SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Clarrissa, your comment about putting yourself on a pedestal really resonated with me. I fell in the hole I dug for myself.

My husband loved me from day one and did nothing but encourage me to be myself with him. Unfortunately, I didn't know who I was, so it was hard to be "myself". Instead, I tried to live by an idea of what it meant to be an adult, a wife and a mother which was very strictly and conservatively defined by my upbringing. I tried so hard to live up to that no-conflict, subservient marriage model that I ended up resentful, angry, and depressed. In my effort to avoid conflict, I created more and in the worst possible way.

Now that I am learning what love really looks like and I am truly with my husband, 100%, it seems we are both happier and more relaxed with each other. The pain persists, as it will, but we are working together to be together.

"How can you love me and not see me?"

Good question.

I think it's one of those things that changes over time, because of different things factoring in. For one, we're always learning more about the person we love, and that person changes over time in some ways. So we're always seeing and learning new things about them.

Another thing is, a lot of us are learning how to love. We weren't born knowing. We learn as we ourselves grow. But we can't see or love someone without willingness to do so. We have to be willing to open our eyes, and our hearts, to someone else. And maybe, in either or both capacity, many of us choose to keep them closed.

So who knows, maybe it's imperfect? Maybe it never reaches a set destination. It's about acceptance as much as it is about seeing and loving. Acceptance of who someone is. Moving beyond personal hurt and accepting someone for who they are. That's hard. And if infidelity or any other serious value-violation is in the picture? Suppose you have an unremorseful spouse? Before you can love them, can you really accept that this key piece about them - that they're unremorseful - is reality? That it is NOT going to change? Can you love that part of them too, simply because it's part of who they are, even if your own values are different? Can you love someone like that without expecting them to change, and without believing there to be something wrong with yourself? Open-ended questions with no point to them, because I'm still working on them myself.

Someone asked in another thread - "how can I love you if you won't show me who you are?" Another good question. Do you just grow to love the shadows as part of the person? We see an infatuation with shadowed people as being "dark and mysterious", but that's not really loving them really. That's loving our own imaginations about what they're like. So do we love the bits we see and accept them, accept that over time we'll learn more, we'll see more of this person, understand more, possibly love more?

Lonely girl, it's one thing to be confident in areas of your life. He may see that as threatening so that part becomes the only part he sees. That which scares us always looks bigger than it is. Why did you feel you had to lie about your past sexual history? You state you both made yourselves out to be "better" than you were. Do you not see what a fucked subliminal message that is to both yourself and each other?

Oh yes, we both realized that in MC. If there's one lesson that I've learned throughout all of this, it's that I will be completely honest with him about myself in the future, even if he doesn't like hearing it. I don't want to be loved for the image of myself that I gave him. I lied about my sexual past because I thought that he wouldn't want me if he knew the truth. He presented himself as this very conservative, Christian man. He said that he only dated innocent girls. My past isn't horrible, but I thought if he knew my number of partners, he wouldn't want me. So I lied. In reality, he lied about his past too, and now I'm struggling to put the "good Christian man" image that I had of him together with what I know now about him. It would have been so much easier if we had both just been honest with each other.

I'm not truly confident in any areas of my life, but I have to sort of "fake it" in my job. I'm an attorney, and I think sometimes just the type of job I do gives people the impression that I must have my shit together and be confident. That's not the case though, and I'd love to be able to talk to WS about my insecurities. But I think sometimes he just sees me as this tough and confident girl, and that's the image I'm stuck in.

I don't think there is anything more infuriating to me than someone that thinks they know things about me when when they don't. Even if their misperception is flattering.

But I don't think there is anything that turns me on more than a man that actually does know me, my motives, how I'm thinking about something and uses his knowledge of me to be compassionate, understanding and accepting.

@UO & Tired: perhaps after a thousand or two more posts I'll rate a "benefit of a doubt". If there's ever a question regarding my words, or their intent, feel free to ask. I sometimes need to ask myself for clarification!

In general, mean-spirited, passive aggressive, unkind, preachy, or gratuitous will not be my message.

I'm here to learn, share, and be connected to one and all here on SI. Me alone in a room conjuring up my best ideas and plans...not usually the best idea!

End t/j. Carry on...

I don't think there is anything more infuriating to me than someone that thinks they know things about me when when they don't. Even if their misperception is flattering.

Exactly!!!!

JD, you did rate that. That's why your eyes aren't bleeding.

Another thing is, a lot of us are learning how to love. We weren't born knowing

Interesting, silver. I'm trying to think if I learned to love or more learned how to recognize it when it was shown to me. Loving someone came surprisingly easy even though I haven't had much experience with it.

He said that he only dated innocent girls

And that there is all you needed to know. If you have to lie to someone to be with them any cluster fuck that comes down the road started right here. So, he told you he basically wanted a virgin and you said you were. You're a lawyer. I'm sure you're familiar with fraud. How does your choice there not qualify?

That benchmark would have been a huge red flag to me. I'm sure he would have got that...when I finally stopped laughing.

You're not stuck in anything and I'd be running so fast there'd be tred marks. Not sure what you're working to save. I'm hoping yourself.

Well, let me ask "you". Would someone loving you because they love who you are and would love to share their life with you not because they need someone to not feel alone, want to enjoy things with you but understand that life would go on without you not be a gift? There's no selfishness there. There's no, "I need you to validate, stroke, support me".

I had a conversation with my wife about a year or so into our marriage about this. She was seeking validation and started listing all the things she did for me (or thought she did for me) and went on and on about how lost I'd be without her, and I basically told her, "Listen, I love and appreciate everything you do for me, but if you walked out the door tomorrow, I'd be OK in the long run. I'd hurt for a while, but I'd recover eventually and all that stuff you do for me, I'd figure out how to do it myself. I'm with you because I *want* to be with you, not because I *need* to be with you."

Which, to me, would seem to be more of an ego-stroke than what she was actually seeking, which was some sort of affirmation that I *needed* her, in the most literal sense of the word. I want you, I want to be with you...that's why I'm here. Not because I feel like I need to be. It probably didn't go really far in making her feel secure, but it was true.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 9:29 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

And that there is all you needed to know. If you have to lie to someone to be with them any cluster fuck that comes down the road started right here. So, he told you he basically wanted a virgin and you said you were. You're a lawyer. I'm sure you're familiar with fraud. How does your choice there not qualify?

I agree. It was fraud on my part. I've learned that I want my partner to love me for me, the good and the bad.

The ironic thing is that he did the same thing. He lied about his number of partners too because he thought I wouldn't date him if I knew the truth.

I'm trying to think if I learned to love or more learned how to recognize it when it was shown to me.

After sleeping on it, I'm looking at my son, and he seems to know what unconditional love is. Which scares me. If his understanding of love is better than mine (and that's not hard to believe), then am I corrupting his understanding of it with my examples?

Maybe it's not that we're learning as much as I thought. More like sometimes our FOO unlearns us, and then we have to relearn it later. Recognizing it when it's shown to us... It's confusing when someone does something that hurts and then calls it love. It distorts our understanding.

After sleeping on it, I'm looking at my son, and he seems to know what unconditional love is. Which scares me. If his understanding of love is better than mine (and that's not hard to believe), then am I corrupting his understanding of it with my examples?

Maybe it's not that we're learning as much as I thought. More like sometimes our FOO unlearns us, and then we have to relearn it later. Recognizing it when it's shown to us... It's confusing when someone does something that hurts and then calls it love. It distorts our understanding.

I don't know that children are born knowing unconditional love, I believe that we are born knowing how to depend on those that are supposed to care for us, and that can get warped or changed very quickly. Even as quickly as in the womb.

I do believe we recognize it when the true form is shown to us. Unselfish love, love that sees you for who you truly are. The kind of love that UO is talking about. Most people don't know what that is, and have to learn it, or grow into it.

ETA: It didn't quote correctly, sorry.

[This message edited by tired girl at 10:48 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

The thread that keeps on giving, thanks UO.

I hope your realize that I was being sarcastic in agreement with you... like that other poster, hard to get the tone in a forum. Yes, I think I am still mad that my disclosures per-engagement were so easily dismissed once married. Sure I think I based my decision to ask her to M based on her being one the 'same page' as me.

UO: That may not be your experience at all.

That is my experience. My mother built a box for me and put me in it. I did not know I was allowed to be whomever I wanted; I just was given 'obligations' and fear. My WW had a box too - and it felt very familiar.

So I had been very angry at my mother - and took a lot of it out on my WW - but also at my WW for the box she shoved me in. But really I am most angry at myself. I did have choices. I will forgive myself at some point. I allowed myself to live a life that other people wanted. It is a comfortable one, hence its allure.

My WW as I said was on her pedestal, my not seeing her is related both to my vision (my fears, etc.) as well as what someone above posted: 'how can someone love you when you won't show them who you are'... my WW always hid herself from me, had no voice.

When I think of the A, your thread offered me one more insight as to a potential 'why', maybe not for the A in particular, but for the M:

...daily as when you are who you are they're continually disappointed, angry, hurt.

See, I was the problem, and thus the M was wrong, and she sure took out that anger on me. Her family kinda supports the view that my not meeting some standard of success or what my WW wanted, whatever, is my fault...and thus I need to 'change'. I have nothing to prove to my WW or her family.

Again, don't know. Not my experience.

Got it. But the thread has taken on a direction of 'life and how to live it' beyond your own sitch. You are extremely insightful, brilliant. You vented, and now, at least I want you to expand your take on things.

I asked 'what is a BH to do?' based on the possibility that the WW hides herself more than the BH does not 'see' her or projects things on to her. Additionally, assuming perfect vision, let's say the true WW does not have the capacity for fidelity. Does unconditional love call you to stay with someone who hurts you?

My head exploded here as I have been away from the computer and I see now there are more posts so I will catch up.

Having an truly intimate and vulnerable relationship is very difficult - especially when you lack needed tools and did not get the right kind of love from the FOO.

Happy Friday all!!

Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:58 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

I do believe we recognize it when the true form is shown to us. Unselfish love, love that sees you for who you truly are.

Do we? But there's so much doubt. We can doubt the veracity of the person whose love seems pure, or on the other hand, know they're the real thing but doubt they've truly seen us, through no fault of theirs. Maybe we've been conditioned to hide ourselves.

I think it's almost easier to give unconditional love. Because there's no doubt when you truly feel it. But I wonder if it's easy to get there. Does it involve letting go? I think so. In a very dangerous world, it's not easy to let go. Or would that mean it's not pure, because it should come out no matter what the surroundings are?

ETA:

I don't know that children are born knowing unconditional love, I believe that we are born knowing how to depend on those that are supposed to care for us, and that can get warped or changed very quickly.

I think you're right that we're born knowing how to depend on our people, and that it can be warped very quickly. But I also think a lot of children (at first) love their parents unconditionally, no matter what their parents show them of themselves. That was my experience. I loved my mother seeing she was a heroin addict, seeing and feeling when she hit me sometimes, no matter what she did. To this day, I've never felt angry with her about it, even though she feels very guilty about that time in her life. I know that what I felt was unconditional love. It was so simple. I loved other people in my family who made hurtful choices. For the longest time that didn't change. I feel ashamed now that I let them emotionally beat it out of me. I let them change me. Because that was one of the things that made me who I was, one of the only things I was sure of, that unconditional love. It was stronger than any faith for me.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:10 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

Does unconditional love call you to stay with someone who hurts you?

Why does unconditional love need to be attained in a M?

Do we? But there's so much doubt. We can doubt the veracity of the person whose love seems pure, or on the other hand, know they're the real thing but doubt they've truly seen us, through no fault of theirs. Maybe we've been conditioned to hide ourselves.

I think it's almost easier to give unconditional love. Because there's no doubt when you truly feel it. But I wonder if it's easy to get there. Does it involve letting go? I think so. In a very dangerous world, it's not easy to let go. Or would that mean it's not pure, because it should come out no matter what the surroundings are?

You and I are very different. I have never hidden who I was.

And I only believe in unconditional love for my children.

Yep, unconditional love is for kids...silly rabbit. Seriously, to have unconditional love for a spouse or romantic partner seems honestly lazy. Love in relationships is work. It's strapping that armor on someone every day to protect them from others and even yourself. I don't have that kind of time or energy to do that for someone that doesn't merit that effort and I can't love from afar as a bystander.

Lonely girl, you learned something else.

""When one is in love, one always begins by deceiving one's self, and one always ends by deceiving others."--Oscar Wilde"

You lied to yourself that you weren't enough and he was more important than who and what you are. No one, absolutely no one is worthy of self abandonment. I don't care who or what you think you are, you are always deserving of your protection. Sometimes it's the only protection you'll have.

I asked 'what is a BH to do?' based on the possibility that the WW hides herself more than the BH does not 'see' her or projects things on to her. Additionally, assuming perfect vision, let's say the true WW does not have the capacity for fidelity. Does unconditional love call you to stay with someone who hurts you?

First we are to unconditionally love ourselves. Healthy unconditional love can and should have boundaries. If my BH felt like I didn't have the capacity for fidelity then he absolutely should protect himself regardless of his love for me, because first he loves himself. I hurt him tremendously and deeply - I never want to see anyone, most of all me, hurt him like that again. I would not expect him to love, honor, and cherish me at the expense of himself.

Unconditional love can exist within a marriage. But a marriage isn't and shouldn't be unconditional. I love my husband - absolutely and completely and that will never change. I know him well enough and have seen enough of his soul to know that I'll always love him. However in the context of our marriage we have issues and there are conditions to our marriage (no more cheating, no lies, respect each other).

You and I are very different. I have never hidden who I was.

Then I think you're a strong person. I admire people who don't hide. You're raising a question for me - why do I hide, if I think it's a sign of strength and health to show yourself?

There are many posts on SI that disparage people with mental illnesses - usually their WSs (so the anger at the mental illness might really be anger at their WS's hurtful choices), but saying that these people have no soul, do not know how to love. Mostly referring to people with Borderline PD or Narcissistic PD. If a person were to have one of these diagnoses and then be given the label of "having no soul" or "not knowing how to love", then why on Earth would they advertise who they are?

There was a thread some time ago about PDs. I revealed that I'm diagnosed with Borderline PD. Several well-meaning people told me that I don't seem that way and it was probably a misdiagnosis. But if that diagnosis is correct and people think I'm a loving person, it interferes with the conventional wisdom about Borderlines. This becomes a case where "be all you can be" does not apply, because there is a label for who you are, whether or not you yourself care to be that way.

I know who I am. Society does too. Society's pretty damn hateful of people like me. I've been taught that my symptoms are a burden and I'd better shape up. But then told by therapists that certain mental illnesses are permanent conditions and will never go away. Unlike infidelity, mental illness is not a choice. So if the symptoms are a burden but they won't go away, then why not hide them? Doesn't mean they aren't there, just means they're not bothering other people.

I don't know if that makes sense. Hiding isn't necessarily done with bad intentions.

Don't admire the way I am. It is because of my childhood that I am this way.

I don't see it as strength, I have always seen it as survival. If you can't accept me for who I am, I would rather you not be around me. Being raised by a NPD mother teaches you to know yourself well.

I am glad that it has raised questions for you, for me, the best way to go through life is not hiding who you are. Personally, I really like who you are silver

First we are to unconditionally love ourselves. Healthy unconditional love can and should have boundaries. If my BH felt like I didn't have the capacity for fidelity then he absolutely should protect himself regardless of his love for me, because first he loves himself. I hurt him tremendously and deeply - I never want to see anyone, most of all me, hurt him like that again. I would not expect him to love, honor, and cherish me at the expense of himself.

Unconditional love can exist within a marriage. But a marriage isn't and shouldn't be unconditional. I love my husband - absolutely and completely and that will never change. I know him well enough and have seen enough of his soul to know that I'll always love him. However in the context of our marriage we have issues and there are conditions to our marriage (no more cheating, no lies, respect each other).

I agree with this, mostly. I don't unconditionally love myself, I have expectations of myself, and I have learned the hard way that I can let myself down in the most cruel and awful way possible. I used to accept myself unconditionally, not so much anymore, I watch my back now. I realize I have the capability to betray myself.

I don't see that as conditions on my marriage, those are conditions on my H, and myself. Therefore, not unconditional.