SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Blame shifting should be defined as intentionally or ignorantly labeling the other spouse’s “whys” as entirely the problems needing to be fixed. We ask why, why, why to better understand our problems to better understand the cause and effect trails that allowed them to happen. We refer to resolving our problem as peeling the onion, by asking why, why, why to reach the core. I rather suggest our infidelity Cause Map is more complex than that for the sinking of the titanic. Our map involves multiple whys, multiple cause and effect trails, and multiple problems, and our fixes should not include just hard switches, but switches to minimize risk and maximum happiness and grace. I will work on fixing my own problems so long as my wife is fixing hers. Fixing the reason why she thought it was ok to invite a MOM into our marital bed for sex is one of the why’s I insist she fixes, with several switches.

How is acknowledging challenges and discussing them blameshifting?

It's not, and I don't think that's what most betrayed spouse's are referring to when they use the term blameshifting.

Blameshifting to me is simply not owning up to one's own bad choices and trying to shift the blame to the other spouse, or some external factor. Basically, trying to justify lying and cheating in any way that deflects from the fact that one made a choice to lie and cheat, for whatever reason. "I wasn't getting enough attention from you", that sort of thing.

But acknowledging challenges that existed in the marriage - "we haven't communicated well in years", "we became too child-centered and stopped seeing ourselves as a couple" - and committing to working on them for R purposes is quite another thing. Honest attempts to work on R and building an even better relationship should never be confused with blameshifting. The two look nothing alike in my opinion.

My wife tried a little blameshifting once during an argument ("no wonder I did what I did!"), but has otherwise been committed to working on and discussing the things that put stress on our relationship prior to her affair. As a BS, I've had no problem whatsoever telling the difference.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 5:34 PM, August 5th (Monday)]

As a WW (still working on putting the 'F' in front of that), this post reminds me of how I felt and reacted (as well as my BH) when I confessed an A 7 years ago. I am sure there are many BH here who will identify strongly with my own BH initial reaction to my confession, which was one of guilt and feeling responsible for the reasons I had an affair. I remember feeling surprised (and horribly,quite bemused) at his protestations of love for me just after I confessed. Looking back now, I realise how shut off I was and also how cold my reaction was to him expressing that. And that is because, I now realise, I wanted it to be a deal breaker, even though I justified telling him about it at the time as just wanting to be honest. And that is because the only way I had always handled any difficult issues, was to numb my hurt with throwing myself at anything but me, which included men, booze, constant seeking out others company so I didn't have to be alone with myself, or changing jobs/houses. Because yes, I had many hurts about my relationship, my husbands neglect of me and angry silences, but I had no coping skills as to how to address this. And perhaps more importantly, when I had, which was often over the years, it always degenerated into anger and resentment. And even though people on here often say, leaving is also an option, I felt too shamed and 'bad' already to be the one to break up my family. And I realise now, how terrified I have been throughout most of my life. I've been a mess really.

So, blameshifting, mentally and verbally, worked perfectly for me. Or so I thought. My BH and I were both complicit in going along with the reason I was unfaithful as being caused by his anger and disconnectedness over the course of our marriage. And there is some truth in this. After all, hurts are compounding and I was just resorting to how I had always handled feeling hurt, that is, numbing it with SOMETHING/ANYTHING except looking at myself. My BH didn't deal with his feelings of alienation from me with an A, his poison was to drink whiskey, a lot of it. We were both fucked. And did not know how to come even close to navigating this.

Now however, I realise, and am completely stunned by this realisation, how it never entered my head back then that I could have made other choices, like, I don't know - "honey, things are so bad now between us, and I feel so fucking lonely in our relationship, that I am in danger of having an affair, because this is how bad it has got for us". It NEVER occurred to me, because that would have actually been truthful and honest, and I had not lived my life this way. I was a hider. Always have been. Kinda stopped working for me though.

So now, I am learning not to hide. It's bloody hard to change the habits of a lifetime. I am still amazed how difficult it is to get important things out of my mouth, to share how I am feeling or when I'm hurt. In effect, to tell the TRUTH, "even if my hands shake".

Because what I've also learn't about me, is that blaming/blameshifting, whatever you want to call it, comes from terror. The terror of being exposed, and ultimately, the terror of feeling absolutely unlovable. And to be unlovable means you really are as you have always suspected yourself to be, 'bad'. Bad to the bone.

And who could love that?

How is acknowledging challenges and discussing them blameshifting?

I am baffled by this.

I am, too. Just curious, where is this viewpoint being expressed?

I hate the 50%, 100% thing.

How can you be 50% blame for the state of the marriage, try to appeal to the unhappy spouse who's about to jump down the affair rabbit hole and still take half the blame for the state of the marriage?

My BS tried to talk to me about our power struggle and my lack of interest in sex as a way to assert something/anything in our marriage. When that didn't work, I had an affair.

He tried, I wasn't listening.

So, I'm taking more responsibility for the state of our marriage AND the affair. I'm about at what JustDesserts is at.

Blameshifting: yep, you did this so I had to do that. i've heard some doozies on here too...one gal didn't make her husband a sandwich so he had an affair. oh, and I got the "I didn't know if we were gonna work out." me: so you started dating? Him: yep but I knew it was wrong.

[This message edited by rachelc at 5:44 PM, August 5th (Monday)]

I hate the 50%, 100% thing.

I appreciate your viewpoint rachelc because it sounds like you are really owning your shit.

But I like the 50%/100% thing, and believe that the concept can be empowering to a BS if used correctly.

Objectively, I was a so-so husband before discovering my wife's affair. Mediocre at times, good at times, but rarely great. I didn't mean to be that way, but long-term marriages fall into ruts so gradually that both spouses are often unaware they are in one until they are stuck in a rut so deep the tires just spin.

The problems in our marriage were mutual. We had communication problems. We developed intimacy problems, which isn't all that unusual with a house full of kids. Regardless, neither of us addressed these issues head on until we were faced with the fallout from a devastating betrayal.

That in no way justifies my wife's decision to be a cheater. She degraded herself and her marriage. I didn't.

But, the fact that my wife cheated in no way absolves me from being less of a husband than I could have been. Objectively, I was just an adequate husband. While I doubt anyone would have pitied my wife for marrying me, no one would have nominated me for Husband of the Year, either.

So if the marriage is to survive and thrive going forward, I have to acknowledge ways that I came up short in the "old marriage" and work to correct them. Otherwise I'm still accepting mediocrity. This is the empowerment part - after this ordeal, I will not accept mediocrity in my life or marriage anymore. The stakes are too high to suck in my husband role. Won't accept it from my wife, won't accept it from myself.

Prior to going down the dark path of her affair, my wife was a pretty good spouse most of the time, and no worse than average the other times. Yet I wouldn't always take her out on say, a Saturday night, if there was something more "important" going on - like a college football game on TV I really wanted to watch. That mindset seems incredibly stupid to me now, considering what is at stake. She deserved better from me than what she got. The marriage deserved better. And that's just an objective fact. The fact that she committed horrible behavior doesn't change that one iota. It doesn't magically transform me into a wonderful husband just because I now look like the much better spouse by comparison. I'd rather be held to a higher standard, regardless of what anyone else in the world does.

I'm sure there are heroic, self-sacrificing, all-consuming loving rock star husbands and wives who get cheated on from time-to-time. But I suspect that's rarely the case unless the WS has issues with sex addiction or prior sexual abuse. Most of the time, there's something missing in the marriage. One spouse chose a really shitty way to cope with problems in the marriage, the other didn't.

Again, your ownership of your own issues is great. But unless your BS is and always has been a model husband, he needs to own his as well.

BTW, my view of myself as a husband pre-A came from self-examination, not as the result of any blameshifting from my wife. A good marriage counselor really helps clarify the issues.

ETA: UO, apologies for the t/j. I got on a roll.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 6:44 PM, August 5th (Monday)]

How is acknowledging challenges and discussing them blameshifting?

I think it depends on the context of how it is discussed. Sometimes calling it blameshifting is actually blameshifting as well.

I suppose one of the things I look for is an argument that falls into the category I call reductio ad SQUIRREL!!! An example of this would be (I swear I am not making this up) claiming that the "why" was because "the basement flooded".

Yeah, the 50%, 100% thing... not too keen on that. Each is responsible for 50% of the marriage, but that does not mean that all the problems are equally distributed. Take financial issues for example, if one partner makes a dsix figure salary, and the other one has a huge gambling and drug problem, who is responsible for not being able to buy groceries? Does it fall equally, such that while one should either quit drugs or gambling, and the other should work harder to make more money? How about if they have a seven figure income?

Even the part about 100% of the affair... usually, pretty much all of the time, but not an absolute truth. I know there have been cases (even here) where the betrayed spouse pushed the wayward spouse to have an affair, not by any of the usual blameshifting excuse ways, but actually saying things like "Hey, why don't you go fuck that person, that would be so hot..." or something similar. How much responsibility is split in those cases.

[This message edited by aesir at 9:02 PM, August 5th (Monday)]

I can tell you that as a BS, it all ends up getting muddled. Fair or not fair, there are VERY few ways in which he can word things without me hearing, "You did blah blah blah wrong, and I was so frustrated that I cheated." Additionally, I end up walking away feeling like, "How dare he attack ME? I might have made a mistake but that's not as bad as what HE did."

When I think back, the first time I was cheated on, it was a month after my fiance and I lost a baby. I was upset ALL THE TIME. There was nothing he (or anyone else) could stay or do. I was on tons of anti-depressants, easily angry, and probably a total bummer to be around. He was upset too- and he claimed that he felt like he couldn't talk about it with me. At the time, I felt it was ridiculous- but 7 years looking back, I can understand. He probably didn't want to make me feel worse. So he started drinking, and let his anger and rage out while he was drunk. He started cheating because I wasn't emotionally available for him, and he needed someone to be.

Was him cheating my fault? Absolutely not. He shouldn't have gotten drunk and beat me up, he shouldn't have dealt with his frustration by sleeping with someone else. He made a commitment to me, and he should have communicated. He should have been patient. He should have found another outlet. Of course at the time, I didn't understand, didn't see the problems, and claimed that I knew nothing about them. But from a hindsight perspective, I can look back and say, "Okay, I get it. I can empathize with how he was feeling when he did those things."

I think it depends on the situation though. DD's dad was abusive and cheated on me pretty much from day one, so I don't empathize, nor do I take responsibility because our relationship wasn't in termoil when he began cheating. We were barely in a relationship when he started cheating.

With current fiance (stbh in 5 days now!!), I haven't gotten to the hindsight part yet. I've heard what he has to say, and I have taken it to heart and made changes that he seems to be happy with, as has he. But I'm not going to lie, I still have a hard time discussing the relationship pre-cheating because he blames me for part of the problems and I disagree, and didn't know that they were there. Maybe it is something I will understand as we get more distance from it? Maybe not.

I am, too. Just curious, where is this viewpoint being expressed?

Quite a few places. Honestly, when you read some wayward threads here there's like a paragraph disclaimer that usually comes before the main question or concern.

The, "I know I'm 100% to blame for my choices and I know there's no excuse for cheating".

If a wayward brings up stresses, trauma, pain that was co-existing with their horrific choices the mantra is rolled out, "those are excuses. I (if a bs) had the same thing going on BUT (see, BS's are the only ones that can use but) I never cheated". Ok. Wasn't taking a poll. Not the question or issue.

It's just those cluster fuck shit shows with the soupçon of foo, poor coping skills, flawed and faulty thought processes that needs to be looked at to see just where the wheels came off. What lies were told to themselves. How their perception was bent and skewed. How can they shore those up and replace those that can't be fixed so next time this little morass arises the default will be healthy and hard coded.

Different professions have different stress levels and repeated exposure to ugly and violent situations daily can absolutely impact someone. No, it's not an excuse. It's a fact, however and one that needs to be dealt with and working on successful coping and reaching out when needed skills adopted and learned to enable better responses and safe responses.

Beyond breaking, I think you're top dead center with that and I totally get that. What could possibly be offered that wouldn't grate, shred, burn the ears of someone listening to anything that doesn't sound like, "I'm a worthless piece of shit that needs to do WHATEVER IT TAKES"...and even then it would be, "yeah, right".

That's why it is NOT work the BS can do. The whys are the waywards to own and find with the understanding they may NEVER get buy in or acceptance. Never. That can't be the goal.

  I didn't mean to be that way, but long-term marriages fall into ruts so gradually that both spouses are often unaware they are in one until they are stuck in a rut so deep the tires just spin.

Now, see if a WS posted this it would be post after post calling bullshit and blameshifting because there is the unsaid "so that's why I cheated" that gets heard with EVERY post. Is this not a true statement? In some marriages you bet your ass. Do both partners feel the pain from this situation? Not necessarily. Maybe one works 24 hours a day for distraction, withdraws into solo hobbies, drinks, shops, friends, depression, anger, ignoring it. Are those healthy coping skills? Nope.

Ruts are brutal, lethal, flat places that things die slowly in. Quite painful. So, would discussing how it happened and what can be done to fix it be blameshifting? I certainly don't think so. I think it would be healthy. It's once that lethal blow is delivered that changes. I understand that. Just don't know how healing is possible until the "blah blah blah whine whine whine" starts to actually be heard as words with meaning and genuine pain along with remorse and deep deep sorrow.

So, would discussing how it happened and what can be done to fix it be blameshifting? I certainly don't think so.

I don't either. As a BS, if I see another BS falsely accuse a WS of "blameshifting" when it's apparent that what the WS is actually trying to do is address deep-seated problems in the marriage, I'll gladly wield a BS 2x4. But that hasn't been my experience with the people on this site. Blameshifting is something you recognize when you see it, and in my opinion it's hard to confuse that with genuine efforts to address other problems in the marriage.

My quote:

I didn't mean to be that way, but long-term marriages fall into ruts so gradually that both spouses are often unaware they are in one until they are stuck in a rut so deep the tires just spin.

Your response:

Now, see if a WS posted this it would be post after post calling bullshit and blameshifting because there is the unsaid "so that's why I cheated" that gets heard with EVERY post. Is this not a true statement?

I suppose, but it depends on the subject. I don't accept the implied premise that the WS stands on equal footing with the BS from a moral or ethical standpoint if the WS' infidelity is the primary crisis that is threatening the marriage. If the topic was the general breakdown of our marriage pre-A, I don't see why either spouse couldn't make a similar "rut" statement with equal authority.

Maybe the solution is the WS should add this at the end of a "rut" quote: "unfortunately, I chose a really shitty way to cope with the pain of finding myself stuck in such a rut. I chose to go outside of the marriage for solutions rather than to address them with my spouse." Objectively, that's owning your shit. Maybe being the wayward requires you to go one step further and clarify your point a bit. If so, that's part of the price of engaging in that type of behavior.

No doubt there are many WS's who could honestly say that their BS's were terrible in many ways. There are BS's out there who drink too much, are emotionally unavailable, who are workaholics, and who are generally boorish assholes. Some are unfaithful themselves. But any wayward who thinks that anything their spouse does somehow excuses or mitigates their choice to pull off their boxers or panties for someone else - with all the lies and lies of omissions required to carry on that way - they are deluding themselves.

And any statement that seems calculated to distract from the simple fact that a person betrayed their spouse can rightly be called "blameshifting" in my humble opinion. I think the key is whether the speaker is owning his or her own issues. That applies whether the speaker is a BS or a WS, but it seems like the burden of clarity is a little higher on the WS.

I suppose, but it depends on the subject. I don't accept the implied premise that the WS stands on equal footing with the BS from a moral or ethical standpoint if the WS' infidelity is the primary crisis that is threatening the marriage

Ah, so withdrawing, emotionally abandoning, drinking, gambling, is morally superior to fucking someone else because it's just fucking "your" spouse and family over (unless of course one wipes someone else out while driving drunk). Gotcha.

I'll leave morality and ethics to those in a position to judge those things. I'm not. Equal footing, though. I hate to tell you both spouses are on the same footing there. At any time either one can decide to pull the plug. That "superiority" requires another's buy in. Right after d day sure. Panic, guilt shame makes that sell much easier.

As a WS gets healthy and works through this cluster fuck, not so much.

Sal, no one healthy thinks another's actions mitigates their own. No one. Only people with wayward thought processes regardless of their alpha bet soup does. That is the quintessential blameshift wayward manual right there

Ah, so withdrawing, emotionally abandoning, drinking, gambling, is morally superior to fucking someone else because it's just fucking "your" spouse and family over (unless of course one wipes someone else out while driving drunk). Gotcha.

Well, if drinking, gambling and withdrawing are the primary issues that got the marriage in crisis mode UO, I guess there is a moral equivalence there. I don't know, but it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of people on this site seem to think their spouse ignoring those onerous marriage vows and fucking someone else is the main problem in their marriage. But I'll concede that it's possible that they're overreacting and should be focusing instead on their own assholiness.

I'll leave morality and ethics to those in a position to judge those things.

Why, are you not in a position to weigh in on those things? You are an adult who seems experienced and intelligent to me, my guess is that you are in as good a position to "judge" as anyone else.

Sal, no one healthy thinks another's actions mitigates their own.

Emphasis on the word "healthy." That we agree on, UO.

Sal, you're either purposefully twisting my point or having an issue with reading comprehension.

Infidelity is the purpose for this site and a lethal blow to any marriage. If one does possess the other issues, yeah, focusining on those would be a very good idea at some point. I'd think with a couple sooner than later would be advisable regardless if the marriage survives or not.

Why, are you not in a position to weigh in on those things? You are an adult who seems experienced and intelligent to me, my guess is that you are in as good a position to "judge" as anyone else.

For myself, yep. For others. No. I'm quite a full plate for myself, thank you

Sal, you're either purposefully twisting my point or having an issue with reading comprehension.

UO, I assure you that I'm not purposefully twisting your point, that's not how I operate. But it's possible that I have an issue with reading comprehension. Would you give me a specific example of something you wrote that I failed to comprehend? Maybe I'll fare better on the second attempt.

Infidelity is the purpose for this site and a lethal blow to any marriage. If one does possess the other issues, yeah, focusining on those would be a very good idea at some point. I'd think with a couple sooner than later would be advisable regardless if the marriage survives or not.

Wow, see, I agree with all of that. Maybe our disagreement is illusory.

The premise underlying your post, as I understand it, is that "blameshifting" is charged improperly against those who are just trying to acknowledge and address non-infidelity challenges that exist in a relationship. Maybe that's been your experience. If true, that's unfortunate.

Here's something I posted yesterday:

Blameshifting to me is simply not owning up to one's own bad choices and trying to shift the blame to the other spouse, or some external factor. Basically, trying to justify lying and cheating in any way that deflects from the fact that one made a choice to lie and cheat, for whatever reason.

I meant "blameshifting" strictly in the context of marital infidelity. Do you agree with that?

Maybe our disagreement is illusory.

well, it's definitely one sided, if it exists. I'm not disagreeing with you.

Trust me, I'm not the only one who has experienced it.

That's unfortunate

???

You certainly leave a snail trail of condescension. Wasn't sure with the "seems intelligent" (when i hear/read that my instant reaction is "how would "you" recognize it?")

I post on things from my perspective. Since I have sampled from quite a few menu items served by this diner from hell, betrayal, an OC I helped coach my then best friend during delivery (obviously I didn't know she was my ex's at that point), my choices, I try to share what I found in my process. It may not be everyones perception or fit.

To me, pain can alter and twist perception and a wayward's thoughts may already have a few things stacked against them right out of the gate. Doesn't make them not true, though...and it doesn't make all of them excuses, blameshifting and justification.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 1:55 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)]

To me, pain can alter and twist perception and a wayward's thoughts may already have a few things stacked against them right out of the gate. Doesn't make them not true, though...and it doesn't make all of them excuses, blameshifting and justification.

This right here. I can say from my own experience here on SI, when I first came here, I knew that my marriage had huge issues, due to Hl's prior EA's and ongoing boundary issues. I never mentioned a word of it due to the overwhelming attitude here that if a wayward says anything about the M, they are blameshifting. So I put these issues on a shelf, even in MC. That was a mistake. One that cost me dearly.

The overwhelming advice on here to always look at the A and ignore the M issues is not always good advice. Our M needed to be torn down to the foundation at the same time I was working on myself. Both things needed to happen. A wayward is not always blameshifting, however they most often are not given the benefit of the doubt.

You certainly leave a snail trail of condescension.

Funny, I was thinking something similar about you (the word arrogant also came to mind). Except I'm not clever enough to come up with something as good as "snail trail of condescension."

Wasn't sure with the "seems intelligent"

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I've never seen your IQ test scores but you do strike me as undeniably intelligent.

"how would "you" recognize it?"

Zing. Good point. The answer is that I hang around cyberspace with smart men on the BM thread. I'm hoping some of their brilliance will rub off on me one of these days.

To me, pain can alter and twist perception and a wayward's thoughts may already have a few things stacked against them right out of the gate. Doesn't make them not true, though...and it doesn't make all of them excuses, blameshifting and justification.

Different professions have different stress levels and repeated exposure to ugly and violent situations daily can absolutely impact someone.

Comments like these are where you lose me. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a person shouldn't work on themselves. But if those factors are cited as contributing factors to one's decision to step outside of the marriage, then what do you call that if not excuses, justification, and/or blameshifting? A pre-existing condition that turned into the disease of betrayal? IMO those are excuses for the way someone felt about themselves, their spouse, and their marriage - not excuses for why a choice was made to engage in what is objectively bad behaviors.

I think most on this site, myself included, are rightly sensitive to statements that appear to deflect from someone's choice to engage in behavior that is hurtful to someone else. The fact that the someone else may have been just as hurtful or that other factors - FOO issues, job stress - might have resulted in the WS bringing a lot of pain into the relationship seems to me to be besides the point.

But no one that I'm aware of is suggesting that a WS (or a BS or AP for that matter) shouldn't address all of the issues present in their life and in their relationships. If a BS was say, emotionally unavailable for much of the marriage, that is an issue that needs to be addressed if the marriage is to heal and survive. Preferably in MC/IC. As long as the issue is addressed without any suggestion that the BS' unavailability was the reason the WS chose to screw someone else, then we have a healthy attempt at addressing challenges. Not blameshifting.

But if those factors are cited as contributing factors to one's decision to step outside of the marriage, then what do you call that if not excuses, justification, and/or blameshifting?

Contributing factors. People in house fires don't act like people at picnics. Some rush into the building to save whomever they can regardless of their own safety some run for the doors stepping on others to get themselves to safety. One doesn't always know what they're truly made of until the rubber meets the road.

You have marriages that were on life support when a partner chose the horrific method of coping and you have others that were still in honeymoon bliss when their partner decided to add to their collection. You bet it's all betrayal. Do you feel the toxic thought processes are the same? Hell, no. Not even close.

Looking at the circumstances and seeing why those particular fuck fests triggered those thought processes is critical, to me, in identifying and targeting just where the work needs to start. If collecting attention is an issue it's quite a different deal than someone already compromised by a life blow.

It's not about excusing. It's about finding the weakness and strengthing and fixing. That's the goal here, right?

If there is no difference to someone how does the relationship continue? How would one ever feel safe unless that work was done?

Sal, working through such a horrific blow is something I didn't have the tools to accomplish regardless of my IQ. I don't have it in me to meet the challenges many do here every day. On the other hand I do understand how being in the middle of the chaos can also make it tough to consider some things that may help.

I face everything with logic. Sometimes it helps. It has me all my life. I try to offer that. For some it can help. For others not even close. While I do have confidence I'm not arrogant enough to think I have the answers. I wish. I'd love to solve this shit for everyone. I hate the pain I read here every day.

I believe some would never have cheated if certain things hadn't occurred. They never chose that option before and may never again, but if they don't find that thought process that enabled it to justify in that circumstance they'll always be at risk.

I was in the same M as my H, it was (in reality) way worse for me than for him. He treated me quite poorly to put it simply. I pondered cheating very very vaguely, I was propositioned countless times, and mainly I would just ignore, but once in a while I admit I did entertain the thought for a few seconds, and I also caught myself being "jealous" of others H's who seemed to be what I wish I had, but again I tried to avoid those thoughts asap. But because of this, I feel that if I would have cheated, it would have been because of your above quote. But I did not, and to this day I ponder why not. I have some ideas, but I bet there are others that my psyche cannot see at this time yet.

Just as you refused the "shame" I too refused to wear the infidelity label due to my H's treatment of me. I could not/would not allow that, it goes against my deepest need and how I need to see myself and I suppose I just could not give that up and I was willing to put up with things others would not that were not "infidelity".

How is acknowledging challenges and discussing them blameshifting?

I see two facets to this, one is that some people automatically take blame that is not theirs to take for a variety of reasons, and those people need to see this. But not accepting or listening to a Ws does not accomplish this IMO,which leads to facet number two, that a BS can learn SO MUCH by listening to the WS even if it is blameshifting. My H did a ton of blameshifting, he said that part of his reason his "why" was that he just KNEW I was going to cheat on him (if not already had) so he was gonna get me first. The thing is, he cheated prior to M, this was a total fabrication, but he honestly believed it, or he believed it for nearly 20 years until he finally had a HUGE perception shift and realized this was a lie, this was not real. Pretty much all of his mistreatment of me over the years was based on his perception of me which was WRONG, but until his perceptions shifted, no amount of "explaining or defending myself" would prove to him what was "real". His FOO issues played a huge role in this perception problem he had/has. I now can look back and see where his mother displayed these things herself, (I did not see them prior because I just assumed it was me, that I remembered events incorrectly, or I miss understood, or some other error on my part), and I also see this issue in my 4th child, her memories of events are not the same as the rest of the family.

I was a person who took blame for others mistakes, pain, sadness, etc. So for me to read about the blame of the A being 100% in the WS was enlightening and very helpful.

I too do not like the 50/50 M rule though. I do believe we all have our own percentage, but it is not cut and dried even across the board, some are more some are less.

In my case my responsibility and error in the M were things that many would consider part of a good M, being forgiving, tolerant, over kind, reading constantly about M and men and trying to meet their needs, etc, but I see now the error this was and how it contributed to our problems due to my H and who he is/was.

I think part of why the BS might not "listen" to the WS regarding deep seated M issues and pain the WS feels/felt in the M is partly due to the BS not being willing, wanting to be the "moral" one, so of course they do not have to listen to it, or how the Ws presents it to the BS. Just as it is important for the one listening to do so in a way to not shut down the one sharing, it is also important for the one sharing to do so in a manner to not shut down the listener if possible, especially when the one sharing is the one who inflicted a deep wound imo.

Yes, it is the WS job to find the why's and the BS really cannot do it for them, but in some cases a BS can be invaluable in helping the WS by being a beacon of truth, by gently not letting the WS blameshift, helping the WS to see things they might not see, but it is not easy and the BS cannot be counted upon to do it wholey without error or without a mar of their pain popping up. Just as the Ws cannot heal the BS, but in some cases the WS can give the BS what they need to get over certain road blocks, or give a perspective that shifts an awareness, etc.

Equal footing, though. I hate to tell you both spouses are on the same footing there. At any time either one can decide to pull the plug. That "superiority" requires another's buy in

At this point in time I will agree with the above, but during the years of "lies" we were not on equal footing and perhaps one could say that I "bought in" so he had the upper hand, but really there was so much information I did not have that there was no way I "bought in" in an informed manner, it was all done blindfolded, but I did not even realize I was blindfolded, so this is definitely an individual thing, not really a blanket statement that can just cover all areas.

To me, pain can alter and twist perception and a wayward's thoughts may already have a few things stacked against them right out of the gate. Doesn't make them not true, though...and it doesn't make all of them excuses, blameshifting and justification.

To me, it really is not "blameshifting" if the WS really does believe it due to altered perception. From the BS POV it IS blameshifting, because it is not real and true, but just because a BS knows this does not mean the WS will realize or acknowledge it and shutting the WS out (if R is the goal) or shutting them down because the BS sees blameshifting the BS could really loose out on some important information imo. (again as a BS it is not easy to hold the pain back, or swallow it, or whatever needed to not let it rise to the surface in a way that might shut the WS down during these times, very difficult indeed and for some I would say (due to their personality) nearly impossible, so I do not recommend it blanketly.

Grace

Irregarless

Yes, it is the WS job to find the why's and the BS really cannot do it for them, but in some cases a BS can be invaluable in helping the WS by being a beacon of truth, by gently not letting the WS blameshift, helping the WS to see things they might not see, but it is not easy and the BS cannot be counted upon to do it wholey without error or without a mar of their pain popping up

Whoa, this is actually the exact mindset that was a big factor in my post. A "B" in the letter combo means betrayed. That's it. It doesn't elevate to glowing saint. The BS isn't always the holder of the truth at all. Some marriages are a grouping of two very hurting flawed individuals.

I read some of these posts and get this image of a long suffering saint that was under a cloud of delusion that all people are good and just made a wrong choice ending up with the under bridge dwelling troll.

Shit, if that's the case I'd think the solution would be quite simple. Damn, glad I know now and get the fuck out. Marriage ain't a merit badge quest. It's a partnership and one very fucked up individual makes for a hugely unsuccessful partnership. Hell, George Zimmer founded the company and was just kicked out so no one is exempt from needing to be a continued productive part of the deal.

How often do you read about a "betrayed thought process"? Not that I've ever seen because it's random and affects millions. Betrayal in life is damn near a guarantee so it doesn't pre-screen to weed out dysfunctional people only choosing canonization potentials.

Gently steering? How can a "victim" gently steer a perpetrator towards the truth? Unless they themselves understood the mechenations behind such crimes how do they know the weaknesses and challenges.

Grace, you contradict yourself right out of the gate. We were in the same marriage, well actually not at all because he treated me like shit. Ok, so what does that mean? That cheating is the result of abuse? Well, we know that ain't true so guess other things need to be examined, right?

I'd think one thing that would need to be looked at would be why would you stay with someone that did that to you. I know I looked at that very hard. Very.

Bottom line is that healing and becoming a safe person and partner doesn't always equal relying on the victim of our choices to deliver the truth. Their perception may be more than just a tad skewed. I know if the animal in my apartment years ago needed my input to find his whys unless he can read really small writing on a 45 bullet he'd be fucked. I'd be the very LAST person on the face of the planet to be a good choice in helping his "rehabilitation".

[This message edited by uncertainone at 2:32 PM, August 7th (Wednesday)]