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I would not leave if she had cancer. I would not leave if she had diabetes. I would not leave if she was disfigured in an accident. I would not leave even if any of those things were caused by her own actions.

If I would not leave due to physical brokenness why would I leave because of emotional brokenness?

If she is working to over come her obsticals in life than I will stand by her side. But if by staying I am just enabling her than the loving thing to do is leave.

I cannot tell you how thankful I am for all your responses. weather angry or not. every comment is giving me new perspective and I am realising things about myself and him I didn't know existed. or realise they existed.

This is why I asked the question. with how I was raised to fight or flight. My first thought is LEAVE! don't take this crap! Through talking to you all and reading your responces I can get a better understanding as to what is going on in my household and his head

we are 3 weeks out so it is very fresh. And I honestly never considered strength. Because of how strongly I feel about being treated poorly after a full 30 yrs worth of it.including my time with my BH. The affection was next to nothing which is what made me reach out to another man ( though understanding the why does not make it ok. I understand that) but thats not the issue at hand right now.

to answer the question did you think you wouldn't get caught. No! we thought we would be done with each other before that happend. also yes I expected him to leave if he did. He is far to hot headed (typically) except through this he has turned into a calmer person. we will continue to learn to understand each other. get to know one another again.

Thank you all once again for your help and understanding. and for helping ME to understand and have a couple of epiphanies of my own

Chico!!!

Your response is beautiful! TY!

Gently, perhaps the reason you feel like his staying is a sign of weakness is because you are realizing that you have stayed in an unhappy marriage because of weakness. Instead of being strong enough to tell him you were unhappy, you did something you believed would make him leave you. You abdicated responsibility for your marriage, and put him in the position of having to be 'strong enough' to pull the plug. You stayed because you were weak, and you had an affair to make yourself feel powerful. Arm chair psychology. I don't really know. We're all weak, aren't we? And we're all strong. We just have to take responsibility for our choices.

I'd also like to add, in personal defense of my XBH (not that he needs my validation) that it does take strength to leave as well. My X did not "take the easy way out" when he divorced me. The easy way out would have been for him to stay married and rugsweep and allow both of us to ignore what I had done. It took a lot of strength and conviction for him to leave the M even though he knew how I wanted to reconcile. Reconciliation or divorce both take strength, IMO.

The affection was next to nothing which is what made me reach out to another man

I think any councilor and book on the subject will tell you that, while the lack of affection may have made you unhappy, you alone are why you cheated. You dealt with your unhappiness in a very unhealthy and detrimental manner instead of working on it with your husband, a councilor, or someone that could assist in getting your marriage back on track. Instead of working it out, and/or simply leaving, you chose to betray your vows and your husband, and probably yourself. You took the 'easy' feelgood path.

This was not the fault of a lack of affection, or the fault of your BH. It was you. It was your decision. It was your unhealthy choice.

I think you need to realize that before you can consider reconciling. Reconciling is much more than your H simply forgiving you. It is a great deal of work for YOU. You need to examine why you chose the A. You need to work through those issues and determine new, healthy ways to express yourself. The heartbreak may be your husbands, but the work is mostly yours, and it's much more than reassuring your husband that you're sorry and you love him.

I hope you succeed, I do. I think perhaps the reading library here would be a great starting point for you.

Good luck - and always ask if you want to know something. As you can see, we BSs aren't afraid of giving a straightforward answer

Trust me when I say this. It takes far more strength to stay than it does to go.

Excuse me while I say bull*%$#. There is no status quo when it comes to staying or leaving. It's based on the individuals and situation. For some, they truly are staying because they are weak. For others, they are staying because they are strong, have a remorseful WS and have something worth saving.

Nobody can slap a "one size fits all" label on infidelity and it's just as insulting for somebody to say you are weak for leaving.... as it is to say you are weak for staying.

Great question. I would think we all have our own reasons. I have a few things to say on the topic, but first let me address weakness.

Think real hard about that word. What is weakness? Is it weak staying in an M because you get to see your kids every day? Is it staying until you have your ducks in a row or find a replacement? Is it weak staying, at least for a while because you are scared of what to do next? Who knows why you H is staying. IMO, the question you need to ask yourself is what are you going to do in your shoes, not his? Ask him about his? Don't try to guess.

Now for my reasons for staying.

The first few days? Confusion.

The next following those? Fear.

After a few weeks, I simply stopped caring about her and I needed time to make sure I knew where all my money and resources were, how the D would end up and who would get the most time with the kids. I was buying time, because I am not an off the cuff guy, I plan, I am deliberate and don't take shit from people who treat me poorly like my W. Basically, I played along, sat on the couch with her and watched her cry (cried with her because I was hurt and in pain) all the while planning for leaving and taking the most of our resources with me. I was confused about love and staying and all that, but under all that I was getting ready to leave if she did not decide to truly bow down and beg for me to allow her to stay.

A little while after D-day I gave my W a list of 10 things she needed to do or I was going to seek for her to leave the house and D. I sent her away and told her think about them carefully. She left for a few hours came back crying and said she would.

She did them for a while - this list was impossible to maintain - but we reduced them down eventually to something manageable.

She was afraid of losing her family and I could see it. To be frank I did not care. F - her. She was outwardly doing what I told her but she was doing not thinking for herself. She was not talking to me about discovering her "why" she was not digging into how she could be so immoral and violate herself that way. I had the papers drawn up and talked to her about how I had thought a lot about D and she needed to see an attorney because I wanted it to be equitable. Like it or not she was my kids mom and would be until she died.

She didn't like that much and she slowly started to change and learn that she was really the problem. Then she started talking to me about that. At first I scared her off and made her cry a lot more, but eventually I got to a point where I listened to her pain about herself. That was the turning point for me.

We are in R. I could still leave any day. There are no guarantee's but at this point I am thinking I will keep her around. The power differential has changed substantially in our M. She asks permission still for most things. I don't abuse it and we are working to balance it back out. I think handing over power to the BS is just about all areas is a great first move. As trust is earned back, the balance can return.

My point in all this is that it will change. Change is the only constant in the universe. IMO let go of the outcomes you see, the why he stays, etc and focus on what the hell you did and how you allowed yourself to betray the most important person in your life: yourself.

Let him know you are working on it and then when you figure it out, or as you figure it out, let him know about it.

take care...

heartbroken0903, I think it's really noble that you want to defend your XBH. However, most would say that leaving is a form of rugsweeping. It isn't dealing with the pain, it's just walking away from it. I agree - it takes more strength than staying and rugsweeping, which takes no effort at all, but if he didn't do some work to help himself heal from the pain, then he did basically rugsweep - just away from you.

I hope he (and you) are doing better now.

When I found out and confronted, the first thing I asked myself in the shock was, can I stay?

I never, not ever, thought I could. But, deep down, I wasn't willing to end it on the spot.

I gave him the new rules, my rules. And he has kept every one. It's not been a cake walk, for either of us.

I may always have one foot in and one foot out of this marriage. I will never, ever, trust another soul like I did him, again, ever.

He will never have to worry that I will do this to him, I will never say the same for him. The impossible has already happened.

To stay, to know, to come to terms with the betrayal, I live it every day. Yes, for me, it is much harder to stay.

But,

My love for this man, His visible love for me and our children, the work he's done, the true horror I see and hear from him for this, is true remorse. He deserves the chance, so I am giving it to him. But only once.

For me, the circumstances are such that I can take that chance. For some, not so much. It's personal, and different for all.

I have to say, that I too always said I would leave. Even as I watched it all around me, but, when I had to make the choice, and it was mine, make no mistake. I chose to work through it. But, so did he.

You need to ask yourself, if this was your way to exit the marriage. What are you willing to do to earn his trust and keep his love? And if it's too hard, what is your backup plan. If you have one, let him go now. Don't destroy him further, because that is where he is. You have a lot to go through yet, hold on for his & your life or let go. Tell him absolutely everything he asks you, everything. No matter what.

You will get no bad advice here, that is for sure. And blowing smoke up some of our Ass's doesn't go so well.

Be true & be honest, to save your marriage and make it much better than it was before you made your fateful decisions.

I wish you the best.

[This message edited by fourever at 1:28 PM, October 24th (Thursday)]

Nobody can slap a "one size fits all" label on infidelity and it's just as insulting for somebody to say you are weak for leaving.... as it is to say you are weak for staying.

hi Lieshurt - no one said leaving was weak. The comment you replied to said it takes more strength to stay, but never said leaving was weak.

I think staying and working through it, or leaving after a well thought out determination of what is and isn't acceptable in one's life, or after trying and realizing the WS isn't remorseful - both are amazingly strong. It takes guts to look at what has happened, as painful as it is, and make a real decision and make it work. It does - truly.

I'm sure no offense was meant by saying that it takes more strength to stay, and of course, anything but rugsweeping is really quite strong regardless of the outcome.

My first thought is LEAVE! don't take this crap!

The affection was next to nothing which is what made me reach out to another man

These contradict.

If your marriage was bad enough to "make" you reach out to another man, then the strong thing to do would be either to address the issue, or leave. Cheating was the weak choice. Cheating, sneaking around, rugsweeping, in general not confronting the real issue - those are the weak choices.

Perhaps your husband is thinking of your two children, and that is why he is staying? I suggest you ask him why, instead of assuming he is weak. I can assure you that trying to reconcile is not for the weak.

I can see a couple sides of this argument. After my Wxh's first A, I stayed. I gave him a chance to be the husband that I needed him to be, repair the relationship, and fix his shit.

He had a second Affair, and I divorced him.

Staying was difficult, divorcing him was difficult. The entire experience of the affair was soul-crushing.

I will say that the reason that I divorced him was because he didn't own his shit. My advice to you would be to own your shit, and be remorseful. Be the wife that you should have been throughout the entire marriage. You have been given a gift - don't squander it.

[This message edited by Williesmom at 1:31 PM, October 24th (Thursday)]

hi Lieshurt - no one said leaving was weak. The comment you replied to said it takes more strength to stay, but never said leaving was weak.

No, it was just inferred.."it takes true strength of character to stay" or that leaving is just running away from the problem.

No, it was just inferred.."it takes true strength of character to stay" or that leaving is just running away from the problem.

If that's how you read it. What you've quoted here isn't in the statement you quoted, but if you feel slighted by it, then you do.

Leaving can be just running away from the problem, just as staying can be completely ignoring it.

Honestly, fighting amongst BSs to see who is weaker? Really? Seems to me that staying or leaving sucks all the way around because someone we loved was without question weak. Beyond that, is arguing the best answer?

I think many of us BS, well me certainly,had/have mixed motives,whether we stayed or left. But whatever choice we made/are making, it's a devastating, phenomenomally hard choice to make. Whatever choice is made, it's a brave choice. there are no weak choices for a BS...unless they choose to rugsweep. But that only puts things off, it's a form of denial.

At DDay we BS are brought face to face with all our failings. We look long and hard at ourselves (even if we know, logically, that the WS chose to cheat)to see what flaws in us contributed to our marriage reaching this state. We shouldn't blame ourselves, but we often do, for a time. But it does have an upside: In looking at ourselves and our weaknesses,we know that we're not perfect and it's easier to accept that our WS isn't perfect either. That we wouldn't want someone to walk out on us for our shoddy coping mechanisms, that we can change...so maybe our WScan change too. And for some of us, that gives us a slither of hope that we can hold onto, to keep us going for a time.

But that slither, is just that. Thin, fragile, breakable. And as time passes, if nothing changes, it breaks and we may fall away. That's why it's so important for WS to do the work and make real changes.

But whether we choose to stay or go, we have to find strength just to get up every day, just to keep one foot in front of the other, just to keep functioning. And then we have to think about our future and what that might look like - all whilst feeling like a tornado has just ripped everything away from us.

But I don't know that you can ever understand if you've not been a BS. I've seen and helped many people (incl close friends) through the devastation of infidelity. I saw some of how it was, I heard their agonies. But I had NO IDEAof how it felt until it happened to me. It's something you just have to take on trust and hope never happens to you.

Honestly, fighting amongst BSs to see who is weaker? Really? Seems to me that staying or leaving sucks all the way around because someone we loved was without question weak. Beyond that, is arguing the best answer?

I actually think that conversation is very instructive for a new WS like nicjean83. It sheds some insight into the awful position they put the BS and the sooner a WS can realize that the better.

The strength comes in the ability to make the choice for ourselves.

Nicjean83 - I responded and did not say hello - how rude. Welcome and there is some strength in you trying to figure this mess out.

Remember, we all fail. The real crime happens when we don't own it and try to make it right.

take care....

I'm not arguing with anybody painfulpast. I've simply stated my opinion on the matter. On the other hand, you seem to believe I'm not capable of reading comprehension as you feel the need to "interpret" other people's comments for me. Believe me, I don't need you to do that.

I'm not going to address this anymore in this post. If you have any further issues with what I have to say, please do not hesitate to message me directly.

nicjean83, my apologies for the t/j.

The hostilities are a bit shocking really.

Staying is amazingly hard - if you do the work. OP, is your husband doing the work, or is he rugsweeping? In another post you mentioned that you are in MC - so it seems like he is doing the work.

I think this would be a great question to ask in MC actually! You say he doesn't answer the question, but maybe the MC would have better luck helping him to express his thoughts on the matter?

painfulpast...

no one is being hostile...opinions are shared and if you (general term) don't agree with them, that doesn't make them wrong.

Lets get this thread back on topic, please.