SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm gonna dip my toe out into the water here and say that, IMO, timing is everything. Blameshifting to me depends a lot on how recent the DDAY is...maybe it shouldn't but I think that it does. Listen, if I discover my wife is cheating TODAY, and the first things out of her mouth are, "Well, It happened because [x, y, or z]..." That's blameshifting. It is a response crafted with the INTENTION of shifting the blame from the person who made the choice to cheat to the pre-A (or whenever) actions of the BS. I don't think that it's the same thing as a WS who's further along in the healing process and openly pondering why they felt a certain way, which may have led them to make bad choices, etc.

Even in the most egregious examples I can think of, i.e. physical/sexual violence, the WS had a choice to leave (or divorce, whatever) prior to the cheating. The cheating certainly does not raise the BS in those (or any, really) situations to sainthood. Like UO said, many (I'd reckon most) marriages are formed between two inherently flawed people...two people with all sorts of weird issues that affect their decision making processes in a variety of ways, both good or bad. But when there aren't those types of violations of the other person that rise to the same level as infidelity (or even beyond it), I don't think it's a stretch to think that a BS is not in any kind of mental situation to be dressed down for past wrongs in light of what's just come out. Post-A, EVERYTHING is viewed through the a lenses tainted by the A.

Another problem with trying to take a BS to task for all their various faults, flaws and missteps in the wake of an affair is that the WS is essentially telling the BS, "Hey, here's all the things you did wrong....and now I've made you pay for them by screwing someone else." This may be the only time where words count more than actions. Cool. If a WS wants to point to all the things that pissed them off that the BS did prior to the A, and why they felt X, Y, and Z, and that's why their mental state was such-and-such, and made them vulnerable to having an affair....then that's fine....as long as things are now square, and the BS doesn't ever have to hear about their past transgressions. Ever. Again. Because if *I* bring up the affair, and *you* bring up my pre-A actions, you're telling me that because I did this, you did that. You've dictated that that's the way marriage works, we make each other pay for our fuckups. That doesn't mean I don't need to work on my personal faults going forward, it just means that I'm done hearing about the ones from the past. If your feelings are still bruised from that time I forgot your birthday, too damn bad. Deal with it. You extracted your pound of flesh, and it didn't work out for you....that's not my fault.

Here is the thing. I have never once said that what Hlessons did in our M was the reason for what I did. It wasn't. Bottom line, I feel that his first EA 18 yrs ago was probably a deal breaker for me, and I have spent that amount of time trying to make it not be so. In the process I allowed it to change who I was. I allowed these things, I didn't deal with it straight up. My coping skills were fucked. And I made a fucked up decision out of that and added to an already horrible situation. I caused him pain that I can never take away. It doesn't take away from the fact that my M was screwed up before I ever did that. Trying to deal with what I did, while ignoring what had been going on in my M for 18 yrs I don't think was the healthiest thing for me looking back. Nothing I can do now.

Being honest about what was happening is not blameshifting. It is just being honest. A waywards perspective is not always skewed, I find it interesting that so many BS's find that to be the case. Sometimes it is true, sometimes it isn't.

I'm gonna dip my toe out into the water here and say that, IMO, timing is everything.

Yes it is. I have tried to get that point across. See, this is where the why digging has GOT to be driven by the wayward. The betrayed has their hands full with registering just what the fuck that was that derailed their entire past present and future as they knew it.

To me, it's important to understand that just as asking a wayward how to heal from betrayal is so senseless to some that nazi's and pediphiles get brought in, a betrayeds reaction to a why may not be a valid benchmark when investigating. I can't imagine any reason being acceptable or even not offensive that even hinted of something non self evicerating.

The impetus for this post was collective but Dantoni's thread was the push. He mentions his job in law enforcement and the instant response...blame shifting even though he performed the preamble that's de rigueur. The I know my choices where 100% mine to own.

Of course environment is a stressor. OF COURSE IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE TO CHEAT. Someone that has shit coping skills for the crap that they will be exposed to may have struggled when...well being exposed to them. Acknowledging that doesn't exonerate. Not even close!!!

Wouldn't expect his wife to even entertain that. Not for one minute.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 3:49 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

FacePunched:

But when there aren't those types of violations of the other person that rise to the same level as infidelity (or even beyond it), I don't think it's a stretch to think that a BS is not in any kind of mental situation to be dressed down for past wrongs in light of what's just come out. Post-A, EVERYTHING is viewed through the a lenses tainted by the A.

Yep. Those are the consequences of engaging in what many consider to be the ultimate marital crime, short of physical/sexual abuse. Those orgasms on the side may have been delicious, but they come with an awfully high price tag. Lost credibility being one of the biggest casualties. And that's a problem when trying to address other issues that may have plagued the marriage long before either spouse considered having an affair. The affair, for awhile at least, remains the 800-lb. gorilla in the room.

Those orgasms on the side may have been delicious, but they come with an awfully high price tag. Lost credibility being one of the biggest casualties

Not delicious and not even close. The horror many of the WS's here have experienced isn't a breakdown of credibility. It's a fracturing of the soul. The ultimate betrayal of ourselves.

Everyone is different. Whether someone believes me has never been a real goal of mine. I had myself to answer to and she's a real bitch at letting ANYTHING I could come up with slide. My ex didn't even see my choices as an affair. To this day he hates that I even joined this site as anything but a BS. He's rather proud of his choices and wants the proper credit, after all.

You do realize you have a choice, right Sal? You can evict that gorilla and the person responsible for inviting him to the party. Don't let another's choices change who you are. That, to me, is the ultimate casualty.

You do realize you have a choice, right Sal? You can evict that gorilla and the person responsible for inviting him to the party. Don't let another's choices change who you are. That, to me, is the ultimate casualty.

Yeah, just no good choices UO. Not with kids involved.

It's a fracturing of the soul. The ultimate betrayal of ourselves.

That's painful to read, UO. I think my WW gets that now, and the result is she is in pain every day. It's sad because she is such a beautiful person in so many ways. Even while she was carrying on this way she engaged in a thousand acts of kindness towards me and others. I hate to see it but I've come to the conclusion that the best thing for both of us to do is acknowledge and feel our pain. Because it's not going away anytime soon.

UO, I sincerely hope you have forgiven yourself and are putting the pieces of your soul back together.

BTW, in hindsight I regret the "orgasms" quote. It looks even uglier in a quote box. My apologies to anyone who sees it the same way.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 7:07 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

But when there aren't those types of violations of the other person that rise to the same level as infidelity (or even beyond it), I don't think it's a stretch to think that a BS is not in any kind of mental situation to be dressed down for past wrongs in light of what's just come out. Post-A, EVERYTHING is viewed through the a lenses tainted by the A.

Listen, I've worked like 80 hours this past week on very little sleep... I've read and re-read and re-read this thread... And I'm having a hard time figuring out where the disconnect is.

Those of us WSes that came here desperate- but not really even knowing what we were desperate for, yet- came here for answers. Some of us came here desperate to save our marriages, our BSes, our children, our lives, our own selves... But most of us were desperate. Blameshifting is easy, right? "If you wouldn't have burned dinner, I wouldn't have had to throw you down the stairs." "If you would have had more sex with me, I wouldn't have had to fuck that co-worker." What ever the blameshifting is- it's WAY easier than looking internally.

I had ALL kinds of grievances built up- real ones- not the "you didn't pick up your socks" bullshit. My cheating, gambling, alcoholic, evasive, money-hiding, sex-rejecting husband had done plenty in my marriage to constitute my leaving. I had a field day (for a VERY short time) letting him know all the shit he had done to cause my affair... I had begged for counseling- IC and MC. I had begged for sex. I made budgets that included gambling so that I would be a cool, compromising wife.

I pulled my head out of my ass pretty quickly- and I realized that the person I had given up on and fucked over the most, was me. I also knew that my A absolutely leveled my H. I was cognizant enough to realize that I had to put his intestines back in before we could work on my broken leg. I got it. I get it.

Everybody is different, and I know that. And I also know that my H's actions and attitudes and choices th/o our marriage did not CAUSE my affair. I did a lot of fucking work to figure out what fucked-up processing and the lies I told myself that actually made it ok for me to make those choices.

I agree FacePunched. Timing IS, in fact, everything. However, this:

Cool. If a WS wants to point to all the things that pissed them off that the BS did prior to the A, and why they felt X, Y, and Z, and that's why their mental state was such-and-such, and made them vulnerable to having an affair....then that's fine....as long as things are now square, and the BS doesn't ever have to hear about their past transgressions. Ever. Again.

I can't get on board with...

I think you were being facetious, but I am not sure... Dealing with pre-A issues doesn't mean blame-shifting. My M was on life support before I pulled the plug. I pulled the plug- no doubt. 4 years later, I know that I should have pulled the plug much sooner. I put his intestines back in, but we never got out of life-support status. He is not willing to admit that it was a deal-breaker, and apparently, I'm kind of a pussy and won't uproot my children right now. It is what it is...

All of this has been said, but a WS examining fucked-up shit in the marriage far enough out from d-day not to get a foot up their ass is not blame-shifting. It's an attempt at healing ALL of the wounds that led to our fucked-up choices... Even if some of those wounds happened to be caused within the boundaries of marriage...

ETA: Good LORD! I have the mouth of a sailor sometimes!

[This message edited by trytoforgive at 7:30 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

Grace, you contradict yourself right out of the gate. We were in the same marriage, well actually not at all because he treated me like shit. Ok, so what does that mean? That cheating is the result of abuse? Well, we know that ain't true so guess other things need to be examined, right?

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No, that is not what I meant. What I meant is that his "perception" of our M and the reality were two different things. So we were in the same M, but how he viewed it and how it was, was not the same thing.

If I thought that cheating was the result of abuse, then I should have been the cheater, that is not the case, as you stated.

His misperception about things caused him to treat me bad, to abandon me in many areas, to hurt me mentally and emotionally, not to mention the STD's. He never "hit" me physically, but verbally, etc, yep.

The BS isn't always the holder of the truth at all

very true, but sometimes they are. I KNOW I never cheated on my H, I KNOW I always had his and the M's best interest at heart. I KNOW that I have my foo and wounds from childhood that cause me to take too much crap and that he "got away" with way more than he should have. All those bad things he told himself about me, I KNOW I did not do them.

Some marriages are a grouping of two very hurting flawed individuals.

I would say Most M's are, and sometimes one or both get more hurt and more flaws show up during the M.

Betrayal in life is damn near a guarantee

Yep, I agree, I have not experience any time in my life that did not have a betrayal of one kind or another, I was born in betrayal. I was willing to accept certain betrayals as "life", I felt that was realistic, but the one I tried to have happen, of course happened for the majority of my adult life.

How can a "victim" gently steer a perpetrator towards the truth?

I do not believe they can, nor did I say they could. When I say gently, I mean don't brow beat, don't belittle, not call names, one can point out the truth without being cruel, or mean or vindictive imo. Also, there is no "steering" no one can change anothers perception, no one can cause another to have an epiphany only the individual can do that themselves, but just because I cannot cause another to change, does not mean I do not speak the truth, does not mean I agree with their misperseptions just because I cannot "change" them. Also, not all WS are perpetrators, they may have been at one time though, but each person's experience is different imo.

I read some of these posts and get this image of a long suffering saint that was under a cloud of delusion that all people are good and just made a wrong choice ending up with the under bridge dwelling troll.

This is truth in some cases, but really I do not think a WS is always a troll, some may be, some are just wounded deeply imo.

I was raised in a deeply religious way that told the women to be long suffering, that all things would work for the good, that if your H treated you poorly you must be doing something wrong, so work harder, try harder, be more patient, be more tolerant, eventually you will be treated humanely because you will have "earned" it, so in essence my H was not "wrong" in how he treated me, I was doing something wrong. I created the "troll" under the bridge, this was the brainwashing I grew up with and carried until I was nearly 40 and began to awaken to reality myself.

**hit submit before I was done, cannot quote now, crap! **

I'd think one thing that would need to be looked at would be why would you stay with someone that did that to you.

Yep, I have been on that journey for over 10 years now, the above is part, my foo is part, my history, my life experiences and lack of experience, I led a very small life, in a small box of what was wrong/right, acceptable/not acceptable, etc.

****Bottom line is that healing and becoming a safe person and partner doesn't always equal relying on the victim of our choices to deliver the truth.***

No, it does not, but that does not negate that the BS could have a hand in this, that they could be helpful in this, not to say they HAVE to be or that all BS ARE, but being a BS does not negate that you might be a positive contributor in anothers realization of truth. Just as a WS can contribute in realization of truth for a BS, my H has helped me see many of my wrongly held beliefs as well.

***Their perception may be more than just a tad skewed. ***

it definitely can, of course, but that does not mean it "has" to be.

***I'd be the very LAST person on the face of the planet to be a good choice in helping his "rehabilitation". ***

I believe you, and that is your truth, but not all BS's truth. Also, not all WS need "rehabilitation" imo, some get epiphanies, have deep changes in awareness and perceptions,etc.

I probably spent way too much time and depth on this, when in reality all I was trying to say was these things cannot be painted with a broad brush, there are exceptions to the "rules" imo. I believe in "exceptions", not that I expect them though, I try to be realistic and practice my new perspectives and reality of what life is and how people are, but deep at heart I dream of all people desiring to be good and kind and i know that deep desire is part of my personal "why" and the cause of much of my own personal pain.

Grace

[This message edited by GraceisGood at 7:52 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

Don't let another's choices change who you are. That, to me, is the ultimate casualty.

Doesn't this happen no matter what though, whatever side we're on in the infidelity stew? Maybe some for the better? A clarifying of values... a laser focus on who we actually WANT to be?

I remember telling my husband why I was so unhappy when i confessed- thoughts about his career being his priority, a child centered marriage. My affair was a slap in the face for him. He changed that night. But really, all that crap I spewed wasn't even close to the mountain of pain I heaped on him by having an affair. I can barely stand to talk about those "why's" anymore, they seem so damn unimportant compared to what I did...

They may have illuminated flaws in our marriage. Flaws that could have been tended to easier than my affair has been.

[This message edited by rachelc at 7:39 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

I'd think one thing that would need to be looked at would be why would you stay with someone that did that to you.

Exactly... Words for both BS and WS...

I had begged for counseling- IC and MC. I had begged for sex. I made budgets that included gambling so that I would be a cool, compromising wife.

I pulled my head out of my ass pretty quickly- and I realized that the person I had given up on and fucked over the most, was me

I begged for these things and others, and yes, I have realized that I fucked myself the most. Very well stated trytoforgive.

Grace

You can evict that gorilla and the person responsible for inviting him to the party.

The gorilla has joint tenancy with right of survivorship; evicting him is independent of our choice to R or D.

20v1- that gorilla stays as long as he can free-load- (meaning- you don't talk about him)

You get him out 1 lb at a time- then you can deal with the mice infestation...

[This message edited by trytoforgive at 8:24 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

No stop sign, treading lightly. One of my experiences with a blame-shifting WS: My ex was visiting a friend in AZ during which time he lost his wallet. He called asking me the address for the house I lived in as a child. I gave him the address. He and the friend went to the house to take a picture. He set his wallet in the door handle thing inside the car, stepped out to take a picture, and his stupid friend pulled up on the curb while the door with the wallet was still open. The wallet fell out but they didn't notice it until 30 min later when they went out to eat. When they returned, the wallet was gone.

(I was in Georgia at the time this happened in AZ.) He told me it was my fault that he lost his wallet because they were taking a picture of the house I lived in as a child. Nothing, nothing, nothing was ever his fault, not even the three single-car accidents he got in that totaled three separate cars. I kid you not.

Taking responsibility for your actions is the foundation on which trust might be rebuilt.