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Quick overview. Married 10 years. Together 17. WW had a 7 month DEEP EA and PA. D-day was almost 2 months ago. Since d-day, (They got caught. didn't come clean on their own) she would never commit to the written NC agreement or to full NC. She did not call or see him but would only verbally commit and said that she felt that at some point she needed closure and that she could not guarantee that she would not have contact with him ever again. We separated on d-day and haven't been living together since so I have no way to know for sure, but I do believe her. She called me the other night to tell me AP called her on Saturday. She said he was on speaker phone with his wife and he told her it was done and they can't do this anymore. She said she asked if she was on speaker and he said yes and her reply was "Wow. that's messed up. I didn't think it would go down this way. I have nothing to say"

And that's it. I was FURIOUS. First she hid her contact with him for 5 days, then tells me this. I said, you have been telling me for 6 weeks that you needed "closure" and you had the opportunity to say what you needed to say and you chose that?" She said she felt it was immature to have his wife on speaker phone and she would not do it that way. I was again SO Angry. She still is holding firm to "I can't promise you no contact with him in the future. Too much happened for me to not have closure at some point and we (her and I)wont be able to heal if that doesn't happen"

We have our first appointment of MC next week. I freaked out on her and told her to cancel it and that we are done. We have already planned to file for divorce and then go to MC to see if we have anything to save. If not, the D is already in progress. If so we take it from there. But now that she is being such a typical Wayward with her having to get closure, I can't handle it. NC is the most basic requirement for me. If she can't get over herself enough to commit to this, then I have to be done. I even offered her this. I said, "Prepare what you need to say to him and write it all down. Then you can call him, with me in the room on speakerphone and tell him what you need to tell him"

She said that was childish and she wouldn't do that. I laughed in her face. How the fuck does she expect that she gets to do this on her terms? Some fucking private meeting with him to cry on his shoulder? No way. Since we can't agree on this, I am not even wanting to go to MC. She keeps saying we should go and ask the MC what is the best way to handle this. I said no. I don't need an MC to decide what is best in this situation. If is either fully commit to NC forever with AP or I am done. End of story.

What do you all think of this? Am I being to crazy about this? What happened in your situation? I am having such a hard time with this.

You are exactly right. Her unwillingness to go NC with her AP says she is still putting him and herself over you and the marriage. Most WS's go NC exactly like her AP. It is not immature. Undoubtably he is trying to save his marriage and she is still trying to contact him for more closure, which will only hurt his BS. She is the one being immature and selfish. She is undoubtably still in the fog and I think you should proceed with the D. I know that is hard to hear and not what you want, but you know it's what is best for you in the long run unless she pulls her head out of her ass now. I am so sorry for your pain. (((HUGS)))

NC, while often stated as a dealbreaker, is often broken, especially in the beginning - but typically in secret I should think.

The idea that she is telling you she won't commit to it, even after he has committed to NC in order to save his M... yikes, that isn't good.

I guess it comes down to how much you buy into "the fog" and how tolerant you are for your WS to be lost in it, pining after someone else.

My take would be to file, stay NC/180 with your WW. I wouldn't be going to MC either, as there are still three people in your M. See if she wakes up, then, see if you care.

If you stay with her, she'll do it again. She obviously doesn't care about anybody but herself. My advice would be to file for divorce and not look back.

I don't think you are being crazy at all. How and why would you live with this constant specter of "today might be the day she seeks 'closure'"? It's crazy making. I told x to call and end it. He said he couldn't do that, he was afraid that her husband would beat her up if he found out (yes, he tried to sell me the lie that her h was violent!). I just got up and walked out of the room. He chose her over me. Eventually, he did call and "end" it. But, I later found out, he maintained contact.

If she's not choosing you (ie, cutting off all contact-permanently-with her affair partner, full disclosure and accountability at all times and in all forms of communication), she's choosing him. I don't mean to be harsh, but unless you agree to an open relationship, there's no room for this other man in a marriage.

If you stay with her, she'll do it again. She obviously doesn't care about anybody but herself. My advice would be to file for divorce and not look back.

^^^This...your initial reactions are RIGHT! Go with your gut and file. Your WW is not even close to being remorseful. You are NOT being CRAZY and as much as it sucks you should go NC with your WW, implement the 180 asap, detach, and file for D. Your WW may or may not pull her head out of her ass but you can't control her or make her "see the light". Focus on you completely and detach, she detached from you long ago before she started the A. When you detach you put yourself on a level playing field. If she wants to build a new M with you then she needs to do the work on herself and show you concrete actions and by detaching you give your self some space to make rationale decisions. IMO in order to save your M you must be willing to let it go.

If she is going to wake up filing and showing her that you are serious may do that. If it doesn't she was not going to wake up anyway and you are saving yourself many months or years of additional pain. Focus on you and your own healing since it's the only thing you can control. This shit sucks hard but you will get through it and you only stay in it for as long as you choose to stay in it. I wish you the best.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 10:52 AM, July 19th (Friday)]

We have our first appointment of MC next week. I freaked out on her and told her to cancel it and that we are done. We have already planned to file for divorce and then go to MC to see if we have anything to save. If not, the

D is already in progress. If so we take it from there. But now that she is being such a typical Wayward with her having to get closure, I can't handle it. NC is the most basic requirement for me. If she can't get over herself enough to commit to this, then I have to be done.

^^^^^This. No more contact. She knows your requirement. No amount of begging or pleading will get her to change her mind. This is something she has to want to do. Obviously she values that relationship more than she does yours.

Strength

...she could not guarantee that she would not have contact with him ever again.

I would think this tells you everything you need to know! No remorse, no commitment to repair your M, nothing but continued selfishness at your expense. That makes you her constant Plan B if you allow it.

My WH and I were "talking" about the future of our M a month ago, and the spectre of R was in the background of that discussion. I was at least willing to consider the possibility, but then he landed the bombshell and he could not (would not) commit to not having another affair while we were separated (he is currently in another state). I told him that was undeniably one of the most selfish disrespectful things one spouse could possibly tell another spouse, and it was a deal breaker. THAT told me everything I needed to know and I was not willing to R only to wonder when I was going to find out about yet another A.

Only you can decide when you have had enough, but it still sounds like she has her head up her ass and you should proceed with the D...

you are definitely not crazy.

you or him, no other way.

no sense in mc if she will not maintain nc.

your right, not having nc is and should be a deal breaker.

I'm sorry she is putting you through this.

My wh told me there had been nc with his ap and i later found out there had been.

such selfish, selfish people!

so much was not adding up....my ww said that if i contacted APs wife or her BFF it was over. of course i saw a huge red flag in this. coupled with what i know from my first post, none of this added up. i certainly have become a better detective in the aftermath.

i called APs wifes BFF and talked with her for over an hour. it is bad. so bad. WW took her affair underground. she and AP had a plan since d-day. they were planning on leaving their spouses for each other. the last 2 months since d-day have all been a lie. it was an exit affair. my WW has been playing me for a fool. Acting remorseful and putting on a good show, but the whole time, still seeing AP and planning their escape. thing is, her AP had a revalation. He realized it was all BS and fake and decided to try to make his marriage work. it seemed crazy that after 2 months he would call and say "they cant do this anymore" if it was over, then why would those terms be used? WW basically told me she was lying by telling me these things and i confirmed she was. wow. she is in SO deep that she continues to lie and manipulate. today i plan to out her further to her sister and parents in hopes that they can get her the help she needs. there is no chance for us now. no hope for R. she is so fucked its not even funny. it seems like it couldnt get worse and it does.........

Balls to the wall Bro. No way a person can R with a liar. Just cant be done. Like my XWW yours don't get it and probably never will. Now that OM has dumped her she will turn her anger on you. I know that sounds kind of silly. But that's how it goes. Be prepared for the accusations and rewriting of M history. She is gonna paint you as an evil MF'er. Trust me I've been there. Best thing to do is expose early to all. Get the word out before she starts to spin her tales. All you gotta do is find the biggest gossip in her social circle and plant the truth. The gossip will do the work for you. Get prepared for the fight that's coming. She is going to try to fuck you over. Keep in mind that D is war. Take no prisoners and shoe no quarter. Protect yourself and kids of you have any. Try and anticipate her every move and counter hard. Its probably gonna cost you a few bucks. But the law is the law. Don't be an asshole like me who tried to extract my pound of flesh via the D. All that did was cost me money in attorneys fees. And don't be in a rush to settle unless its a favorable offer to you. Think with your brain and not your heart. Leave revenge to the man upstairs. Trust me they shoot themselves in the foot if you let them. Hang tough and don't take no shit. Remember the truth shall set you free. Make sure its out there for all to hear. Good luck Bro.

Things have turned a corner. so much has happened in the last 72 hours, it will make your head spin.

WW came out of the fog. The affair ended for real. Finally. i could actually "see" my wife again for the first time in almost a year. It is surreal. She gave up everything. Full transparency, all passwords, cell phone access etc. She changed her phone number and is finally remorseful. I can tell because she is in SO much pain. I have seen and felt it.

Next, we have me. WTF? I was finally able to admit to myself that i had an affair too. in the aftermath of d-day 1, i took comfort in a friend. She was a new friend and the first time hung out was at a music festival in mid June. we kissed and she gave me a BJ. i tried to justify it and then talked to her and we decided we could just be friends. Wayward thinking. Even though my wife and i are seperated, i comprised my own integrity. About 2 weeks later another BJ, but i justified it away and lied to myself. Then another week or so later, we slept together. I was a mess. I decided to end it with her and come clean to my wife. Problem is I didnt come all the way clean. i told her we had sex but up till that point we were just friends. That was a lie. i just didn't want to admit it to myself. Friends do do the things we did.The whole thing lasted about 6 weeks and during this time i never lied about seeing her, i just lied about what we did.

So we fast forward to Monday. WW is finally out of fog and willing to look at everything. I drew a line in the sand and said we were to D and I decided to 180. Afterall, look what she did? Problem is, i was still lying too. She called me in the early morning crying, vomiting and in the worst shape shes been in. I answered. I said NC, but in our hearts we do truly love each other and I knew i was not being authentic. I offered her the gift of me. I told her i would be here for her today and only today to try to help her. After all, i was way ahead in my healing. i had 2 months of progress. For some reason a sense of peace overcame me and i was saying all the right things and soothing the one who hurt me! It took a lot of strength and I was proud of myself. Well we took full advantage, talked on the phone for 5 hours, then saw each other and continued to talk for 7 more hours. The next day we did a repeat. We spent 24 hours covering everything. I came completly clean about my affair and officially labeled it as an affair. She had a lot of anger. Mostly do the hypocricy. During the 2 months since d-day 1, I pounded on her relentlessly about transparency and honesty because i was feeling like she wasnt being that way. My gut was right as the affair continued, but she did tell me a lot. A whole lot. Maybe more than i wanted to know or should know, my obsessive self asked hundreds of questions and based on her answers i knew she was telling the truth about the details of the affair. It was brutal.

So here we are. She and I talked more in the past 48 hours than we have in a year. We feel like we did a intensive marriage retreat on our own or like it was almost equivilant to 3 months of MC. It was emotionally overwhelming. We shared so much and expressed so much it was like HB for the soul. We talked about our love for each other and the beautiful life we once had. We discussed R, but we were also very realistic in that we have a shitload of problems. 2 affairs, issues with wanting/ not wanting kids, pre-marital problems, mind movies, trust issues. the list could on. We decided to start MC ASAP, but take the option of R off the table initially. We decided it was best to start with all we have and try to make a decision if we can even see a path to R. Crazy shit, right?

The other hugely crazy thing, is that i think my affair was a blessing in diquise. I hate to even call it that because it makes it a good thing, but I think me doing that gave me the ability to have enough empathy for my WW to see past some of her A bullshit and gave me a chance to even "see" her again. That gave us a chance. Its a huge, hard road and we might not make it, but if I hadnt done what i did, i know i would have filed for D and never looked back.

Wow, good luck. I hope all works out for your both.