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Oh and now this will be another reason that we will not work in his eyes. "BECAUSE I HAVE DOUBTs when he goes out for a beer".

Maybe I am not communicating properly to him.

He said that "he is not making excuses he does not have to".

but see its to hard because I hate and have a hard time when he goes out.

He's doing to you what I did to my BW in many ways. That finally changed for me when I found out about he exit plan. Until I saw the end of that rope, nothing was going to change and I would have kept stringing her along.

This sounds exactly like my H last year. Even though he had filed for divorce, he kept waffling and telling me how much he would "always love me" while going out and meeting other women and communicating with the one from D-Day 2. He would have kept dancing that dance as long as I kept doing it too, but when he saw that I had stopped trying to get him to see and started making plans to move on with my life, he woke up hard.

What did you do to stop yourself from doing the dance?

And I remember all that. Wasn't that last summer or last spring? I use to read your post all the time. You sure are different now. Proud of you Jana.

Thank you.

Yes, the insanity started around April, and finally ended in October.

Part of what helped me is that I was spying on him and I knew that he was lying to me. If I hadn't been spying, I would have believed him that I was just paranoid/crazy/unable to "get over it." But when he would tell me that he "couldn't even remember what "her" face looked like" when he had google-searched her and clicked on a page with a picture of her face on it two hours prior . . . well. He'd tell me he wasn't texting any women not knowing I had access to his phone records and knew whose name went with which number.

But my problem was that I kept trying to get him to understand, trying to see my POV, while making it clear that I would be willing to keep trying. Trying to talk him into going to counseling, reading books.

Tired Girl saved my sanity by continually reminding me to focus on me. I didn't really get it until I lost my shit while drunk during one of our half-ass "reconciliation" attempts and hit him, repeatedly. At that point I knew that *I* was screwed up, just as much as him or more, and that *I* had issues that I needed to work on. So I got in IC with a different counselor (previous one let me go on and on for the entire session speculating on my H's behavior and motivation) and started focusing on ME this time - why I did the things I did and why I put up with this shit from him. And eventually I realized that I just needed to accept that nothing I said was going to convince him to change, that he had told me three times he wanted a divorce, his actions backed that up despite the other words he said to the contrary, and I needed to let go and move forward.

So when he hooked up with yet another woman, and I found out, he was very sorry and I was angry, but I told him that it was a moot point since we were divorcing. He said, "I don't think we'd be having this conversation if we weren't both unsure if that's what we wanted." And I had to honestly try not to laugh as I said, "You've told me three times that's what you've wanted, and you've filed for divorce, and hooked up with other women. Why at this point do you think I'd be unsure?" And he was stunned. He was in shock. He told me later that he never really thought that I'd ever give up trying. When I gave up trying, he didn't know what to do, and it's like the floor opened up underneath him (we know how that feels, don't we?)

I don't think it was a conscious thing on his part, but as long as I was willing to put up with that disrespect, it made him feel like it was somehow ok to keep disrespecting me - and he admitted that the blameshifting was to throw me off. He said, "I know I called you crazy, but I never really thought you were crazy." After I told him about all the lies that I knew about, he sat back and said, "No wonder you don't believe a word that comes out of my mouth." He also made a lot of promises right after he had his wake-up call, and I laughed at him and recounted where we were standing and the approxmiate dates of the previous times he had given me the previous promises. Because words don't mean shit at that point. Only action.

Wow, sorry for the novel. But the important take away is, he'll keep disrespecting you as long as you let him. I'm really sorry to say that because it sucks. It really sucks. But you have to be willing to walk away. If you're not willing - don't say it if you don't mean it - then they know they've got you and it's basically liscense to do whatever they want.

You said you spend a lot of time together? Does that include sex? Sex causes you to release hormones that make you feel more attached to that partner. So the first thing I do to detach is stop that activity. Besides, he shouldn't get to have access if he isn't sure he wants it...

It also helped me to start spending more time with friends and doing the things I used to enjoy but had given up. This has been as simple as taking long bubble baths but also traveling without him, and taking up old hobbies that he has no interest in.

But above all keep in mind that HE isn't meeting your needs. He isn't being the kind of man you want. He is the one that has really messed up (and seems to continue to). You want more and deserve better and can have it. After a year it shouldn't be up to him to determine if your M is going to continue. It is your decision.

(((faithful))))

((Faithful))

Please go back and read your text messages with him.

You ask him why you should not be worried when you are M and he tells you he would like to date. He answers that you shouldn't really be getting butterflies.

Gently, You really are not M..., yes, in the legal sense, but not in the committed mental state...at least he is not.

He replies that he is only going for a beer and you get butterflies...as if what is wrong with you!

The problem is that in his mind HE is not married anymore and you are... He is stringing you along, with all your hopes to reconcile and continue your life together, with talk of 'not knowing what he wants'. You are RIGHT...he does know what he wants and he is telling you...he wants his freedom, wants to date, wants you to not get butterflies and doesn't want to answer to you. But he still likes having you around.

You are still trying to get him to see your POV as Jana said she has done in the past. You are still trying to be understanding and get him to see what he is losing. Problem is, he hasn't lost anything yet.... he has actually gained. He still has you, but he has his own place, his space when he wants it, his freedom in the sense that he doesn't owe you explanations, and the ability to date if he wants (according to him). He is getting exactly what HE wants.

Faithful, what do YOU want? Why are you selling yourself short? Why do you think sticking around, doing the same thing you have been doing now for almost a year will yield a different result? Why would he change what he is doing? Right now he is living exactly how he wants....

You do need to start thinking about you. You are valuable. Your love and affection, your caring and companionship are worth something. Stop giving them away freely. Stop giving them away with out getting what YOU want. You are selling yourself short.

Stop asking him about him going out for beers and you getting nervous. Think of it this way, even if you tell him your nervous about it and you ask for verbal reassurance that he won't hook up, he still CAN. The truth is that all of us CAN at anytime regardless of what we promise or what comes out of our mouths. The real yardstick that will measure whether a person will or won't hook up is their ACTIONS.

He is not acting like a stand up guy right now. What you are asking for are words and those words mean nothing because the actions aren't backing up what is coming out of his mouth.

Someone once told me to watch my WH and to turn off the sound. It should be like a silent movie. What can you infer from his actions?

You will have your answer.

In the meantime, start building yourself up. Self talk how fabulous you are and that you DO deserve better. Remind yourself often that he is not doing what you want for you right now. Start doing things that you enjoy to do, with friends or alone. Find a new interest. Go out for beers with your friends or dinner. Stop caring what he is doing because as I pointed out it does not matter right now what he is saying. Stop selling yourself short.

Commit to yourself that you stop spending time with him RIGHT NOW unless he makes dramatic changes. Not even when he SAYS he will change, only when he starts actions to show he's changing. It's in the doing. This is the beginning of an exit plan. You shouldn't even tell him your thoughts. Just do it. Start today.

When you get stronger, you will be able to set a time limit for yourself. I will wait one month, until its one year, etc... It does not happen overnight, but it does happen. Start with changing your thinking...

We are all here for you! I sure hope you don't see this as a 2x4. It is not intended that way. (((Faithful)))

I must be the problem. The marriage must be the problem...

You are Not the problem. He is 100% the problem. Please stop crying to him, he does not respect you. This will crush your soul.

Marriage is not a game. There is not room for sparring matches with slipshod logic...Secrecy and lies by omission... dating ?!?

I keep thinking how he will be everything he is not to me.

Faithful, he will not suddenly morph into some terrific guy. He has always been a douche'.

With your love he has been polished into a KISA. Because you know in your heart you deserve the beautiful shining knight. Sadly the patina is rusting and waring thin, now you see him as he really is...a lower muppet...And he knows the jig is up!

He has shown you and told you who he really is...believe him.

As you can see he does nothing to improve himself, see the error in his ways...Telling his WIFE that he wants to DATE while being married is your first clue.

Being the father to your kids will not change. Co-parenting with your lower muppet will be tricky. But once you are fully detached from him the family judge will insist he stay on the straight and narrow. The courts don't do sneaky and punish delusional liars.

Detaching is painful. It seems like you are giving up. It will take some time for your heart to catch up with your head. Your are just making room in your heart to love yourself.

Put yourself first Faithful. This is not selfish, it is self preservation. Please stop crying to him, he does not respect you. Love yourself enough to see this man is killing your spirit. Deliberately.

You cannot stop him from pretending that he's a bachelor. But you can begin to heal by detaching. Kids and finances...180 baby!

FWL,

Please go back and re-read everything that JanaGreen wrote.

Maybe I am not communicating properly to him

.

Your communicating just fine. You aren't getting the answer you want. His ACTION is the only thing that matters, and from what I can see, he isn't giving you anything of value.

This sucks!!! It isn't fair. Trust me when I say that you will not be missing anything. He will not treat anyone any different then he is treating you. He is broken. This isn't about you and how you communicate, or what you've done. It is about him and how he will not work through his own $hit.

Look into push/pull relationships. You don't have to participate in it. Please stop listening to his words. Only look at his actions because they really are the only thing that matter at this point. He hasn't built any trust in his words.

(((FWL)))

You said, "Maybe I am not communicating properly to him."

Faithful, it's not you. I know that is so hard to grasp. You seem to be a very good-hearted person who wants to see the good in the man you married and spent so much time loving. I know how hard it is to really get that the man you want him to be and the man you thought he could be is not the man he is.

He *knows* he is hurting you. He knows what he is doing. He is happily pursuing what he wants while watching you suffer by choice. He wants to hurt you if it means he can get what he wants. Bottom line is that the only happiness that matters to him is his own. THAT is the type of "man" he really is. It's not that he doesn't get it, he is just not on your side.

(((Faithful))) I hope you can soon see that you deserve better.

I REALLY needed to hear all this today and everything you all say is so true and I do see it, I really do. I just get scared and scared of what I don't know.

I am fine without him, really I do. It is almost like a quest for me now (pretty sick huh) to make him see the light! Do we all get like this? I mean its been 4 years and I am still trying to help him be a better person and man. I know I can't change him but I think I was trying to be a good influence on him with how to treat people and mostly treat me. Maybe I have become a mother figure.. Oh fuck me... that is not what I want. I am his comfort and safe place. Shit!

He is to blame for his actions and A but I am to blame for being so understanding, loving, turning the other cheek, showing him I stand by him thru everything, SO YOU ARE ALL RIGHT! He has never had to be without me 100%.

Am I the only stupid BS that has hung on this long? Thinking it will change that he would have an awaking?

I have done counseling, and was told that I need to stop protecting him and let him learn his lessons. That I am his saftey net when things get rough and his punching bag when he wants to act out. Was told that I my head was on straight and I thought logically, but I was beat down emotionally. We made goals and I reached them, I made alot of progress of letting go of my unicorn fairy marriage. But, now I am struggling to let the facade of what I had as a man, partner and bestfriend. I urn for that man and I know in my heart he is never coming back but I thought we could be better and healthier if we went to counseling together, learned how to communicate way better, learned to be in love again. He is not willing.

I do focus on me, I do things alot by myself. I am independent and being alone does not bother me.. it is the rejection that is bothering me so much. But, I also know that I am putting myself here and that pisses me off also. I know I have the strength after the hell I went through. And maybe I am waiting for the other shoe to drop so I have an excuse also.

I know none of this is making sense to you all right now but it does to me the more I write it out.

I think I am just as conflicted right now. On one hand I want this marriage so bad but I want it to be both of us in and working to get healthy, I want a H that loves and adores me. On the other hand I am scared as hell if that were to happen because I am scared that he will do great and it will happen again or if I make him made he will reject me and have a another A.

Its all because I don't feel safe. If I felt safe I don't think I would feel this way.

IS any of this making sense?

I know what has to happen and I know I will be the one to do it completely. I always have been that one. Urrgghhh....

Its like you know what you need to do but you feel stuck to make that plunge to see if it will be there or not.

I am going to pull back lot from him to start with. I have to. When I am by myself I think clearier. I am not full of emotions or looking at him full of neediness for his love. I do get stronger when apart.

Sorry to ramble...

The other thing, is I know he is not about us or the marriage. I know he is stringing me alot and I am/was accepting the crumbs. I know he knows what he is doing also. No one is that stupid to think that it doesn't hurt another person.

I know he doesn't think of me the way that he should and he thinks of himself first. I know he feels entitled to do whatever he wants. I know he is most likely a NPD. I know all of this and what you are all saying.

IT IS THE REJECTION it has to be. I feel so rejected. Like I was nothing but his play toy for 4 years and I am struggling to try to understand why I did that... Need to talk to my counselor again I think.

Is being rejected about losing control over what you want to happen? Or is it feeling thrown away like your not worth the fight?

I really think its I am hitting it on the head here for myself.

Without you all I would be sitting here today, spinning my wheels and I am not. So thank you SI family.

I did this same exact dance for way longer than I care to admit.

Now I can't imagine why I was so scared of giving up the few crumbs he fed me--I was afraid of starving, I guess.

But, truth is, I was starving anyway.

Now I feed myself--my own worth, my own value, my own validation--and I am quite comfortably full.

Guess who begs for my crumbs now, 2.5 years later? yep. XWS. But, I don't have any to spare.

Respect yourself in all ways. Do not compromise your standards. This is the only recipe for happiness. Period. And it has nothing to do with what anyone else is doing.

Hugs.

Life is too short to live on crumbs.

Hugs

Waitingtosee,

That is wonderful. How long did you do the dance?

So it took him 2.5 yrs after your divorce to see what you meant to him?

Glad you don't give him crumbs..

he will be everything he is not to me

No, he will NOT FWL. He can't be anything other than what he is right now b/c he has done nothing to become anything different.

You are strong. You are worth so much more than the shit he is handing you.

Thru all of my shit my FWH would spout "this isn't gonna work, we should just call it quits" too many times to count. The problem? He was waiting for ME to file, so he could convince himself that he had done all HE could, but alas, S2S just didn't want it When we were separated he did nothing to move towards D. I was in a state of complete shock, and was the poster child for "doormat". Oh yeah, and he thought that after 40 YRS, that he could start looking for "dates" in the 6 weeks of separation. He now gets that I will NEVER forgive that one!!

Don't take his crumbs, sweetie. YOU can make it. Him? it's doubtful.

Sending you strength to stay on YOUR path.

[This message edited by still2suspicious at 1:28 PM, July 11th (Thursday)]

It is almost like a quest for me now (pretty sick huh) to make him see the light! Do we all get like this?

Yes! Well, it was true for me anyway. And my counselor actually kept telling me, after I'd pour out my heart to her, "Yes! Tell him that." And I would say, um, I did. And he looked at me like I was crazy/rolled his eyes/did some other thing to hurt me. She told me that she kept thinking if I could just find the right way to tell him, he'd get it. Do you see why I did better after I stopped going to her? Because there ARE no magic words to make them get it. I'm pretty good with words (despite some of the rambling I do here). I was convinced that if I just said the right words in the right tone at the right time with the right expression on my face, he'd understand. But you see - it wasn't about me and it is not about you. It's about HIM. And until he's ready to listen, you might as well find a nice wall and talk to it instead. It would do just as much good and the wall would not roll its eyes at you (if it does, RUN ).

I smile sadly to myself when I see the posts that imply that BS are healthy strong people, because in some cases we aren't. Speaking for myself, I was just as broken as my WH. But I wasn't looking for validation from other people; I was looking for validation from HIM. I was depending entirely on him for my self-esteem and my self-image. How the marriage went, is how I went. That's why I so desperately needed him to GET it. I needed his validation for my feelings. That's why I would so passionately argue for the right to feel the way I felt when I was upset. I was so dependent on him. It's not healthy just like cheating isn't healthy. It's a different way to be broken.

That's why you have to detach to get out of this cycle. You have to depend on YOU for your self-esteem and validation. Because if you depend on him - well it's like going to an empty water cooler and continually trying to get a drink. It's just not going to work. He's just not going to give you what you need. YOU are the only person you can depend on 100% right now. So lean on you.

There's a post in Wayward by UncertainOne - called something to the effect of "Maybe It's Rejection?" I think it might be worth a read.

(((((HUGS)))))

Wow...I feel I am in a similar place but it's only been a week since NC and 3 months since all of this disaster began.

Like you I overprotected him through 18 years and buffered him from the world.

I am done with that and am trying to "practice it daily".

Why would he want to choose one way or another when he's floating along just fine the way he is? Even if he's not currently in an A.

My WS is fence sitting and freaking out that he's going to lose me (and OW) and be alone.

Dude. You did this.

I applaud you for giving this a year of patience.

At what point do you...and I ...owe ourselves the reality check we have so often tried to force upon them?

I don't intend to waste a year on him. I refuse.

Yes, that means I don't get "my perfect life" but you know what, it wasn't perfect before. I was kidding myself that it was-no marriage or life ever is. And looking at him from a distance I can see all the things that he may never have the ability to be to me. Things I want, things I need in a partner.

He may not be in an A right now, but he's certainly still cheating. Cheating you out of the release to move on and have what you desire with someone who can provide it.

I keep remembering what my MC told me yesterday when I stated how much WS has waffled... "You have a choice too."

You do. I do. (The irony of those 2 words is not lost on me.)

(((HUGS)))

Is being rejected about losing control over what you want to happen? Or is it feeling thrown away like your not worth the fight?

Rejection is a bitch. It hurts like hell.

But why are you trying to build a bridge to an unremorseful cheater? Burning down that bridge to hell will help stanch those feelings of unworthiness.

As you detach you will realize that you are the prize (and have always been!), not him.

He is broken, damaged goods. You cannot fix him, only he can do that. So yes, you will have to relinquish your imagined 'control'.

Concentrate on what you can control, like your own well being. Imagine what that looks like in your minds eye.

It seems like he is rejecting you but really he is rejecting reality...and to him, you represent that.

Sorry Faithful, you make too much sense...you are too honest and true! LOL!!!

It seems like he is rejecting you but really he is rejecting reality...and to him, you represent that.

That's deep.

GTH-

Sorry Faithful, you make too much sense...you are too honest and true! LOL!!!

sorry, I am just a woman who was taught to be honest with feelings and be true. See I can give great advice and see inside other people relationships. Just not my own. KWIM?

I read your profile and WOW... 6 years.. So you know what I went thru also.

It is the rejection I feel from him. But you are correct in the rejection of himself.

Jana-

Do you see why I did better after I stopped going to her?

Can we just say to your old therapist? Who does that?

I am so glad you understood what I was saying when I said a quest. I know I am broken also, shit who would not be going through this shitstorm for so long, I must be if I am taking this long to get out of it. And put up with the shit burger w/no fries he is trying to feed me.

What amazes me is that alot of WH's don't file for D they wait for us to do it.

Damn, all what I am saying must sound like a broken recorded of the WH and BS.

I am going to be okay. I just purged so much out today that I want to say to him that I cant because as Jana and I both say its like talking to a wall.. And yes Jana I would be running if the wall talked back...

All of this is very hard and I have such mix emotions. But, I know what I have to do and that starts with me.

GTH - are you happy now with your fwh?

I keep reading all the comments on here and they are all sinking in. I hear all of you loud and clear. Sometimes we just need that assurance that we will be okay and that we can do this. And also to let us know when we are getting pissy little crumbs and to take of the rose colored glasses and look in the mirror and rememeber who we are and what our own selfworth is.

[This message edited by Faithful w/Love at 2:01 PM, July 11th (Thursday)]

I smile sadly to myself when I see the posts that imply that BS are healthy strong people, because in some cases we aren't. Speaking for myself, I was just as broken as my WH. But I wasn't looking for validation from other people I was looking for validation from HIM. I was depending entirely on him for my self-esteem and my self-image. How the marriage went, is how I went. That's why I so desperately needed him to GET it. I needed his validation for my feelings. That's why I would so passionately argue for the right to feel the way I felt when I was upset. I was so dependent on him. It's not healthy just like cheating isn't healthy. It's a different way to be broken.

Jana, I absolutely love this paragraph. So much truth here!