SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

People change, but not that much.

I hope you are wrong. I want to change and be better. I have to believe I can change the parts of myself that chose to sling hate and anger at a woman I never met.

AP was getting the same thing the WS was getting. Exactly what they wanted. People do what they want. And yes,

People change, but not that much.

They don't? Hmmmm. I seem to remember reading post after post from BS's stating how much this "changed" them. How friends and family don't recognize them. Granted, this obviouosly is not something they're thrilled about but it's a change none the less.

Life changes us. Our experiences change us. That's impossible to ignore or deny. How it changes us is our choice. People can look in the mirror and say, yuck. Don't like this person looking back at me. I'm not going to be this person anymore.

Or they just go forward content to blame others for all the shit that happens to them because of them. Being a victim of anything can be a highly addictive thing. No accountability. No ownership. No responsibility.

I read the book Night by Eli Wiesel. That book imprinted on my very soul. The suffering he endured. The pain he witness. The losses he experienced. Dear God. Then I heard him say this in one of his speeches..."When a person doesn't have gratitude, something is missing in his or her humanity."

I'm not dismissing the pain that I see here every day. If I didn't respect it and wasn't moved by it I'd have left long ago. I understand the horror betrayal can inflict. The pain. Eli Wiesel witnessed atrocities that are truly unimaginable and wrote so beautifully of his anger and blame he felt for God, yet he survived. He survived and has spent his life fighting for the rights of others. And yet he feels tremendous gratitude. How humbling that is. How inspiring. How helpful. There is always something we have to be grateful for. Regardless of how dark things are and how alone we feel. While we talk of hope I honestly believe it's gratitude that saves us and changes us. Forever.

I don't feel bad for WS or AP that are "preyed upon" nor do I think they are less than 100% responsible for choosing to mess around. An affair cannot be forced, or it changes from affair to rape.

I agree with this.

And that's not me (a WS) "defending" my former AP. That's me saying that I, as the married party, had a responsibility to my marriage that the AP did not have. It could be argued that he had a responsibility to be a decent human being and, thereby, not engage in an affair with a married woman. But that, to me, is different than saying he had an equal share of responsibility for me upholding the marriage vows that I freely made with my XH.

HELLO?! Your husband was looking to have an affair, or else he wouldn't have been in one!

Uhmmm NO. He wasn't looking for an affair, and YES, he was preyed upon by an OW who wanted my life.

This was the case in my WH AP as well. I hate the OW, she kept on and kept on with my husband and one day she got her foot in the door. It was a day we were having issues with family stuff and that was all it took. He had been talking to her on the phone for a week and one day i was texting him from work telling him how unhappy i was becoming with a current situation and he suggested a break to try and think without being in each others faces. He told her and on my next day off she magically appeared in our town and asked to meet up for lunch. He said okay, she suggested a hotel, he didn't say no and that was the first time WH allowed his dick out of his pants and into hers. I hate her to say the least and wish nothing but heartache and great emotional damage...human being or not!

I don't mean to t/j but I am interested in if anyone is of the belief that if a Wayward is groomed, and preyed upon.... Does that does mitigate that wayward's level of responsibility as opposed to a wayward that just straight up chooses to cheat?

No, it doesn't mitigate responsibility, but yes, people do get coerced, manipulated and even blackmailed into affairs.

Many people are not healthy or strong psychologically. In my experience, children who are abused (emotionally, physically or sexually) and don't have any adult they can trust, grow up broken in certain ways. They can become predators out of desperation, or prey out of worthlessness.

Both OW and fWH in our situation were children of abusive alcoholics. Both were abandoned. They grew up with low self-worth, destructive coping skills, and poor boundaries.

Their nightmare childhoods were not their choice or their fault. However, as adults, we are all responsible for our emotional and mental health. OW and fWH should have sought significant, long term support and counseling to become stronger, healthier people.

Instead of facing the past and learning to be fully emotionally functional, they denied and suppressed their damage. They chose to remain as ticking time bombs--under a certain amount of pressure, they were going to explode and do a lot of harm to themselves and others.

And they did. Out of intense fear of being alone, OW coerced fWH into a compromising position and then blackmailed him to keep him. Out of lack of boundaries and self-destruction, fWH became OW's puppet. They were two broken people, locked in a dysfunctional, pitiful echo of the abusive relationships of their childhoods.

They are both fully accountable for their actions. But, I also feel compassion for both of them. Especially when I look at my sweet innocent children and think about what was happening to OW and fWH at their ages. Having understanding and feeling compassion doesn't diminish their full responsibility.

Everyone's situation although similar is different

I'm only 2 weeks post dday and have not reached indifference re AP

My FWH is a damaged child as described by sailorgirl and chose to deny this leaving him vulnerable. He shouldn't have cheated obviously but he was easy prey

And my god did she prey on him. When they initially became "friends" he told me about her and I welcomed her into my home, offered to help her and tried to befriend her. She rejected my overtures. This was over a year before the PA started. Even then she had set her sights on my husband. I didn't realise that he was still in contact with her and the EA started a few months later. She did the whole damsel in distress act and drew him in. But throughout the A and after she hates me. Ok some of this is based on what FWH says but also from the texts she sent and the phone calls before I blocked her. She sees herself as the wounded party. She was vicious to me

My crime - I'm successful and I used to be fat which she despised and then I lost weight and she hated me even more for being slim and successful. I did nothing to her yet she hated me.

In some ways I'd blame her less if she actually had loved him. I know he wasn't hers to love but during the peak of the A FWH ended up in hospital due to a breakdown. She didn't contact him or visit him when he was at his lowest. Why he went back to her after that I can't understand.

I tend to think that most people who were "preyed upon" are full of shoot and giving the BS what they want to hear.

Maybe wonderpets

But not what I wanted to hear. My FWH is so damaged and ill due to his childhood and has been in denial about this that his boundaries were non existent.

He's aware he has to man up now but it doesn't make it easier on me seeing how broken he is

And OW has form. I was warned. I told him but he wanted to be the KISA. Rather than face his shit. Now his shit is even greater and I'm drowning in it too

Not a good thing

I'm 5 yrs from dday and now D for the second time in my life because of infidelity.

I too believe the OP is just a low life that took advantage of a person with poor boundaries and has many other issues.

It was still the WS's choice to cheat and lie knowing their actions could result in divorce.

Many WS won't do any work to fix themselves and others become better people because of what happened.

I agree the total blame is on the WS of an affair.

If an OP ends up with a WS that has no remorse, they get what they deserve.

JMO

Gma

Oh yes 100% responsible for his decision to cheat.

But I'm responsible for years of enabling him through my codependency.

And that needs addressing but is much harder to do so because he's cheated.

But I don't have to like the OW do I?

And I'm scared of her attacking me more because she knows where I live and my mobile number although her number is blocked she can still get to me. And I don't want my kids to know

[This message edited by Marathonwaseasy at 4:26 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]

Well..I didn't have this problem. My WH cheated on me with a man. A man from craigslist,at that. I knew within 2 minutes on dday that this OM could have been anybody..he was just willing and convenient. I have never felt hatred towards him..disgust..and anger..sure..but no hate.

However...I have been a member of SI long enough..and have read many,many stories here to know there are some OW who are predatory. And I think it's important to know that not all OW are the same. Some stalk the BW..and the kids. Some do this for YEARS. Hell..not to long ago a BW posted in JFO that the OW confronted her in her HOME with her kids there...walked INTO her house and confronted her and the kids in the kitchen. THAT is NOT a "blameless OW."

I think if an OW knows the man is married and goe ahead with the affair,she IS to blame for HER actions. No..she didn't make the commitment..so what? I have a dog. When he is outside,I trust that my neighbor won't come over and kick him. Why shouldn't I also expect her to not come over and fuck my husband?

People may not "owe" other people respect and decency..but that doesn't mean they are not responsible for their own actions.

ETA: I do think that telling a newly betrayed wife that she is a terrible person for hating the OW who was fucking her husband is bullshit. Some sensitivity..and perhaps remembering what it was like for *you* during those early days might be a good idea. Some compassion is needed to post in JFO.

[This message edited by confused615 at 4:18 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]

People may not "owe" other people respect and decency..but that doesn't mean they are not responsible for their own actions.

I think that was beautifully put confused615.

I have a dog. When he is outside,I trust that my neighbor won't come over and kick him. Why shouldn't I also expect her to not come over and fuck my husband?

exactly!

p.s I was also shocked at the JFO, not very cool

[This message edited by lauren123 at 4:34 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]

-t/j -

Thanks,lauren123.

Me too!

I am interested in if anyone is of the belief that if a Wayward is groomed, and preyed upon.... Does that does mitigate that wayward's level of responsibility as opposed to a wayward that just straight up chooses to cheat?

I have stated repeatedly on this forum that I blame OW at least as much, if not more for what happened, because yes, she went after him when he was at the lowest point of life after losing his mother and DD.

But does this mitigate his responsibility? Well, no I have never looked at it that way. First of all, it seems like many of these posts are implying that people early on blame the AP rather than their "victimized" spouse. Yet that did not describe me. I was 100% angry at my H at first and didn't have too much energy to even think about the whore's part in it. In fact I really did not know that she "went after" him rather than the other way around in the beginning. It was after investigating the story on my own, seeing my H's responses to things, and just how the puzzle somewhat came together that I LATER determined this nasty woman went after him the way she did when he most certainly was not out there looking for someone (who could be anyone, as so many say) to have an A with. No, he did not have an A with anyone, it was her in those circumstances.

And he has never once painted himself as a victim. If he did, I think that would have angered me. When someone is truly remorseful, truly sorry for what they have done, they will not paint themselves as a victim. Yet, still, he and I know what she did and how she did it, and how he fell for the ego stroking. The point here is, and the only reason that I R'ed with my H is because he is remorseful. He gets it. He learned his lesson and gives me every reason to believe no matter what his state of mind, no matter how much somebody attempts to groom or manipulate he won't fall for it. In fact he has learned a lot and learned how to recognize those signs long before it might become a slippery slope. That is the reason I R'ed with my H, not because I feel he was victimized by the whore.

I also said in a previous post that it matters to me which one is the initial pursurer (in cases where it was not necessarily mutual at first). It just does and is one of those details that makes me judge whichever one "went looking for it" a bit more harshly than the one who allowed themselves to fall for it.

I have always believed that indifference is the goal towards the OW. Is that compatible with continued hatred/anger? I am not saying its not, just wondering how it is managed?

I also say I hate the whore. Part of it started with pure jealousy. At the time of anger at my H, I was also like most of us, I suppose in wondering what the hell does she have that I don't have? I wanted to believe she was a horrible person, but at first, I was not really sure she was! It was not until I "investigated" and found out more about her that I determined she truly is a low life trailer trash whore, probably a drunk, and definitely a high school dropout. Not to mention someone who would chase a married man the way she did.

I say I hate her but this is not the kind of hate that is consuming. I don't plot revenge and I suppose in reality it is more like indifference. But I can tell you I would take pleasure in hearing more bad things about her, even now, 7 years out and happily R'ed with my H. I take pleasure in the fact the only name she has is "Whore." Is that indifference, hatred, or neither? To me, hating someone, anyone just doesn't have anything to do with my day to day interactions, love and intimacy in my marriage. Maybe most everything in my life is compartmentalized, but not in a contradictoray way. They are separate things and I don't even see why it would be considered imcompatible or have much to do with R'ing in my M. Just my perspective here.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 6:41 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]

I wanted to add that OW stalked fWH after d-day, repeatedly threatened to hurt herself if he wouldn't see her, had her mother contact him to beg him to go to her, had coworkers calling him, tried to physically prevent him from leaving when she found him in the parking lot at work, etc. (he remained completely NC, and when she showed up he would only say, "I'm going home.")

Her behavior would be wrong and unhealthy whether he was married or not. As would the manipulation she used throughout their "relationship".

fWH's is at fault for being too weak to withstand her tactics. Her tactics were never sexual or seductive, by the way. Instead she elicited pity and sorrow and churned up all the pain fWH had because no one ever rescued him as a hurting child.

OW is responsible for demanding that someone else fill the emptiness inside her (literally and figuratively).

My disgust for the OW and my disgust for WH are not dependent on each other-it's separate.

Marriage is not just a romantic pairing-it is a legal and sociatal contract as well. If our WS let the AP in our house and they shot us you can bet they both would be held responsible. This is just as damaging and there are laws against it-they're just not enforced because the damage is not obvious to others.

I haven't formally promised anyone I won't assault them but it's not only governed by laws-it's part of being a healthy person and citizen. Interfere with and destroy any other contract and see what happens-even if one of the partners aided the outsider.

What people forget about our freedoms is the constitution states we have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as it doesn't interfere with another's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I'd say the AP assisted with the interfering and actions have consequences.

If the poor widdle AP receives scorn, etc from the BS I think they got off easy

[This message edited by trumanshow at 8:01 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]

Thank you Trumanshow for expressing what I was thinking.

This is such an interesting and provocative thread.

I can only speak for my own experience and my own journey into the hell that is infidelity.

The OW had been in our home. My XH thought she would be a good mentor for our then 14 yr old daughter. He fostered a relationship between OW and DD for the 5 yrs of the PA. OW took my daughter to leadership conferences and would visit my daughter her freshman year college. DD knew about the affair and confronted her dad before I knew he was cheating.

In the beginning I held the OW responsible on many many many levels. The scope of her involvement with our family was too broad. Hating her and blaming her was natural. It was primal.

We are mammals and to be excluded from the pack or the tribe or the community equals death.

But my feelings began to morph as I worked hard to heal. The blame shifted (and I am speaking of my personal experience only) gradually to my XH. And now, 2 yrs out, all the blame rests exclusively on his shoulders. He was in contract with me - legally, spiritually and culturally as he would always declare the importance of monogamy.

OW owed me human decency and an understanding of universal sisterhood. But she did not sign nor swear anything to me. I do not hold her at fault. She is not to blame.

No spell was cast.

That being said - I am not evolved enough to wish her well. Truth is, I wish her a lifetime of misery. And as shallow as this sounds : one of the most glorious days of my life was when she was subpoenaed for our court date. She was fucking terrified and mortified but I thought so fitting for the woman who XH had been banging 5+ yrs.

But even given my distain for her it is XH who deserves responsibility. 100% responsibility rests on that man. He tore apart our sweet family. He knew my absolute devotion to him. He knew the one thing I could not bear was for him to be in love with another.

He was however, shocked that my not bearing the betrayal would not result in me begging and contorting to reconcile. My reaction was to kick his self absorbed ass out of this precious little cottage.

So, again, I am speaking only of my situation and healing path. But I would shout from the rooftop that it wasn't his slunt (thanks SI for giving me a whole new language!!!) that blew apart my world. It was the man who vowed to stay with me forever. The affair was entirely his fault.

I remain full of hate for OW while my feelings towards WH shift from anger to pity to love. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that I see what my WH is going through. I have seen him make remarkable changes in the past year and watched him get more grey hair, lose his perfect vision, gain weight; all things I know are consequences of his guilt. I don't know anything about her. I assume that she's just the same selfish bitch that she was during their affair. Maybe she's somewhere doing the work and making amends to her BS. I don't care enough to find out so I keep her in the same place she was in the month after DDAy.

I agree with self-rescuer. At first I blamed the OM - in a way of 'rescuing' my WW. Now, I put the whole thing on her. She has worked to save the marriage, so we are working to save the marriage. She has always taken the blame. The only thing is I wish she would see that a lot of the negative crap in her head that drove the A forward was there previously for a long time and made for a suboptimal marriage partner that I suffered with.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 6:20 PM, September 29th (Sunday)]