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At my last IC appt. I talked alot about self protection, expressing needs.

I also asked if Ic saw remorse in h. Very little.

Reaffirmed my feelings and calmed me fear about being too demanding.

I also brought up something about there being something inherently wrong inside him. Are people disposable to him?

Reply - I cannot confirm or deny. (he is h's Ic also)

I asked - if I were your daughter what would you tell me?

reply - If you were my daugter I would speak volumes to you, but silence says alot.

I am not saying to throw in the towel yet, but keep pushing, asking for what you need, it will become clear by his actions.

H does not seem to understand that I need proof of who he is. Actions, words, remorse before I can even begin to let down my guard.

He keeps pushing me to be more giving. Today he told me he is not feeling safe with me because he feels I am not totally convinced this is going to work.

I told him I want it to, but I don't feel safe. I need more from him.

I am tired of asking for what I need. I have been so clear, so gently clear, so open to receiving.

It is on him now. He either makes the effort or he doesn't.

The only thing I control is how I respond.

I keep wondering, is it still just being defensive, not facing himself or is he just not capable of loving, of feeling empathy?

I am getting worn out by this. I keep thinking I have to just give up. Sometimes having hope hurts.

I'm not sure how to respond, as it seems you have all the pieces. So, I'll try putting them to you in a different fashion.

if Ic saw remorse in h. Very little.

Are people disposable to him?

I cannot confirm or deny.

If you were my daugter I would speak volumes to you, but silence says alot.

it will become clear by his actions.

Just connecting the dots here would say to me that your IC seems to be a pretty smart cookie. He/she seems to be telling you that you are dealing with NPD, (See the thread in I Can Relate) but cannot come right out and say it due to being WH's IC also. IC also seems to understand that, regardless of what you are told, you need to *see* it for yourself.

He keeps pushing me to be more giving. Today he told me he is not feeling safe with me because he feels I am not totally convinced this is going to work.

This is what you are seeing.

is he just not capable of loving, of feeling empathy?

This is what your IC is hinting at and what you are feeling.

is it still just being defensive, not facing himself

This is what you are hoping.

Sometimes having hope hurts.

Yes it does, especially when it is someone we believed in crushing that hope.

I revert back to "When someone shows you who they are, believe them."

Sorry

Strength

I am seeing this and I think that I just don't want to believe it.

This morning he said that he was noticing that I was isolating myself from others.

I thought he was expressing concern for me. I agreed, said that I think I am just so depressed and it is hard to reach out and do what is healthy, hard to find the energy. I agreed that I had to make the effort.

Before I even realized what was happening the conversation turned around to how I was being so inconsiderate to his family by cutting myself off from them, how I used them when I needed them and then just rejected them. How wrong I was for doing that,after all they are his family, how could I be so inconsiderate.

It wasn't about how I was struggling it was about him, again.

H has also told me recently that his abuse towards me is just the pattern of his life. It wasn't me, he has been abusive to every woman he has ever been involved with.

He says he was always attracted to gentle personalities and abused them over time.

They all left him, no relationship lasted more than a couple of years. Until me.

He said he just put up the wall of indifference and moved on.

This terrifies me.

I keep looking at him and wondering, who the hell are you?

I realize that I attributed positive qualities to him that he just does not possess. I always read much more into the little that he expressed than was actually there.

I believed what he showed me in the early years and thought the abuse was the aberration. Now I think the kindness was the aberration, the lure, the abuse is his comfort zone.

I read about BPD and NPD this morning, I have been up since 4am. Too much fits.

My therapist is a very wise man, I don't know how I would untangle all of this without him.

I understand I was the perfect candidate for this.

Low expectations, low self esteem, codependent, way way way too forgiving (cheap forgiveness).

I think I am finally seeing myself clearly which allows me to see him clearly.

I keep having this thought when I hear him talk. I don't like who you are.

I keep giving the benefit of the doubt, making excuses. He is ashamed of himself, he is having trouble facing what he has done, he is struggling with guilt, it is hard for him to face the pain he has caused, he is in pain.

I don't think any of that is true. I think what he is struggling with is that I am not getting over this and giving him what he wants. I reallly don't think he is capable of feeling empathy or remorse, you would have to care to feel that. He only cares for himself.

No wonder I am so hurt, tired and depressed. I am in this battle alone. I am still suffering injuries, I am not being to sensitive, too demanding. I am feeling the truth, just haven't been facing it.

My heart feels the truth but my brain hasn't caught up.

This is horrific, it was all a lie, everything.

To him, I am disposable, I am just an extra in his show.

Not a person, I just filled a space for a while.

He is sooo very wrong, and he will never know what he threw away because he doesn't have the capacity, he has a defect.

I feel sorry for him, for the life that he has ahead of him.

At least your eyes are open now.

(((cantaccept))) you have so much strength. Stay strong, and you will get through this. He has shown you who he is and you now realize you deserve better. This is something to hold onto and follow.

Anyone have personal experience with this?

Books that may help me to believe this is real?

Experience dealing with this after an a?

Just wondering if the lack of remorse is more common with a personality disorder.

The blameshifting, he has always done that over the most insignificant event. Such as, "are you ok?" Very angry inappropriate response to such an innocent question.

Just trying to make sense, make sure that I am not over dramatizing.

I know that I should trust my gut, I am really rather intelligent. I am just so new to seeing me that this almost seems too much.

Maybe I am looking for reasons to doubt because the truth hurts too much.

I hate all of this, this whole f#@&ing mess.

Are NPDs prone to physical retaliation?

He did hurt me once, since dday when I wouldn't back down. Probably the first time I ever stood up to him and expressed anger. Looking back I really didn't say anything that bad considering what he has done. I yelled, "where is your soulmate now a&&hole?!!!

He grabbed me shook me repeatedly and threw me down on the floor. It was scary. I was covered with bruises. He never apologized, just said that we could never go there again. I never went there, I never hit or physically hurt him. This is sick. What the hell am I thinking?????

Can't accept.

Don't feel unsettled by the IC conversation use the comments for your own well being. I can certainly understand you want things to be different.

You sound very much like me. I had to come to a point that I would not accept the disrespect and bad behavior. No discussion, no excuses, and no justification. It is not acceptable. It is not your fault. He chooses to make bad decisions. Your choice is to make good decisions for yourself.

Now a big hug from someone who understands....me.

The hardest part is if this is all true. If what I think I am seeing is real, there is no hope. All this pain will never have a happy ending.

Well that is not quite right, the ending won't be what I wish for now but may turn out to be better than I ever imagined.

THis is just hard, too hard.

I apologize to myself, to the self that I failed to protect, to the self that I never appreciated.

He keeps pushing me to be more giving. Today he told me he is not feeling safe with me because he feels I am not totally convinced this is going to work.

^^Sorry, but this shit drives me nuts.

Remind him of who had the affair...not you.

Stop worrying about his needs and insist that he concentrate on yours. If he is unwilling to make the effort tell him to leave.

I have been so clear, so gently clear, so open to receiving

^^^Not working? change is needed...180 him.

Can't accept.

Two books that my IC recommended

Did more for me than anything. In fact one she loaned me, and I subsequently purchased my own copy to highlight.

I brought it with me and read some lines that could have written just for me. Once I finished, I looked up from the book and she saw I got it.

The first...

"When your lover is a liar". By Susa Forward, Ph.D. Healing the wounds of deception and betrayal .

The second....

"Women who love too much" by robin Norwood. When you keep wishing and hoping he'll change

If you can only manage one the first one is the best. I have read so many books on Boundaries, infidelity you name it. But trust me the first one kicked my butt.

Be ever so kind to yourself.

Has your H signed a release that allows your IC to talk with you about his therapy?

If he did, I don't see why she didn't answer all your questions with straight answers, although 'I don't know' could be a straight answer.

If he didn't, I don't see why she told you what she did say, because she seems to have violated confidentiality here, which is an indication to me that she's not capable of being IC to both of you - not many C's can be IC to both partners in a relationship in conflict.

In any case, if he didn't sign a release, perhaps he should. That way you can expect straight answers to virtually any Q.

*****************************

Perhaps being 'gently clear' with your H has been a mistake. If you haven't sat down with him and laid out your requirements in no uncertain terms, he may think you want R at any cost.

I suggest another sit down. Part of thet conversation can - and even should - include a statement that you're going to observe him for at least n months before you commit to R, 'cause you're not going to commit unless you're sure he's all in.

Be crystal clear. Don't mince words. Tell him you're done unless he meets observable requirements (NC, transparency, honesty, IC, MC, plus whatever else you want, within reason of course).

If you've already done that, it sounds like it's time to implement consequences....

[This message edited by sisoon at 8:14 AM, July 21st (Sunday)]