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First we are to unconditionally love ourselves. Healthy unconditional love can and should have boundaries. If my BH felt like I didn't have the capacity for fidelity then he absolutely should protect himself regardless of his love for me, because first he loves himself. I hurt him tremendously and deeply - I never want to see anyone, most of all me, hurt him like that again. I would not expect him to love, honor, and cherish me at the expense of himself.

Unconditional love can exist within a marriage. But a marriage isn't and shouldn't be unconditional. I love my husband - absolutely and completely and that will never change. I know him well enough and have seen enough of his soul to know that I'll always love him. However in the context of our marriage we have issues and there are conditions to our marriage (no more cheating, no lies, respect each other).

I agree with this, mostly. I don't unconditionally love myself, I have expectations of myself, and I have learned the hard way that I can let myself down in the most cruel and awful way possible. I used to accept myself unconditionally, not so much anymore, I watch my back now. I realize I have the capability to betray myself.

I don't see that as conditions on my marriage, those are conditions on my H, and myself. Therefore, not unconditional.

There are many posts on SI that disparage people with mental illnesses - usually their WSs (so the anger at the mental illness might really be anger at their WS's hurtful choices), but saying that these people have no soul, do not know how to love. Mostly referring to people with Borderline PD or Narcissistic PD. If a person were to have one of these diagnoses and then be given the label of "having no soul" or "not knowing how to love", then why on Earth would they advertise who they are?

I have to state I am not a shrink nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I find the whole personality disorder thing dicey. I think you need a very qualified doctor that's dealing with more than a snapshot to be at all confident.

NPD is thrown around so much it's lost all it's cache and SA is a close runner up.

There are absolutely people that have no soul and are evil. Those people are NOT personality disordered or mentally ill, to me at all. Unless they also think they're Napoleon. They're quite with it to a terrifying degree and function just fine. Because society has an issue with these folks (understandably) lets label them instead of actually accepting some people live to fuck up others if the need arises, or boredom which ever comes first.

Silver, you have a beautiful soul. If anyone doubts that they lack reading comprehension.

I would wager quite a few people think they possess unconditional love for their spouse...right up until they don't. In fact, I've read that so many times on here I've lost count. He/she lost my unconditional love. First time I had to read that about 5 times. How, exactly, does that happen...if its unconditional than how does someone lose...never mind.

I loved my ex. I saw enough to know that was a very bad idea. I still see how amazing he can be. How funny, smart, skilled, talented he is. I also remember. I know even if those issues were fixed I would always remember. His narrative with me makes loving him dilute what that word means to me. Doesn't make any judgement or statement about him. I don't want that overlay to be part of his future. Or mine. Fresh eyes are needed. I don't wish him harm. I just don't have the resources to love two people at the same time and isn't that what you'd end up doing if you have unconditional love for an ex? I think many here aren't a fan of loving two people. I'm not for certain.

After sleeping on it, I'm looking at my son, and he seems to know what unconditional love is. Which scares me. If his understanding of love is better than mine (and that's not hard to believe), then am I corrupting his understanding of it with my examples?

Maybe it's not that we're learning as much as I thought. More like sometimes our FOO unlearns us, and then we have to relearn it later. Recognizing it when it's shown to us... It's confusing when someone does something that hurts and then calls it love. It distorts our understanding.

Not sure if I am threadjacking here or not but...

Silver, I don't think you need to worry so much about corrupting him so long as you are honest with him. I believe that his understanding is a natural state, very common. If you are struggling with the understanding now, it is because (IMNSHO) you have had "authority figures" in your life that mislead you in a very convincing fashion by manufacturing and manipulating data. One only needs to take a passing interest in the zero tolerance topic to see how often this sort of thing goes on, where certain concepts appear to be very clear, and yet after repeated "data manipulations" and misleading rhetoric large numbers of people end up buying in to the strangest ideas. So long as you do not pull abusive crap while twisting his dependence on you into some sort of "proof of love", I think you will do just fine.

Why does unconditional love need to be attained in a M?

I would even call it a negative, but that may be my ego clawing on the chalkboard. What is the value of receiving unconditional love? It may have some benefits, kind of like having a credit card in someone else's name, but wouldn't it mean so much more if the love you received was because you were worthy of and deserved it.

but wouldn't it mean so much more if the love you received was because you were worthy of and deserved it.

Word

UO,

I want to thank you for this thread. You made me realize in a meaningful and powerful way that I live on the other side of this dynamic.

I grew up in the pure hell of a home with a schizophrenic mother. I was afraid all the time. Panic and terror were just under the surface. As a small child I had a very small bag of coping skills. The most important were my ability to disassociate and to project. I desperately needed to live in a kind, gentle, loving world and that’s what I projected on the world and the people I connected with, whether it was true or not.

I carried these same limited coping skills into my adult life. As horrible and dysfunctional and unfair as it is to others that’s all I had. I’m not sure I would have survived without the ability to project. It's something I must work on now.

Thanks again.

Borderman

[This message edited by borderman at 5:15 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

I don't see it as strength, I have always seen it as survival. If you can't accept me for who I am, I would rather you not be around me. Being raised by a NPD mother teaches you to know yourself well.

It sounds like she really put you through a lot, TG. I can see why being upfront and not hiding who you are is important to you. We choose whatever way of survival we can to handle the things or people (parents) that are out of our control.

I like you as you are as well, TG.

There are absolutely people that have no soul and are evil. Those people are NOT personality disordered or mentally ill, to me at all. Unless they also think they're Napoleon. They're quite with it to a terrifying degree and function just fine.

It really is scary, the way it doesn't take a mental illness to make a "monster". Some people do it just because they can and they're still grounded in reality. Or if the person in question really does have a mental illness, not all bad choices are made because of the mental illness. They're made like any other bad choice - done because the person CHOSE to.

One only needs to take a passing interest in the zero tolerance topic to see how often this sort of thing goes on, where certain concepts appear to be very clear, and yet after repeated "data manipulations" and misleading rhetoric large numbers of people end up buying in to the strangest ideas.

I've heard of this before. There was some kind of study in our class where random, well-known facts were read on recordings by people with different accents, both correct and incorrect facts. For the incorrect facts that were read with a "sophisticated" accent, the test-taker was more likely to doubt their own knowledge and believe the sophisticated voice, because they deemed that voice more authoritative.

That's why it's so important to be careful with our kids. They don't have a choice when they depend on us. If we lead them wrong or warp their sense of love and safety, we've abused our authority.

I would wager quite a few people think they possess unconditional love for their spouse...right up until they don't. In fact, I've read that so many times on here I've lost count. He/she lost my unconditional love. First time I had to read that about 5 times. How, exactly, does that happen...if its unconditional than how does someone lose...never mind.

True!! Does seem kind of backwards!

I said on the last page that I unconditionally loved the people in my family until... Seems I have something wrong there. Either my love was conditional all along, or else I still do love them now and it's still there but I've realized it's not safe to be around them. The latter seems very likely.

Perhaps we talk about "unconditional love" because it seems so ideal. Like such a divine love. While other types of love you have to work for and CHOOSE.

Is love between parents/grandparents and children supposed to be unconditional? And in our upbringings, was it? I know we're talking about it here in the context of marriages, but since our FOO tends to follow us... If we expected a certain type from home, we might expect the same type in our M.

ETA:

Thank you guys for accepting me. In spite of my mental illness. I've learned a lot from you guys, and I'll always appreciate your wisdom.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 10:54 PM, September 13th (Friday)]