SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

*Affection

Ahhh... Now were back to the question: How do you measure investment?

*Sexual Fulfillment

*Conversation

*Recreational Companionship

*Honesty and Openness

*Physical Attractiveness

*Financial Support

*Domestic Support

*Family Commitment

*Admiration

Well that's the thing. Lets pull physical attractiveness out of there.

All other considerations being equal, there are a lot of problems with looking at this as a need, IMO. Looking at it as how much people invest in a relationship, sure. As the responsibility of another for personal happiness, I don't agree.

So two people enter into a relationship. They're young. 15 years later, one spouse no longer feels the other spouse is physically attractive, for any reasons from obsessing over chocolate or beer or just getting older.

On the one hand it should be expected that we try to keep a certain minimum standard for those we love. OTOH, this is also about a personal comfort zone. Also, gods and devils unite and spear my ass with a light saber if I were to suggest a woman getting fatter as she got older is a direct conflict with an emotional need I have for an attractive woman in high heels and ringlets who can handle a couple of polyhedral percentiles like a pro.

If I do feel that, though, then is it the responsibility of the spouse who isn't the eternally young geek dream to maintain that image? There is a point somewhere that crosses over a line from accepting who this person is to being unhappy with who they are. We cannot control someone else, so if they turn into Jabba the Slutt and trundle around on a hoverbarge, sure, it would make the husband of that pretty unhappy.

It's his own responsibility to decide whether or not he will accept that, or how far along the approach to that. It is about personal boundaries. "Honey I need you to try and lose enough weight to see your feet, we can get you a vespa or something." If she doesn't, and he stays in that relationship, then he's not observing his own boundaries. Yeah, she shouldn't be Slutting it up as Jabba Baby, and yeah, that's an unhappy scenario even if she ends up the Top for a Princess Leia full time cosplay partner.

At that point there is a choice - the responsible choice is to say "What you're doing to yourself is something I find kinda nasty and I have been voicing my concerns for years. I need to bail. btw Boba Fett escaped that sarlacc pit and he's pissed too."

Jabba is responsible for her behavior, but Jabba's hubby is responsible for his choice in responses to that behavior. If Jabba tries to dump him in the sarlacc pit he can continue to tell Jabba that makes him unhappy, or he can say fuck that and use his jetpack to scoot the fuck out of there. Obviously life is not that simple (or complicated) but while we can call these things boundaries or emotional needs or Dark Side and Light Side, it's all just The Force, and how you use The Force is your own responsibility, and how someone uses The Force for Being Shitty is theirs.

Boba Fett did escape the sarlacc pit btw.

Boba Fett did escape the sarlacc pit btw.

Yes he did. (Though it wasn't in the movies.)

I have had a problem with some parts of Dr. Harley's list, the main one being that there are some things (such as physical attractiveness, also others) that a person has very little control over. And other things on the list that a person has lots of control over. And even some other things that baffle me as to why they're on the list because it seems like they're givens that BOTH partners should be doing (child care, which falls under both "domestic support" and "family commitment" in his book, being the first one that comes to my mind for a couple who has kids). But that's from my own worldview. Other people will have other experiences. That's why marriage is such a balancing act. Also why (and I'm guilty of this) it's easy to get confused between "needs" and "wants". What is the main difference between "need" and "want" anyway? The way we use it sometimes, make it seem like a need is nothing more than an extra-strong want. Or maybe that needs are dealbreakers and wants are things that if you don't get it, then suck it up. What do we actually "need" for a marriage to work? And what do we "need" individually to be healthy and happy?

I don't have universal answers. I have experiences that I'm learning from. Back to my snuggling example. We've been snuggling more. My dear husband says that he knows I like it when we snuggle, because I feel safe, and he wishes it hadn't taken my Nana passing away in order for him to hug me so much more. Over the last three weeks, several times at night, I haven't been able to sleep and am having trouble with invasive thoughts, nightmares, and feelings of sadness, fear, and a whole host of others. Several times I've asked him to snuggle with me, and being half-asleep, he hasn't. Not his fault. Do I need him to snuggle? If I frame it in terms of, "I won't have nightmares if he snuggles with me", it can certainly seem so (the times he did snuggle, I did fall asleep and slept better). But when I think "how can I do something about the nightmares?" then his participation becomes an option, but not the only solution. There are other ways to take care of my health. And it doesn't even mean turning to someone else. Nor does it mean anything personal against my H. The trick is knowing I have the right tools to be healthy and then using them.

That's not to discount the times where a person turns someone down out of contempt or trying to control. That's something else at play. At that point it's about more than "needs" or "wants", it's about control.

One home might think it's totally acceptable for one partner to do the majority of childcare work, including being responsible for all meals, every bedtime, every disciplinary action, and finding a sitter - even when their spouse is at home during the times the sitter will be helping. Another home might not find that OK and find that if one person asks for help with childcare, then their spouse would be irresponsible to refuse to help. And many couples probably disagree about it between each other. It's not simple. What's healthiest for your child(ren)? What keeps one or both parents healthy and functional as parents? What are the values you believe in? Did you know going in that you and your spouse didn't hold the same values?

I wouldn't say "needs"/"wants"/whatever are bullshit: I'd say they're complicated.

ETA: Another thing that complicates it all is the *asking* part of it. Again, we all have different problems with it depending on the person and couple. Is it that we/our partners haven't asked explicitly for what we/they need and resent our partners/us for not meeting those unspoken needs? Is it that we or our partners have asked and then been refused? Is asking seen as bad or good, and does it depend on the context and timing, on what's being asked for, and on the tone? Maybe we shouldn't expect one person to meet all our needs or wants, or even most of them, especially if we should be taking care of ourselves - but does it mean that it's wrong to even ask for what we need or want? How will anyone else know what we're thinking/feeling/wanting/needing if we don't say something? And for that matter, how do we handle hearing no? Entitlement? Acceptance? Insistence that this is actually something very important? Pain or suffering? Depends a lot on what we're asking too...

[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:51 PM, August 15th (Thursday)]

Ahhh... Now were back to the question: How do you measure investment?

*Affection

*Sexual Fulfillment

*Conversation

*Recreational Companionship

*Honesty and Openness

*Physical Attractiveness

*Financial Support

*Domestic Support

*Family Commitment

*Admiration

You know you are in deep trouble when you ask your partner to order those in order of importance and their only reply is "They are all my #1 most important need"...

Interesting and fast moving conversation! Still trying to take it all in. But wanted to post a reply to StillGoing who disagreed with my notion that if your spouse says she needs X (or an orange!) to feel loved and you won't honor that, it sends a strong message. StillGoing included in his rebuttal, " On my end, I regularly text her asking where my keys (or phone) are, and make lists of two items when I go to the store (today it's a replacement spool for the edger and.. holy fuck I already forgot, I need to ask my 7 year old)(it was ant traps) so asking me to incorporate a habit that requires a regular routine AND mixing it up every time is going to fail at some point because I just don't work like that."

To my way of thinking this totally illustrates my point. You recognize in yourself some shortcomings (losing your keys/phone, forgetting what's needed at the store) and *because they are important you find ways to work around it and get it done*.

Yes, what rings your wife's bell isn't natural to you, but it is *not important enough to you to figure out how to make it happen.*

She sees that you put in the effort about other things but not about what feels so important to her.

Why is it acceptable to you to steadfastly maintain that she should just honor the fact that you as you are (wired to be forgetful)--but you don't have to honor the fact that she is as she is (wired to feel loved when she gets thoughtful gifts)?

Why is it acceptable to you to steadfastly maintain that she should just honor the fact that you as you are (wired to be forgetful)--but you don't have to honor the fact that she is as she is (wired to feel loved when she gets thoughtful gifts)?

Because the scope of what is considered a thoughtful gift in that scenario becomes incompatible with the ability to provide them. Like I said (quoting myself):

Further, in this situation it is almost always set up where the unmet 'emotional need' is actually met in another way but ignored because the specific thing requested is not regularly and often supplied - if spouse brings back flowers from the grocery or favored snacks or a show to watch together those are not seen as gifts (I've actually seen grocery store flowers derided regularly on this very forum) but as failures to provide.

I'm not trying to argue it's okay to shit all over the boundaries and wants of another, but that very often efforts to meet them are also dismissed out of hand.

I've finally found the lock on my heart. If this conversation doesn't totally kill anyone's wish to be in a relationship I don't know what will.

Also, I will never be able to watch star wars again.

Thanks all! Moving on....I think I will find some homeless, starving children to invest my energy in cuz ya know what? I couldn't tell you the last grown up I've met and liked enough to have go-rounds like this.

What you said in the first quote was, essentially, there was no way you should be expected to even try to honor her request.

That's a whole different conversation than, "I tried to bring her gifts and she dismissed them."

If you do bring her gifts and she dismisses them, then it's totally fair to insist on credit for trying. The next question is, how do you respond to her rejection of what you brought? If its, "you'll never be satisfied, you ungrateful bitch," well, that proves the hypothesis that you're an uncaring jerk.

Your response could just as easily be, "let's talk more about why that didn't do it". THAT is where you discover what's going on emotionally. Is she feeling invisible and your grocery store flowers feel generic and reinforce that sense that she doesn't matter? Is it that inexpensive gifts hit some thing inside her about money and security and caretaking? Is it that she's told you 4000 times she's allergic to carnations and you still bring her carnations EVERY SINGLE TIME, can't you LISTEN???

You can't dig down to that level unless you're willing to honor your wife's right to like what she likes and need what she needs--and then be willing to get in there and really UNDERSTAND IT and LIVE IT.

Dismissing the whole thing out of hand--I can't, I'm not wired, there's no way I could do it right so why even try--yeah, that tells her loud and clear that you really don't think she's worth it.

Been there, done that, got the shelf full of marriage books to prove it.

I'm not sure how you read that in my post, I will try to be less incoherent next time. I did not intend to convey the idea that since a very specific theme of meeting the Emotional Need of Avarice could not be 100% appeased then it should be abandoned entirely. I was aiming at the opposite, in fact; that often this is viewed as an all or nothing venture when it should not be.

It was not that there was no way I could honor her request and therefore I should dismiss it but I am incapable of remembering to buy 2-3 small, thoughtful purchases a week on top of a full time job, house work, small children, stupid animals and weapons grade ADD, but I do try to make thoughtful purchases such as Unconditional Chocolate on my way home from work, or purple flowers at the grocery when I am there, or a little thing from amazon when I am buying the 500 bulk pack of glow in the dark alligator-tipped bludgeon style condoms.

If thoughtful gift purchases done to the best of my capacity are not up to standards of very specific gift purchase requirements then my gestures, stupid as they might be, are not even considered in the whole Emotional Need Of Avarice equation. This is similar to the moving target but different in that the receiver has tunnel vision and can only see what they are not getting in this regard as opposed to everything that is being provided.

Industrial-strength snark, I see, too. I'll bet your mockery ("Emotional need of Avarice") is a real hit with the little woman! How could she not appreciate such sterling wit!

More constructively, have you actually asked her what's up with that? Have you asked her to at least give you credit for trying? Or do you pitch a sarcastic snitty fit like that post, pick up your ball, and go home?

Genuinely curious, to all the men on this thread:

Who plans date night in your relationship? How often do you date your wife?

It's also possible that this is a difficult topic because of how these things interact with infidelity. For instance, if a BS was asking for certain things, the WS said no, and then did or gave those things with the AP or with someone else, then that would really hurt the BS's feelings, wouldn't it? And if a WS was asking for something, the BS said no, and the WS did those things with the AP or with someone else... Then two different issues get mixed up and often neither person gets heard. The WS might hear: "You cheated and now your needs or wants are irrelevant" and the BS might hear: "You didn't give them this need or want and that's why they cheated." Two separate issues. Needs/wants and cheating are separate issues - or rather, cheating is a horrible tool to use if you're trying to "get what you want". An unacceptable tool. So then what - for either a BS, WS, or MH - *are* acceptable tools for obtaining what you want or need?

I think this might be partially why this is an even more sensitive issue. Maybe taking a deep breath - there's a good chance that we here are all trying to be loving to our partners.

Industrial-strength snark, I see, too

If you can’t let it out here then where. I’d have to guess snark is a defense mechanism. How that convo sounds with the W might sound different. At least that’s what I would guess.

Who plans date night in your relationship? How often do you date your wife?

That date night happens – 50/50

That date night can happen (kids and all) 5% me 95% W

That date night has plans for anything – 99% me(not because I prefer it that way but I’ve come to accept the role)

Before kids it was pretty regular. After kids it almost stopped. After DDay two years ago nearly weekly. BTW the A was before kids.

Are emotional needs bullshit?

I don’t think so. Figuring out your own emotional needs, communicating them to your spouse and also self-soothing is what it’s about IMO. Looking for someone else to fulfill those needs is asking for disappointment. No one can do it. And my captain obvious observation - trying to sort through all of it after an A has devastated an M is so fucking hard and dealing with loss of trust makes it even harder.

[This message edited by foundoutlater at 6:05 PM, August 15th (Thursday)]

Industrial-strength snark, I see, too. I'll bet your mockery ("Emotional need of Avarice") is a real hit with the little woman! How could she not appreciate such sterling wit!

I can see how that would be sarcastic, sorry. I just kind of apply stupid shit to what I'm saying. I don't really buy bulk condoms with alligator tips in bludgeon style either, it's kind of a goofing off thing.

More constructively, have you actually asked her what's up with that? Have you asked her to at least give you credit for trying? Or do you pitch a sarcastic snitty fit like that post, pick up your ball, and go home?

I tried, but turns out she was fucking this guy for awhile. We worked it out though.

eta:

Who plans date night in your relationship? How often do you date your wife?

Lately she does, and I will say that anybody with kids is a slave to the schedule of whoever arranges the babysitter. Since I am not comfortable chatting with a 15 year old girl, and the sitter is the daughter of her co worker, that tends to fall to her.

Years ago when it was my parents watching them for us those nights, it was me planning it, since I was the one arranging the schedule.

Before kids.. oh man, I dunno. That's like asking me what color the walls are of the Palace Which Can Only Be Told Of In Song. That's a dreamy, far away place of wonder and fantasy.

eta again:

oops

[This message edited by StillGoing at 7:37 PM, August 15th (Thursday)]

Genuinely curious, to all the men on this thread:

Who plans date night in your relationship? How often do you date your wife?

ladies_first,

Please feel free to start a new thread for this. Thank you.

Sorry for the t/j, my Love Language is Quality Time.

If you do bring her gifts and she dismisses them, then it's totally fair to insist on credit for trying. The next question is, how do you respond to her rejection of what you brought? If its, "you'll never be satisfied, you ungrateful bitch," well, that proves the hypothesis that you're an uncaring jerk.

It does? To whom? Not to me. I am very curious as to what some's definition of a "gift" is. If my SO bought something for me that he picked out and wanted me to have, that is the gift. The fact he wanted to, thought of me, thought about me. It honestly doesn't get much better than that.

If you know what "you" want then why don't "you" buy it yourself, as isn't that basically what you are doing along with all sorts of wonderful messages your giving. What love language is that?

I have know a few women to leave certain jewelry store adds out at Christmas, made hints, turned up volume on certain ads. I can't even begin to say what my response would be but it would involve wood chippers...for the ads, of course.

I love flowers...growing in the ground, not wilting in a vase. Jewelry gets in the way. I have enough clothes. If my SO gets me flowers I love them. I'd never buy them myself but he wanted to and he did. Isn't that the gift?

Is it all really that complicated? I know what he likes because I ask. I care. I'm honestly interested. He knows what I like for the same reasons. Isn't that what the whole thing is about? Being interested and caring? If that is absent how is some relationship Rosetta Stone gonna help that?

I've learned all sorts of new uses for words I thought were pretty defined...comfort, gift, love language. In the back ground Princess Bride is playing on loop. "You" keep using those words but I don't think they mean what "you" think they do.

t/j

I can't even begin to say what my response would be but it would involve wood chippers...for the ads, of course.

For some reason, I don't believe you (about the ads). j/k... kind-of

Maybe (probably?) I'm oversimplifying here, but essentially it seems like what's being debated is "It's the thought that counts" versus "Make sure you get me what I asked for" theories of gift giving. Perhaps that indicates what side of the debate I fall onto.

To me it is in some way measurable (as to whether it is bullshit or not) in terms of expected outcome on the part of the recipient and on well-meaning intent on the part of the giver. If the recipient feels like they won't be happy, whole and sane unless they get X, Y, or Z from their SO, then the expectation is, to me, completely unrealistic....it seems like in that scenario it puts the 'giver' in the position of being somewhat responsible for their SO's needs....and that, to me, IS bullshit. I mean, really, what we all want (I think, anyway) is to know that our spouse devotes a little head space to us in a positive light during the time when we're not around...and nitpicking about how they choose to demonstrate that just seems...I dunno...nitpicky?

ETA: Obviously, this assumes that your SO is not going around town giving the 'gift' you're asking for to everybody EXCEPT you. That's just a dick move....because then they're actively, consciously withholding it from you.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 12:01 AM, August 16th (Friday)]

StillGoing: ah, I see, you don't have to treat her with care or respect because you're still punishing her. Goof around if its what you need to do but I bet making light of the whole thing isn't really going to do much to make things better.

I think the gift giving angle example is getting clouded by materialism. The larger point is that whatever the "love language", and whatever specific "dialect" works for your spouse, it's about learning what emotional meaning is stirred up in your spouse and attending to that.

My LL is words of affirmation. My husband treated me like I was invisible for years, about anything emotional. What I wanted (closeness, kindness, affection, sex) didnt matter. When he started working on developing that LL to heal things between us, there were lots of nuances about what worked and what didn't to push my buttons in the right way. When he said "I like that dress" it came across as self centered and judging in a bad way, but "you look great in that dress" it conveyed that he was finally seeing ME. There was a lot of struggle and confusion about this as we worked it out--it took a while before I could really identify and articulate what was going on. But there was a lot of that thing like uncertainone says (I'm giving you a gift, why doesn't that work/I'm giving you words of affirmation, why doesn't that work) but it just took some exploration. I did give him credit that he was doing what I had asked and it was a stretch, but I was also honest when what he was doing was not having the intended effect so we dug a little more to refine. I can tell you that exasperation and contempt and sarcasm along the way sure didn't help and set things back a whole lot more.

So: goof away, buddy, but you're only digging the hole deeper when you do. Good luck with that.