SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

((((tdreampol))) First of all, I'm very sorry you have a need to be here, but glad you found us.

I have to tell you my antennae are really pinging. I know you feel awful, but the way you're posting concerns me. It's natural to want things to be okay quickly---but the fact of the matter is that this is a shitstorm, and if denial clings for too long, it turns to rug-sweeping---and that is NEVER good.

Your insistence that things are better already worries me. Why? Because you "don't want to be sadistic" and talk about it, primarily.

I don't think you have the whole story. Your last paragraph kind of clinches it for me. Your wife is not NC, if she's looking at pictures. She's still in the affair, at least in her head. She wasn't perusing pictures because she was trying to identify people post drive-by. You know that, right?

Is she in IC? Has she shared all passwords with you? Do you have access to her phone?

There's a lot of focus on how shitty this guy is, and if the things you're being told are true, it does sound like he was a REALLY poor choice of partner, in a male bunny-boiler sort of way.

BUT--I am not sure what you're being told is true. And because you're not talking about it ---with each other and in IC (I'd table MC until you're sure she's a safe partner for you; MC with a WS who's not there yet can be emotionally disastrous for the BS, IMO)--you really can't assess the situation fully.

You say you know the whys. No. The reasons you've listed are superficial. Some are excuses, and some may be contributors. There is something deeper. We all have a list like hers. But we don't all give ourselves permission to have emotional affairs, then go to our affair partners' houses to have sex several times, perhaps without protection. (You do know that the work colleagues weren't going to go there, too, right? That was never the plan---it's the story your wife is telling you, and perhaps herself, to make it more palatable to you. And THAT is what is worrisome to me. As is the assertion that a pregnancy scare resulted from one slipped condom; most of us have learned, the hard way, that "We used condoms" is a lie. And if the lies aren't getting cleared up now, R isn't going to happen.)

You are very eager to put this behind you. And we all get that--because...well, we would like very much to do that, too.

But you can't. You have to go through it, and the process is lengthy. It involves really digging, even when it seems "sadomasochistic."

Communication is key---and you're avoiding it. Please--let me tell you from hard experience that secrets and lies build barriers to intimacy that absolutely preclude any possibility of reconciliation.

If you're not talking, you're not reconciling. Keeping quiet to spare your wife shame is NOT the tack to take. Shame is .... well, a problematic emotion, as Jana described. It stands in the way of healing. It, too, is a barrier to intimacy. (And by intimacy, I am referring to emotional intimacy---you can't have it, be real partners in life, if you're avoiding and denying and tiptoeing around and forgiving what you do not yet know.) Quite often, it is the precursor to further infidelity.

In your shoes, I'd ask for a detailed written timeline of all infidelity-related activities--starting with the first barrier crossed, emotionally, and going through today (again, if she's spending hours poring over pictures online, she's not NC--at least not in her head; that needs to be addressed). I'd gently tell your wife that you know that there's more to the story, and that you want to know it all, because you can't forgive what you do not know. By all means, let her know that your intention is to remain in the marriage (recognizing that, of course, that you do have choices, too---and that one of them is ending the marriage; remember, she has stated that she believed the affair would end your marriage, and had it anyway--and has not really done much work to make herself safe, since).

As for the STD testing. You say you would think 2 tests at 3-month intervals would be enough. Different doctors have different recommendations, but many recommend testing at 6 months, and then at 12 (and sometimes also at 18) months. Followed by annual HIV testing.

The really rotten thing about infidelity is that once you've experienced it, and really processed it, you realize it could be ongoing or happen again. Because your wife is NOT NC (at least in her head), I would err on the side of caution, and go for more testing rather than less.

I know this is blunt, and not what you want to hear---but I am telling you because false reconciliation is common, and yours is showing some signs of falsity. I genuinely hope that I am wrong---but I really think it's important that you take some deep breaths over the coming days, and face this head-on instead of tiptoeing around it. You will never feel safe if you don't---even if your wife never looks at another man again. Worse, your reconciliation will not be complete. It would be a shame if the remainder of your marriage were incomplete because you chose not to really work through because the work was too hard.

It's possible you will learn that you DO have the whole story, and can move forward from there. But if not, you can still move forward constructively.

Millions of hugs to you.

[This message edited by solus sto at 8:43 AM, April 11th (Thursday)]

Well let me clear one thing up, we did and have talked and talked and talked about it. Everyday for months, and after it going on like that for a long time she said look I will work through this with you I just can't everyday so we kind of took a bit of a break. But I absolutely will continue to talk about it.

The picture thing sucks! And I know there is more to it. I do have access to her phone, computer email everything.

I do believe I have most if not all of the relevant details. Please be blunt, don't spare my feelings and I don't want to be a fool.

Also can you give me a reason that is not superficial?? What am I missing?

[This message edited by tdreampol at 9:06 AM, April 11th (Thursday)]

I found in her browser history that she looked him and his ex wife up in the internet and looked at pictures of him for a few hours. When I asked about this, she said when he drove by he had someone with him and that she wanted to make sure it wasnt her friend and to see if maybe him and his ex had gotten back together.

I am sorry man, but I am calling bs on this. NC means mental NC as well. If she is still thinking about POSOM that is not NC. It is clear it bothers you. Her response was "don't worry about it." WTF ! She is not providing you any safety. Despite the words she is telling you, what do her actions tell you ? I mean do you just have to simply trust her again ? Again I have to say that once trust is broken it has to be earned back by being consistent over time. Taking their word for it got us here.

Have you clearly established boundaries for her ? Consequences that go along with breaking those boundaries. It appears she has already established boundaries for herself (that benefit her alone I might add).

What do you need to feel safe enough to begin to work through this. You have every right to ask and receive what you need. Things are not equal in this. She made a choice that hurt you very badly. At that moment it become a whole new relationship. You are allowed and deserve that.

Also the fact she is concerned about a co-worker finding out means she still believes that this can be swept under the rug (partially anyway). What was done is done. No amount of damage control can make this ever go away completely.

I see some red flags here man. Be careful and watchful.

I know this sounds harsh, but I see you in an early stage where it is dangerous for you. Just trying to help you set the tone needed for a successful attempt at R.

Thanks, not to harsh AT ALL. my head is a mess some days. I am thinking through everything and reading all these makes me wonder about a few issues IE did they actually use condoms at all?

Am I being to naive?

I will write down everything I want to talk about and have questions on still and address them with her.

What kind of consequences do you recommenced?

Im sorry,but I think there's alot more to this than she's told you.

Can you expound on that statement please?

My heart is dropping.

There was a pretty good post that Lonelyhusband did in the recon forum (I hope I got that right) awhile back. I think it is still there back a few pages. I'll see if I can bump it for you.

It explains it well. This are highly individualized for for situation.

For example, breaking no contact. If NC is broken (by her) or if OM reaches out to her and she does not inform you, then that means she has to move out until she can agree to this boundary you have.

You both have choices. No one is "required" to work things out. If you have needs that are not being met and she refuses, you can pursue healing in a more independent path. (e.g.-180, S, D, etc.)

ETA: There are also some pretty good articles in the healing library that talk about boundaries too.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 2:46 PM, April 11th (Thursday)]

These are a few things that stand out to me.

The long term is that she was hanging out at a bar with a bunch of coworkers. They were all supposed to go to his house to hang out. So she went over there, but no one else came over. He made a move and they made out. Then the next weekend she went over to his house, imo to make out again. Not necessarily to have sex, but then see my first post. I think she wanted to leave me to be with him for about a week while she was "in the fog" then saw in a hurry what a tool he was. All the while I was trying to improve our marriage before I knew anything. So I would say it was a Small EA and Small PA for about 3-4 weeks. With two days of anything physical and one of those days being sex

Okay, here is where I don’t believe her story. I don’t believe she was out with coworkers and that none of them wanted to go to the OM's house. I believe the OM and your WS had planned to meet at his place alone. I believe that they were already having an affair and finally decided to meet to do the deed. Saying she was with coworkers was to throw you off her trail. Going back the following weekend was just to have more fun. There was no guilt involved here.

Also at first the guy (divorced) implied to her that he had only been with his now ex-wife, but after they had sex he admitted to having one night stands and all kinds of other things, so yea we got STD tests quick. She really got played, BUT IT WAS STILL HER CHOICE!

I think this was her “wake up” call to the fact that he wasn’t what he seemed to be. You see, at this point she realizes she isn't that special after all. However, she still wasn’t completely convinced until she did this:

Then called him on the phone and talked to him about all the shitty things he did and that she would NEVER see him again.

I don't believe it was a call to tell him NC from now on. I believe it was a "how could you have lied to me like that, I risked everything for you" call and once she got pissed off she told him never to contact her again.

And the cherry on top for her was this.

I found in her browser history that she looked him and his ex wife up in the internet and looked at pictures of him for a few hours. When I asked about this, she said when he drove by he had someone with him and that she wanted to make sure it wasnt her friend and to see if maybe him and his ex had gotten back together.

He’d already replaced her with somebody else and it got to her. Even if this is completely true, it doesn’t take a few hours to look at pics to confirm anything.

She may be doing everything she is supposed to NOW to fix things, but it doesn't matter if she isn't being 100% honest with you. I'd have her take a polygraph to confirm her story. Her reaction will tell you a lot. Even if she starts confessing to more things, still insist she takes it. They tend to confess some things, but not everything when confronted with a test.

[This message edited by lieshurt at 3:20 PM, April 11th (Thursday)]

If she's gazing at photos of the OM for any period of time at all then she harboring romantic fantasies about him. She is still emotionally involved, but that will fade with time if she maintains NC.

Don't believe the condom fell off; just too clumsy of an excuse. I think she is trying to tell you very indirectly that they sometimes didn't use condoms. Sometimes a partial untruth is acceptable to the WS rather than an outright lie, like saying they always used contraception.

I agree with the others that your WW is in damage control mode; telling you a hygienic story that you will accept without separation, divorce or retaliation. However that's human nature and probably what most WS's will do.

I fear you guys are correct. But now it feels like dday all over again. The wound is wide open. I hate it. I wish it was easier. I am writing a list of my concerns and questions and we will go over them. She did recently say that if I didn't believe her to call the OM and ask him for confirmation on anything. She still claims it was not a relationship but a tiny EA with almost all physical. Not sure if I buy that or not. They hung out in their group of friends ALLOT, and she even went on a work trip with him alone before it all started(I have confirmed that it was a work trip and her story checks out) to another city for a few hours once and I believe that is actually when the EA kinda started.

I bet she has some feelings left for him and actually I do think that the call she made to him has a NC call, she had already quit her job by then and if she didn't want to end it then I doubt she would have quit and taken every opportunity to see him at work.

I agree with your assessment that this was probably an affair that started sometime ago with both an EA/PA content.

I also believe that you are forgiving far too easily and readily. She is 'getting away' with adultery and is being greeted with tears and open arms. Your WW needs an intense fright, a realization that she nearly lost you; that the marriage came close to ending; that a repeat of this betrayal will surely end the relationship.

She is minimizing the affair - no big deal; just sex; only 3 times on one occasion. Soon she will demand you stop being immature, let bygones be bygones and get on with life.

Next time your marriage drifts into troubled times...well, she already done it once; like the loss of virginity; why not again.

The trust is gone and this emotional weeping and wailing is no good reason to re-establish that trust. Don't let her get away with trivializing her betrayal or this pain may be re-enacted at a later date.

One further point, your wife was so sure that you were committed to R, even through the pain you are experiencing, that she felt confident enough to tell you that sex with the stud OM was quite good. Rather cruel and unnecessary thing to say and reveals that she doesn't feel threatened by the consequences of committing adultery.

The sex probably wasn't an 'accident'; it was a very enjoyable and sought after experience. Had it not been for the pregnancy scare, who knows if the affair would have ended. As it was, it just brought her to her senses.

[This message edited by OK now at 5:24 PM, April 11th (Thursday)]

she even went on a work trip with him alone before it all started(I have confirmed that it was a work trip and her story checks out) to another city for a few hours once and I believe that is actually when the EA kinda started.

If the affair was mostly physical, I would suspect the PA started here.

They hung out in their group of friends ALLOT

and the EA started here.

I think she has regrets over what she has done. Even shown some signs of remorse, but what will prevent it from happening again? What boundaries does she now have.

Looking at pic's for a few hours? A is not over. If she had the chance, in your opinion would she do it again if she thought she wouldn't get caught?

Strength

@Ok now, I agree, but she did own up to it and told me straight away. several things that she told me about the sex... where that the first time it is REALLY short and "not worth it" but she figured she burned the bridge and went for at least two more rounds and that the sex was "really good" she said is was "good not great" and that it was "sad sex" she also told me my cock was bigger without me asking (nice, but not sure it makes a difference, misperception of men right there but ok whatever) you have to know my wife, she gets this attitude where she doesnt give a shit and will just tell the truth and I LIKE that. She told me they did missionary +missionary with one leg up, cowgirl and doggy (I did ask this and it helped the triggers) Also we had not had good exciting sex in a while, so I think she was saying that was part of the allure. Since she had only been with me, I am sure she wondered what it was like with someone else. But let me tell you what, that statement about the sex being good sure haunts me! I asked her if she had an O with him she initially said no, but that was a lie and she later confessed that she did. OMG that one kills me. It almost seems unfair of course the foreplay was better as he spent hours trying to get her in bed making out. SUCKS! She told me the next day after it happened she met OM at a bar and told him "that can never happen again" and I tend to believe that and her timelines do actually work for when she would come home late ETC.

@545real

not sure, about that, she swears it did not and I am inclined to believe it. As soon as the PA started I knew in my heart that something was going down her behavior changed. I do NOT believe she would do it again. After she did it, she was having nightmares about it, panic attacks BEFORE I knew anything. A strange cycle of excitement and shame I believe. I think she would leave me first if she was to do it again. This is surprisingly comforting. I am very sure the A is over, because with kids and everything we literally are together all the time now that she is not working. We have lunch together everyday ETC. I do not believe she wants to have a relationship with this person. He flat out told her she could move in with him straight away if she wanted to leave me and she turned that down, so she has been given plenty of chances to continue the A but has not. Also of note she is a christian and values sexual purity and it almost kills her that she is now an "adulterer". I have turned away from faith in general and this was part of our marriage issues but certainly not all. I did check again and she did search for OM and his ex many times of a three hour period. That will be addressed tonight.

Seems sad that you are no longer her one and only. She's no longer a faithful wife and will not be fully trusted again. All for some cheap, empty sex.

I think it would be a good idea not to allow her to rugsweep; let her dwell on whats lost in the marriage. Its never the same after. The mind movies and memories of the betrayal never completely go away and taint the marriage to some extent. Remind your wife of whats she's lost and the hard work ahead, rather than quickly papering over the cracks.

Right now it sounds if your WW is in a win win situation. Her curiosity has been satisfied regarding sex with other men and she got a new, revitalized, loving, affectionate emotional marriage. A reawakened relationship.

I notice she reminded you that the OM stud would let her move in any time she wanted. A threat and warning? Treat her nice and quit talking about this sexual adventure?

You need to see deep intense remorse and its not there yet.

No the move in was not a threat at all. It was just part of the discussion about how delusional the OM was. She has no interest in that. She also has no interest in him.

So I wrote down all my thoughts and questions and we had a long talk last night that she of course was not happy about. But we got through all of them. You guys are right, they used NO protection the first two times and then she told OM that she is not fixed nor on birth control and they used a condom the third time but it did fall off. So not much condom use at all.

It does seem like it was pretty much 100% a PA, doesn't seem like much emotion or relationship at all. The first night she said other coworkers did go to his house and came and went and that she had a pretty major buzz going on and they made out and then she left. The second time she went over to talk and figured she would leave if things started happening and but was not strong enough to leave. Within a week after that she was done with him as he turned asshole fast. Because she worked with him she didnt want him to freak out and do something stupid because of his issues. So it wasn't a clean break until she quit her job.

As far as the look at the pictures go, the OM has done some stalker type things and is ex military, has mental issues so when she saw him drive by our house she freaked and felt like she needed to protect our kids and herself by gathering information. In all fairness it was searches between him and his exwife. My wife's explanation is that if something is going down or if he tries something she wants to have some idea. She did go through this with her mom, the stalker type stuff so she may be a little trigger happy. UGH I asked how seeing him in the pictures made her feel and she said "she is amazed she did anything with him, I sure would not pick him out of a crowd." and when I read the threads about affairing down he sure is that. I am better looking, now in better shape, way more accomplished, ambitious, make more money, educated and nicer to her. Its crazy but it does make one feel better, to know it wasn't anything about the OM per se that did it.

Anyway, we got a bunch out in the open and I do believe I have the entire story and I believe it is mostly truthful. Nothing else is nagging at my gut at this time. She is pretty pissed off right now and it really brings her down to talk about it in this depth, and part of me understands but it needed to happen. so one day at a time right.....

oh and it is sad that I could have been her only. and trust me she is VERY remorseful. I can't explain everything well in written form here.

Sounds as if your wife may have been bothered about being your one and only; curious as what it would be like with other men. Since you had been with other women before you met your wife?? maybe she thought she ought to experience another partner, even if it were only once; just to level the playing field so as to speak.

That would explain the total PA slant you suspect. If she wasn't looking to fall in love, just enjoyable sex, then you need a reason why she did this.

The sex she had with the OM was very good, how do you prevent a repeat with some other guy?

Assurances of future loyalty seem rather hollow given the sheer casual way she f....d the OM three times in different positions.

Granted she is remorseful she hurt you and imperiled her marriage; remorseful she now is an adulterer and can't be fully trusted; but you need to know that your wife's penchant for a casual fling stops right here and won't be repeated.

She risked pregnancy and disease with her foolishness. Never again should be your mantra.

She is telling you lots of things and you believe her. That is OK, but we here have seen this play out too many times not to be doubtful.

What do her actions tell you ? Looking at pictures of OM ? Why not contact the police if she feared for her or the childrens safety. I am sorry, but the story just seems a little too convenient. If he was a mental case what would it matter if he was attached or not ? This in not someone who values fidelity if he knew your W was M, but did it anyway.

I know you desperately want to believe her and that is OK. You have to protect yourself, just in case. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

The discussion was good, but it will take you some time to process. I will point out that the story did seem to change a little. Trickle truthing is common. She still seems regretful she got caught and how this impacted HER life. Remorse focuses more on the impact her choices have had on you and your children. Being ashamed of being an adulterer is just, but it is grounded in regret not remorse. Actions matching words consistently over time are the only true way to gauge remorse.

The A did not almost end my M. Being lied to about the A nearly did.

The saying goes if someone brags about honesty make them pay cash.

Just be observant, and trust but verify.

She has a whole lot of trust she needs to earn back.

Read up in healing library, those articles can be a godsend.

So my story is this, I had sex a few times with my high school girlfriend before I met my wife. It was truly not that great as most first times are not. I did initially lie to my future wife about it while we where dating and then came clean and told her everything she wanted to know long before we got married. This was YEARS ago. She had made out with a few guys, but I am the only one she slept with. Honestly I kind of feel like my wife was my first as it was such a different experience and very good. She told me sex with OM was good not great and fun because they (at the time) had no baggage like we do. I guess I understand that.

The OM does not care about fidelity AT ALL and would have been happy to have a ongoing PA with her if she was married or not. Fucking rat bastard!

I believe that she actually does FEAR him doing something, I don't know that it is justified fear as he is the biggest chicken shit I have ever met. I confronted him twice in two different situations and he ran away like a little girl coward both times. One heck of a marine. Can I light his truck or house on fire?

After the talk last night she says she just can't relive it all the time and may find a place to stay for a month just to be away from for a bit and I understand that as well. I told if that is what she needed to heal then it is a good plan. But my triggers and bad days are going to be here for a long time. She knows, and I don't think she is at all interested in leaving the marriage but a break to think and get our heads on straight may be in order. ALSO after thinking and talking about it last night I realized this happened 8 months ago not 6 so I don't want to deceive anyone here. Even though it still feels like yesterday. That is why I was not sure about posting in the "just found out" forum. I hope that is ok, it is the first time I have reached out to anyone at all. So thanks for taking the time to read my insanity!

Also, about the never again thing. I have made that VERY clear. If there is even and online EA I am out, end of story period. She gets one shot to repair the PA damage and we can work on the marriage together. Life is short and I will not be miserable. But I do think we can have an amazing life if we work through this shit.

[This message edited by tdreampol at 11:09 AM, April 12th (Friday)]