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Our kids are alright, they're pretty unaware luckily. He's an amazing Dad

That's what I thought too. My oldest is in counseling now to deal with his anger at the "little" things he witnessed.

My ex is a very good dad too. Doesn't change the fact his behavior towards me was wrong and unhealthy. Kids can be very good at hiding things that they feel will upset their parents especially any of their distress if they feel it will add to a parent they're protecting.

Kids are little empaths. They absorb the environment they're exposed to and have to process it using tools they don't even know how to use yet. As a result all kinds of "wonderful" coping skills are adopted.

Don't let your fear become theirs. That is actually selfish. You will need to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation and find your voice. If you freeze and shut down as an adult do you not think your children, who don't have the options you do, will not repeat and form their own dysfunctions to learn to cope as well?

Courage, Sienna. Show them how to be accountable and authentic even if it puts you out there.

I'll be a lot better as soon as my H is hurting less.

From what you've said, this has always been your dynamic. It's not likely to change, only to get worse. I don't think your husband is so disgusted by your "childishness" that he is cutting you loose; that's exactly his intention, is to humiliate you. The very real danger is that he sees exactly how it looks for a grown woman to go to a counseling session with a chaperone and be too afraid to speak. HE SEES IT. HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE'S DOING TO YOU. HE KNOWS IT'S WRONG. HE KNOWS HOW OTHER PEOPLE WILL INTERPRET IT. He is exercising some extreme emotional abuse, with just enough physical to put you in shock.

Mine withheld his violent tendencies for years. He became violent only when I actually started questioning him. After 12 years of marriage, he body-slammed me face first into a wall, and my skull broke the sheetrock; my nose hasn't healed properly. I was in shock and actually stayed with him 3 years after that. There were minor shoving incidents in between, but it took him 3 more years to spank me because I was acting like a child; I actually went to the doctor for Flexeril for that one.

Please go to IC and at least listen to what they have to say.

[This message edited by veritas at 11:37 AM, April 8th (Monday)]

Sienna, I'm a betrayed husband if that matters to what I'm about to say...

You are in an abusive relationship. I'll outright say it. No one ever has the right to touch you in the manner you have described. No one should treat you like a child. No one should yell at you in said manner. You keep qualifying it as your fault for his choices. If you didn't do this, if you did that, and so on. No. No no no.

Quit making excuses for your husband. There is no excuse for it.

I used to have a very bad anger problem, well by my definition. It was bad enough to affect me in extremely toxic ways. Only my wife ever felt the brunt of it, and only when I was very angry. I'd mostly just yell at her when we fought and eventually that turned to outright belittling and verbal abuse. She'd dish it right back, and we both excused it away as "we were angry", "you've had a rough life", "if this didn't happen I wouldn't have reacted like that". All bullshit. It was also easy to excuse because the rest of the relationship was wonderful, so long as we didn't get into a fight. And we only got into a fight every couple months because of our families... Oh, wait, shifting blame there. Our families didn't do it, we did. Didn't stop us from placing blame on others for our dysfunctions. And we chose to act the way we did because we simply did. I chose to act that way.

2 years ago I physically accosted my wife. Without warning or even provocation I straddled her on our couch and held her shoulder down and yelled something in her face (neither of us remember - which is sad). It lasted maybe 10 seconds at most. I was immediately horrified, went outside and broke down into sobbing tears over what a "piece of shit I am". She followed right behind saying it was okay, that I was very stressed and we'd work on things.

There was no excuse or justification for my action.

I grew up in an incredibly violent home, both my parents fought and hit each other. Hospital and doctor visits for my mom (dentist too since my father knocked out all of her teeth). My father had stitches. Blood was a common sight for me as a child. Hitting me, which they both did, was just a natural extension of their thinking. I knew violence was wrong and swore I'd never grow up like them.

For the most part I didn't. Until I was finally away from them and didn't have them as the counterbalance to all my choices. When on my own, that lifetime of abuse and trauma crept up on me and in only a few years I was heading down the same path they walked before me. In that solitary moment I saw the possibilities that laid before me. If I was willing to touch my wife in that manner, in a way I never had before mind you (which would have been a great excuse - "it only happened this once"), how far would I eventually go?

You never start by breaking bones and causing blood loss. It starts smaller and then escalates over time.

I personally put a stop to my own bullshit and have done everything since to change myself as a person, to put myself back on the right path.

I've never bruised my wife, never physically moved her when she has been in my way, never forced her to maneuver how I wish (grabbing her to sit up or down). Yet with that one action I showed myself and her I was capable of heading down that path and I had to make sure I didn't.

Your husband needs help. A lot of help. He is controlling, he is angry, he is demanding, he belittles you. He manhandles you, literally. You are not a child, not his to do with as he pleases. First step to owning your life and acting like an adult is to put a stop to this.

Others have already addressed you needing to get into counselling and why it is bullshit that he doesn't want you to go (and no, it's not that they'd get the wrong idea, they'd get precisely the right idea), which I agree with. I just wanted to address the physical issue from my own perspective.

Please, get the help you need, and he definitely needs help of his own.

[This message edited by VD2012 at 11:56 AM, April 8th (Monday)]

Him = abuser

You = abused

It's crystal fucking clear. You are blaming yourself - "I push him to the edge". He's all in your heard. UO is spot on. You NEED IC, desperately. My bigger concern is what he will do to you once he sees you getting healthy. He WILL NOT like it. He will see it as loss of control. You will pay dearly. I hate to be cryptic, but that's what I predict. Get help. You need it, sweetie.

Sienna, all I can muster up is hugs for you. No fancy words, no opinions, just hugs.

You've got alot of feedback today and I don't know if you truly realize your husband's abuse. The comments you read here may scare you. It may scare you to see people saying and identifying your husband as they have. But please don't let that silence you from posting here or seeking help.

Those that post to you write from experience. They know what it's like. They have walked the path that you are walking. And they want to see you be not only safe, but healthy.

(((Sienna)))

He sees me not speaking as being childish and he's probably right, it just drives him mad. He asks me a question and if I don't answer he just sort of pulls down on my arm and shouts my name. He does know it isn't right, he knows he can be horrible to me. He isn't a bad person I'm just driving him to the edge.

You are probably not answering because the questions he is asking are setting you up to fail. Does he ask questions like "why did you do something that stupid?"? Those aren't questions you should answer. He's not trying to have a conversation. He is bullying you. You wouldn't freeze up if he wasn't bullying you. Period.

You are not driving him to the edge. He is simply escalating his bullying to regain control of you. I know. I have lived it for 28 years.

Our kids are alright, they're pretty unaware luckily. He's an amazing Dad. We had 1 shaky moment a while back but that's all forgotten now. I'll be a lot better as soon as my H is hurting less.

They are not alright. They are very aware. I stayed with my WH because I thought it would protect my kids from him. No one wanted to see him with half custody. I should have left. I can see now the effect his behavior has had on them.

1 shaky moment is 1 too many. And it should be dealt with, not forgotten.

I guarantee you, your H may not be as hurt as he is raging inside because your A showed an independence from him that is intolerable.

You seriously need to be in IC for YOU. Your marriage needs new, safe boundaries.

I know he isn't perfect but he isn't as bad as this makes him seem, I live with him and know him and he's beautiful.

I need him to take control, I don't want to be in control. Yes I want to speak up more but I know he wants that too.

When I was young I taught myself to swallow my feelings while I was dealing with something. I only intended it to be temporary and it's just stuck. It's got worse with time. My husband recognises this and he doesn't like it. He likes to talk about everything and wants me to open up to him.

If I hadn't messed up, if I'd just talked to him I wouldn't be where I am now.

I have made him so, so angry and sad and he felt/feels humiliated. He's never hit me or raised his hand to me.

He always tells me how good I am and he supports me in anything I try my hand at. Even now when we're having such a rough time. He's no monster, he's a good man.

We both know we need to watch it with our children. We're both very aware of this and it broke my husband's heart when our youngest saw something and got upset. We both talked to him at the time and explained, as best we could to a 3 year old. I don't want my children growing up with hurt and neither does my husband.

it broke my husband's heart when our youngest saw something and got upset

What did he see?

Let's operate from the supposition that he isn't a monster, that he's not all that bad.

Suppose your child, like mine, has a disability that impedes fine and gross motor skills. My daughter is a firecracker. She's funny, bright, and sociable.

When she gets home, however, she needs help in the bathroom (which she doesn't at school). She's exhausted and needs help with everything. She's good in English and reading above grade level, but her math skills stink, even as her capacity for logic and reasoning is pretty darned good. Doing math homework is one way to get her in bed almost immediately. I spend a lot of my time in the evenings redirecting her, so by the end of the day, I'm pretty exhausted, too.

As her mother, I want to be her soft place to land, but I don't want to be her crutch, the thing that prevents other people from seeing how truly brightly her light can shine. I can push her, because I am her mother, but for an adult relationship to survive, it needs two adults, not two children.

You have a light that shines within you, as does your husband. And at the end of the day, either you can exhaust yourselves trying to keep each other's flames lit, or you can do it for yourselves and sit back and enjoy the fireplace together.

And I think that's what marriage should be: not a 50/50 split, or a 70/30 split, or a 40/60 split. It should be both of you giving 100%. There will be times when his 100% is bigger than yours or vice versa, but that's okay because the balances are going to tip back again, eventually.

If you're so willing to be together when you're constantly having to prop each other up, just imagine... if you could do that kind of work with a full tank, where you weren't always on high alert, where there wasn't always a crisis.

Where you could speak your mind and make decisions because you have confidence in yourself to do the right thing, which I don't think you have.

To get to that point, you both would have to get over the notions of there being heroes and villains in every scenario; that mistakes are fatal; and that any one human being has control over another. Shutting down hasn't worked for you, and taking charge hasn't worked for him. Open yourself to the possibility that there might be other options and you might have a chance of not repeating this same cycle every number of years.

[This message edited by veritas at 11:09 PM, April 8th (Monday)]

He saw my husband pulling my arm and it upset him because he really isn't used to seeing anything like that. He didn't think it was normal and he didn't like it.

My H is committed to us working out and so am I so we'll see how it goes and i'll try to do more.

I do appreciate everyones advice/opinion even if I don't agree or find it scary.

Sienna, just offering support. You have received some great advice on this thread. Please listen to it and digest it, don't dismiss it with 'but he is a great father/husband'.

It seems that your BH could use some IC himself for his anger. It isn't saying he is an awful person, just that he could also use some help with his anger management.

Is this something he would consider? I am sure there are some good books that would help him also.

He didn't think it was normal and he didn't like it.

That's because you probably don't parent your kid by pulling on him and leaving bruises, or humiliating him when he doesn't perform like you think he should.

I know and I'm honestly grateful. I won't dismiss it.

I'm not sure if he would go to IC. I'll talk to him about it again though.

Thank you again.

Sienna, what about when he wiped your little ones mouth off after you kissed them and told them "you don't know where that's been"?

You aren't seeing it because you're used to it. I understand this oh so well.

As you get healthier you will have far different perceptions. I never even registered when my ex would move me out of the way. I just accepted it. I'd been treated as an object all my life so never even left a ripple.

There is a voice inside you trying to get your attention. Deep down. If you don't work on your internal processes the "acting out" will happen again and that rage will continue to grow.

Start there. Internal processes that ok'd your choices. You may just find they're linked to the same ones that have tolerated shit from others as well.

Yes I know and it's horrible, I get that most days but my kids don't understand and he doesn't say the disgusting stuff in front of them.

I don't think he always does it to be nasty, he thinks it's funny. He says it and people laugh. My close friends ignore him and then he'll be like 'aww i'm just joking, lighten up'.

I've definitely got used to the arm thing. His friend said 'what you doing', my husband looked at me then when I didn't talk he said 'oh so you want it like I beat you now' but, no I don't, he doesn't beat me and I couldn't imagine him hitting me, he's not that kind of person.

It upsets him if I flinch! He won't hit me, honestly.

He doesn't have to lay a hand on you to abuse you.

I've definitely got used to the arm thing

Yep, me too. You've gotten "used to" many things because they are purposely just under the obvious "holy shit" bar and cleverly concealed around "normal". "You're too sensitive", after all, right???

My ex had a pretty big cushion. Knowing my mother and seeing some of the shit he had a very low bar gifted to him. Like having ugly bridesmaids to make "you" look better. He looked positively god like by comparison.

So, you were "boiling frogged" and now your realization that you are burning will not be greeted with applause and support. That's why you need to focus on those internal processes. Shore yourself up. Don't rug sweep any of your choices. Having accountability and responsibility for those will help you hold others responsible for theirs.

You can do this. You just keep getting healthy for your little ones and yourself as that goal.

I know I should work on where my bar is, set it higher and change habits. In practice though, it's hard- i've put myself well and truly on the back foot. He was calling me a whore so I slept around. He said i'm easy so I had sex with guys I'd known 5 minutes, he said i'm dirty so an alley and club toilets like really, I can't exactly say he's wrong. I wasn't all those nasty names but I am now. If you see what I mean.

why do you allow his words to define you? was he calling you those names before you cheated? why did you feel the need to prove him right?

Sienna,

At what point in your life did you learn to just be quiet and not speak up for yourself? Was it before you met your H?