 3-4 times before work and then come home and move them from the edge of the bed to the floor. I didn’t feel like she initiated sex as much as I would have liked and wasn’t open to discussing how we could make it better/more enjoyable. I couldn’t understand why she didn’t think she was beautiful even though I told her all of the time – it was like she discounted anything I said that was positive because I was her husband and that is what I was supposed to do. I wanted her to want to do more with me like we did before the kids came along – couple’s vacation, tennis, golf, dates, etc.

So all the disrespect and abuse when it comes to not being Super Spouse is on you, while her own shortcomings are to be expected because of... what? Your shortcomings?

I don't see abuse here. I see fucked up relationship dynamics that could use a good book on communication or IMAGO or something but acting like an asshole and worrying that your spouse is being unfaithful because she demonstrates truly shitty boundaries and has zero consideration for your feelings on it and chalks it up to control isn't something to be OMFG RISK. The only risk involved there is her acknowledging she was probably as much a bitch about things as you were an asshole and having to actually grow up and be an adult about this shit.

At the end of the day, I don't know how much longer I can continue to invest in the relationship while feeling like I'm the only one working to make changes, while there is no intimacy, no verbal reassurance of love, and the consistent focus on all that was wrong in the marriage. She says she is changing - working on being more vocal about her feelings instead of shutting down and trying to see/hear me differently instead of assuming that I'm saying one thing but thinking like my old self. But without a relationship and without intimacy, it is nearly impossible to prove to each other that we are changing or find examples of things we can still work on. I'm opening myself back up to the chance of getting hurt again because I believe we can both change but she doesn't have the confidence that we can. I just don't know what to do...

You're separated and she's stated in so many words she doesn't want to R because she's scared of you failing.

Why continue to invest in this non-relationship at all? Work on yourself and go forward assuming she is going to continue to fail to address her own shit as she has been. If she jumps up and surprises you last minute then enjoy the miracle. Otherwise life goes on. Learn to enjoy it without her rather than be miserable waiting for her to grow up.

eta:

So you know, this:

The only risk involved there is her acknowledging she was probably as much a bitch about things as you were an asshole and having to actually grow up and be an adult about this shit.

Does happen. My wife, my beautiful, sexy, brilliant wife who still thinks of her flaws as fatal character breakage rather than simply being human, threw herself all in and did so. If I were to be crushed by a falling ball of frozen airplane feces tomorrow I have faith she would grieve hysterically for a bit but carry on and continue to strive to better days.

That took a lot of work on her part to do. She faced down a lot of fears and a massive load of shame. She was afraid of things also, but after dday when she had the courage and fortitude to look at what she was really afraid of it wasn't that I would fail again. It was responsibility.

I will say right out that a lot of your story resonates with me so that is why I'm more insanely chattery than usual. We both have and had a lot of shit to work on. I don't know about you but it sounds like you have been trying. Months of counseling, lifestyle changes? Me too. I started small, with my diet. Changed from McD's and BK and shit to subway sandwiches, then packed lunches and salads.

Little things over the span of years. Accepting that the things we did hurt our spouse and then accepting that the things we tried to do to help heal them were not inadequate to the task, but refused. You know how you tell your wife she is beautiful but she only hears it from other men, because you are obligated to? That's her choice and her issue and you can't fix it. You can just continue to tell her the truth until she's ready to hear it as it is, or you're too tired to speak it to her anymore.

You throw a rock around here and see if you don't hit a woman that wouldn't cry if she heard her husband expound on how beautiful she is.

You don't have to give up hope that your wife will come out of this place. It's very possible. You do have to stop taking responsibility for her actions and feelings, so she can learn to do that herself.

I hope it works out man. There will never be enough success stories. Just keep striving towards the better for yourself, it can only help your family in the long run no matter what.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 9:02 AM, November 20th (Tuesday)]

The examples are helpful. I was going to do exactly what StillGoing did, and say pretty much exactly what he said.

You wife exhibited red flags early on that set you on edge. When you called her on them, she made it your fault. And you buy that for what reason?

Women in committed relationships don't (properly) touch and flirt with other men. Period. It is inappropriate and sends the wrong message, and someone is bound to follow up with her. Deep down, I think you know that.

Flirtatious, most friends are men, love notes from some guy, these are red flags, not just a by product of her sweet charming self. They are symptoms of her brokenness. She needs to see that, and be willing to change that, before she is R material.

And she's really not there. You and your wife are the perfect example of a WS justifying her behavior by blaming the BS and expecting the BS to change so the WS feels like being married to the BS again.

Wrong! That's the fog that she's in. It's really thick and it's enveloped you as well. She needs to knock herself out working on the relationship every minute before she earns the right to have you give her a second chance.

Were you a jerk sometimes? Sounds like it. But that doesn't make it okay to flirt and have sex with another man. It just doesn't. You didn't drive her to this. Re-read everything StillGoing has posted at least 10 times. Read up on the 180 and consider really implementing it.

I really hope you see that you are buying into her justifications and you don't need to do that. Commit yourself to changing what you need to change but understand that your shortcomings did not cause her to cheat.

I keep looking for our MC counselor to tell her the same things that has been posted on this board, lay out a process that we need to follow to move forward, to call bullshit on her for everything she’s doing and saying…but instead, she seems fairly unbiased but at times leaning towards her side of reasoning and calling out my unhealthy ways...

And really, get a new MC! She's not "unbiased," she's incompetent to deal with infidelity. You both need to deal with the affair first and foremost, not what YOU did wrong.

Please read "Not Just Friends." Ask your wife to do the same.

Reread this thread. We just want to help you. Good luck.

Lonelyhusband where were you when I needed the BS butt kicking, lol.

I did what you said. a few months late but it worked and were in R.

L4J.

After spending the last 45minutes reading through all of this I've come to this conclusion:

Your not in R. Your doing all the work, she just seems to blame you

Since you're not in R, MC seems a waste of time and $.

Maybe it's time for a bit of a more hardcore sh#t or get off the pot approach.

So a brief (comparatively) update.

After our MC session yesterday (Monday morning) in which I had hoped to take more of a stand about what I felt she did in the relationship that she needed to address that contributed to our marital issues as well as ask what she had identified were her 'flaws' that allowed the A to take place.

Instead, the MC initially started with me talking about what I thought forgiveness looked like and then quickly moved to what my wife thought our relationship would look like to her in an ideal situation. That quickly went to what it always goes to - what made her unhappy in the marriage and that needed to be different in her ideal marriage. That she wanted to hear me say how I recognized what I did made her so miserable. The counselor wanted me to restate what I had heard her say (our normal process) and for the next 20mins they tried to 'help me' hear what I kept missing when I would explain what I heard.

Realizing that the session went back to the same stuff, I got pissed and just said what the f**k does it matter - she doesn't believe a word a say or a thing I do. And then I started talking about what I needed to know she was working on (in a very loud voice) and the MC and she were like - 'but she's said several times that she is working on being more open about her feelings and not shutting down; not worrying about what others think about her and how they will react when she tries to make a decision; and not to take on so much stress worrying about others.' I didn't even get to discuss how those things were only a couple of the things I saw or that those in now way explained why she had the A. At that point, my wife started yelling back at me about how much she hated coming home because of the stress of wondering what she was going to do wrong in my eyes and how much she hated the way I treated her. (It was the first time I can remember her ever being so passionate/loud about anything.)

The session ended and we both stormed out - a few minutes later she called me as I pulled into my client's parking lot. She tearfully asked - 'What do you want from me?' After a long pause, I told her I wanted her to be open, to tell me she loved and missed me (even though there were things she hated and didn't miss at all), that she had hope that we could get through things, and to let me know what was going on in her life. That not knowing what she was thinking, feeling, or doing left me filling in the blanks and while I try to stay positive, there are so many negative things that fill those empty spots. I asked her what she needed...but at that point she had gotten to her office and had to rush in for a meeting (red nose and puffy eyes and all).

So we spoke tonight for 2 hours as a continuation of that discussion. I took the opportunity to tell her that there were two things going on here - the marriage issues and the affair - and that I didn't think it was possible to address the marital issues without addressing the affair. I told her I didn't think the things she was working on were relevant to the affair and that I needed to know how she was 'taking responsibility for her decisions.' I tried to explain to her the other behaviors that she exhibited during our marriage that I felt contributed to the exact behavior that she came to despise (and vice versa). While she was extremely remorseful for her mistake, she couldn't get past how horrible she felt in the marriage.

In the end, I told her I didn't feel safe in our relationship and that I needed her to be open with me, help me understand what she was doing to make sure she never made the same mistake, and look at things from my perspective. She ultimately said she couldn't give me what I needed to feel safe because it meant she had to give up what made her feel safe (you can interpert that any way you like).

We talked more about our marriage - both agreeing that the early incident in our relationship regarding her lying about touching a guy at work - really sent our relationship in the direction it ultimately ended up at. We both went round and round talking about the other's actions drove our behaviors and agreed that we both saw so much of our marriage completely differently and that it was hopeless to some degree. That we did the best we could back then given that we didn't poses the knowledge we have now about how healthy relationships look, how to better communicate, etc.

Finally I started asking the hard questions - why are you here for, do you think we can get through this, etc? Was she just looking for me to be the one to call for the divorce first to save her the guilt, did she truly think we had a chance, or was she just going through the motion. She admitted that she knew she would feel additional guilt and pain knowing she had been the one to split the family (officially) if she called for the divorce. That she didn't know if it would ever work out.

In the end, it was clear that she still sees me the same way (as the person that treated her like shit and made her absolutely miserable) and doesn't know how long, if ever, she will ever see me differently. That it is very difficult for her to envision us being together and her being happy...not that she can't see it, but that it is extremely hard. As much as I tried to explain to her that I am a different man than I was nine months ago, she just felt 'it was too late for her' and that 'we were in two different places.' I let her know in no uncertain terms that I wasn't done fighting and wasn't ready to throw in the towel...that I was able to see a future where the things I loved about the marriage could still exist and even be better - that she and I both were capable of making the changes we needed to in order for that to happen.

She said she didn't want to end the discussion over the phone...that we should discuss next steps in person whether that meant more MC sessions, a truer separation, or divorce. I agreed and told her I was fine with either with the MC or without. So she is going to look and find a time that works for us to determine where we go from here.

I feel very confident that a divorce is right around the corner and I just don't know how to stop it. Best case, we continue MCing but she continues to feel no love for me for a really long time.

I step back from this and see that I have to ask myself the questions that 'Heavy Sigh' brought up...and I just don't know if I can do it. How long can I stay in limbo, try to maintain a healthy life with this unhealthy/lop-sided marriage, and deal with the issues from the affair? I truly think, at this point, if I were to do the 180 or demand anything - that she would simply leave me. I'm thinking a true separation (i.e. - no time together as a family, no friendly phone calls, no talking to the kids before they go to bed each night for either of us) may be the best bet at this point but I'm going to leave it to our MC and/or ICs to help make that call.

Thanks for everyone's support - while it may seem like I am ignoring some advice, believe me - I am truly considering everything as I move forward.

[This message edited by looking4justice at 11:41 PM, November 20th (Tuesday)]

I DO believe in exit affairs and think my WH had one. Soon after he told me he was in love with someone else, I read about the nine types of affair and the very small chance of R with this one. I wish that day I'd asked him to move out and filed. We had a year of false R. His feelings for me had been nil for years, and after I got over the shock of separation, I realised I didn't love him either. He's still with her, and I love someone else. Sometimes a M is dead and the A is just an easy way of getting out without addressing its problems. No less painful, but more terminal. Why are you posting in the R forum? Sorry to sound a bit blunt, but probably best not to torture yourself with R thoughts.