SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Noglamour

Unagie said it!

If all you could do is talk for 90 minutes. Well I would not be married right now.

As a BS, I guarantee that question wasn't out of nowhere. Expect her to go back to the beginning and question everything. I know I have. It's no picnic on this end either. The questions, lack of details, and holes nag at you every single day.

BS here. You did the crime, now do the time. It might not look like you're getting anywhere, but your BS is doing what she needs to do to get through this. Be patient - if you are truly remorseful and totally honest time will be your friend.

hopefulmother posted this on Reconciliation. It is not her quote, but she got it somewhere else. I think it might help you understand some of your BW's "whys?"

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened, and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me, and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally. Much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened those times you were with her intimately, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand that, No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain, over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering, why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking doesn't she know by now that I love her? I can see how you can feel this way, and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter, I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them, and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is, and what it means to you and if it can effect your life. Whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind, and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me, as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about those intimate times, that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of those times you spent together, and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value, is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically, I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at, and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture, you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later, when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle, you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture, as you do, but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture, and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart...you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that, I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and, slowly over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward, and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life, and to move on? Of course it would, but I can't!, and the reason I can't is because I love you!!!, and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world!!

Things were going well this evening until my BS put my son to bed.

You will repeat this sentence with a different ending for a while. After experiencing this trauma, good days or moments will be rare and will be interrupted by horrible thoughts and images, especially within the first few months or years. That is actually your brain protecting you from further pain. Fucked up isn't it? You see, when you're happy your brain will say no no no because the last time you were happy, out of no where, someone shot you down from the sky when you were in mid flight. She doesn't know it now, but someday she will fly again. She can't fly with a broken wing, yet she continues to love with a broken heart.

As I sit here crying reading this, I wish my wh would read this and hear what everyone is telling you nonglamour. I wonder if you may even be him. My wh won't even sit there for even a few minutes. He gets up and leaves as soon as I even start. He believes he has been punished enough. It is time for me to stop holding this over his head, to stop beating him with what he's done. We are only 1 year from dday. Nonglamour, Listen to everyone here. They are giving you wonderful advice. I am done with my wh. I wish it weren't so because I so wanted to R with him but he just doesn't get it and likely never will. I just can't take anymore pain. I am committed to healing myself. I had hoped he would be by my side through that process but he has made it clear through his actions that he is only concerned about himself and his own pain. His own selfishness, which isn't that what really got all ws into the situations they are in? Sorry bit of a t/j.

After experiencing this trauma, good days or moments will be rare and will be interrupted by horrible thoughts and images, especially within the first few months or years. That is actually your brain protecting you from further pain. Fucked up isn't it? You see, when you're happy your brain will say no no no because the last time you were happy, out of no where, someone shot you down from the sky when you were in mid flight. She doesn't know it now, but someday she will fly again. She can't fly with a broken wing, yet she continues to love with a broken heart.

This is so helpful, thank you.

Is it possible that she doesn't feel like your with her? Not in a physical way but emotional. After my several affairs and subsequent d-day I was emotionally not there and she knew it. Our BS need to feel us and know that we are staying because we love them and want them. My affairs had nothing to do with sex or love but that doesn't help the BS. It is a very personal hurt for them and sometimes when it feels that you are on trial step back, breath and try to answer their questions honestly, quietly and lovingly.

Im new here and would like to say I really think that there is a lot of good and encouraging advice to read and catch up on, so thanks to most of you! That said, Aubrie has some really very negative and unhelpful opinions.

"If thats the case, pack it up and walk way." Really? I don't think anyone here has the desire to walk away, we are all here trying to help each other through 2 sides of the same coin. Thats just not helpful. Also, I do suffer from PTSD, thanks to my wife helping me through it still, we recently realized what we think is the first time I started to suffer from it. I have spent years in classes, groups and individual counseling, let me tell you- You CANNOT get PTSD from Infidelity. If you did, it would be certainly a very rare and incredible case given the definition of PTSD: "PTSD develops after a terrifying ordeal that involved physical harm or the threat of physical harm." Im so sick of people claiming they have it! When you've been in combat and routinely woken up while you sleep on the ground in the middle of Afghanistan by rocket propelled grenades and mortars landing all around you, Ill gladly help you through your PTSD... Until then, I think it just adds to your post, which seems incredibly negative and over-dramatic. You cannot obtain PTSD because your partner has it or any other ridiculous reason that Ive heard many people claim. Yes, there are likely some similar symptoms that you may experience as a result of infidelity.

I've seen a few negative posts like this, that my wife (Littlemrsv) has showed me. Funnily enough it was a guy commenting on a post of hers that was persuading her to leave... Do you think that was helpful to the poster? Do you think that helped the posters spouse?

Unfortunately, my wife and I are still dealing with a stupid decision I made over 4 years ago. She shared this post with me, suspecting I could relate to the original post, which I can. I can gladly say that things will get better if you both truly love each other and really do work hard. If you ever make the decision to do something similar though, expect that IF your marriage lasts, it will take twice as much time an effort on the WS part. Sadly I know from experience. I can say that it is one of the most frustrating things to deal with when you are working to support your spouse. I understand why she needs to repeat herself and ask questions etc, but her counselor recently shared some very good advice- "If you're repeating yourself a lot we call this Cycling. When either partner is Cycling, it means that the root problem is not being solved. You need to make sure you carefully listen to each other and focus on understanding each other before you start trying to solve anything." She told us to go a whole week without doing anything to try and "solve" the others problems, just try to listen and let them know when you've understood their issue. Also she told us to let each other know every single time we did something out of "love", just to be sure that the other partner realized you were doing something for them specifically, rather than just doing things you would normally do. As couples we get so used to each other over time that we end up taking each other for granted. Littlemrsv wasn't aware of the fact that I was cleaning the whole house and keeping things clean and tip top for her, or that I filled the gas tank in her car before she had to do it herself(she didn't fill it for several months straight), she didn't relies I was making sure her phone was charging at night, or that I was buying treats etc etc etc... Just because I loved her. There were the same issues in reverse, I wasn't receiving her physical touch (hugging, kisses, holding hands etc) as a "loving act", but was taking them for granted and often even thinking "she just want something"- which is a horrible thought at all. So after a week of just listening and NO solving of any issues, reminding each other of each loving thing we did for the other, it really truly helped. This counselor is outstanding and if anyone lives in the Sacramento area, let us know if you want a good counselor, she's superb! We've had several counselors over the years, but she's the only one who we feel has honestly helped us as opposed to us just showing up and arguing with each other for an hour and then paying $$$ through the nose.

So Im here to say: DONT pack up and leave!!! Its TOTALLY NORMAL TO FEEL THAT WAY! THINGS GET BETTER!! I find that a few hours alone time recharges my batteries enough to come back and be the strong and supportive spouse my BS needs. I do still question if she will ever forgive me(and why should she) and if we will ever get better sometimes, but most of the time I really do know we love each other and are in it for the long haul. Do you fish, game, play an instrument or something? Find a hobby and escape just a few hours a week and I bet you'll be better able to deal with it.

ArmyGearhead...

You may not agree with Aubrie, however that doesn't make her experience/s any less valuable.

You are brand new here, sometimes its best to dip your toe in before criticizing others.

You CANNOT get PTSD from Infidelity. If you did, it would be certainly a very rare and incredible case given the definition of PTSD: "PTSD develops after a terrifying ordeal that involved physical harm or the threat of physical harm.

Yes you can get PTSD from cheating. Exposure to diseases certainly counts as the threat of physical harm. Exposure to the irrational behaviors of a potential bunny boiler are harmful. Infidelity is the very definition of emotional and mental abuse which are just as bad. Physical abuse or the threat of such is not the only cause of PTSD.

T/j

Post‑traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a type of anxiety disorder. It can occur after you have gone through an extreme emotional trauma that involved the threat of injury or death.

Symptoms of PTSD

1. Reliving the event, which disturbs day-to-day activity

Flashback episodes in which the event seems to be happening again and again

Repeated upsetting memories of the event

Repeated nightmares of the event

Strong, uncomfortable reactions to situations that remind you of the event

2. Avoidance

Emotional numbing or feeling as though you do not care about anything

Feeling detached

Not able to remember important parts of the event

Not interested in normal activities

Showing less of your moods

Avoiding places, people, or thoughts that remind you of the event

Feeling like you have no future

3. Hyperarousal

Always scanning your surroundings for signs of danger (hypervigilance)

Not able to concentrate

Startling easily

Feeling irritable or having outbursts of anger

Trouble falling or staying asleep

You may feel guilt about the event, including survivor guilt.

You may also have symptoms of anxiety, stress, and tension:

Agitation or excitability

Dizziness

Fainting

Feeling your heart beat in your chest

Headache

Now I understand you have PTSD and it happened during your service but please do not downplay others who have been diagnosed with it due to infidelity. This is a trauma that is hard and terrible, people develop mental disorders due to it, people have become recluses and have made entire personality changes, people have lost 50-60 pounds in a matter of weeks because their body will not hold food or allow them to eat and people have ended their lives because of it. The fact that this is a disorder you suffer from is horrible and I am sorry for that but downplaying others who are suffering as well is wrong.

As for Aubrie and her comments, this is the wayward forum, we hold no punches. If we see bullshit we call it for what it is. I personally think he should leave too if he can't stick it out for a stressful convo then why stay? It only gets worse. Sometimes you need to hear the truth no matter how harsh to get your head in the right place.

End t/j

[This message edited by Unagie at 5:46 AM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

As evidence that the waywards here pull no punches, as Unagie said, and with a slight t/j...

So Im here to say: DONT pack up and leave!!! Its TOTALLY NORMAL TO FEEL THAT WAY! THINGS GET BETTER!!

It's interesting that you're coming in here saying this, AGH (welcome), given that your marriage DID get better for you after your first Dday, but according to your recent BS's post, you hid the full truth regarding your infidelity from her for 4 YEARS, with a second Dday only 3 months ago. Are you suggesting that things get better only when you hold back the truth from your BS? In her mind, the past 4 years and "better" marriage you have/had is possibly all a lie. This argument isn't about who has/does not have PTSD. It doesn't matter at all, except us waywards completely destroy EVERYTHING our BS ever knew, or thought they knew, and now they're trying to figure out what is/is not real. We've taken away every safety that they thought they had, and truly shown them how little we thought of them at the time of our infidelity.

Also, in regards to your "excellent" counselor, AGH- I'm glad that she's working for you and your BW, but I can't imagine that keeping track of every loving thing you do for your spouse, then letting them know about it, is actually helpful. This is just "keeping score," and might allow for justification of future bad behavior- "hey! I put gas in the car 13 times over the past 3 months to show you that I love you! So what if I looked at porn or held back a little of the truth that I owe you? I love you!" Love isn't about keeping score- so what if my BW doesn't notice that I charge her phone? Simply telling her that is a way for YOU to receive validation for the work that you do. We should work hard on ourselves so that we don't need that validation in the relationship anymore- you're doing these little things out of love for your spouse, and that should be a sufficiently good reason to do it, regardless of whether or not he/she knows about it.

Back to the thread- yes, NG, you're on trial. Your BW isn't asking the same question over and over to try to solve some problem. She's trying, desperately, to assign some logic to the most illogical situation. Her H has just shattered what she thought she knew, and she's trying to define what her new reality is. Everything you do works to show her what her new reality is, or will be. Running off will provide a new fact to help her define what her new (shitty) reality is. If a conversation really isn't making progress, detaching to cool down a bit might help, but has to be introduced into the conversation with something like, "BW, this conversation isn't making any progress right now. I truly want to answer your question and to help you through this because I love you, but we both need some time to gather ourselves so that we can properly address together. I'm going to go take a walk for a bit, and come back and talk some more."

As a caveat- although something like the above was suggested to me by my IC as a way to diffuse a non-productive conversation, I never really did it (except for once, I think) because I personally felt that walking off would have caused FAR more damage to my BW than working through the pain together, no matter the frustration level at the time.

You will get questions for YEARS, NG, and you will have to show your BW that you are willing to answer them and provide her with a new, safe reality.

Hang in there, NG.

"If thats the case, pack it up and walk way."

Really? I don't think anyone here has the desire to walk away, we are all here trying to help each other through 2 sides of the same coin. Thats just not helpful.

ArmyGearhead, you know why I said that? Because many, many Wayward Spouses come to SI because their BS "forced" them. They are throwing a hissy fit because they don't really "get it". They expect their BS to get over their affair in just a couple short months, and let life get back to normal. They don't want to be the bad guy. They post a couple of times, or start a thread and walk away from it, never addressing it again.

Noglamour started this thread 5 days ago and has not returned to it since. Have you stopped to wonder why that is?

If your marriage was on the rocks and you came to SI, wouldn't you be posting, reading, and replying, and doing everything in your power to better understand your issues?

You CANNOT get PTSD from Infidelity.

I respectfully disagree. And I'm sure there are quite a few BSs here, that have indeed been diagnosed with PTSD, that would disagree with you. Judging by your username, I'm assuming you're in the military. (Thank you for your service btw.) I'm sure it seems quite trivial that something as "small" as an affair would give someone PTSD compared to the horrors of serving in battle zones overseas. But it does happen.

Also, members of the military are trained as best as possible to what they are going to experience. With infidelity, it usually comes as a complete and total surprise. Similar to being ambushed outside of a war zone. The unexpectedness tends to cause more damage.

Unfortunately, my wife and I are still dealing with a stupid decision I made over 4 years ago. She shared this post with me, suspecting I could relate to the original post, which I can.

At four years out, I can see your point. At four months, which is where the OP is at, no way.

Do I want the OP to pack up and leave? No. I hate seeing marriages fall apart. But if at four months out, they are already tired of the whole "OMG, we have to talk about this again!? I'm still being judged? I'm still on trial?" scene? They need to take serious inventory.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 10:34 AM, November 19th (Tuesday)]

noglamour - Yes it does suck that you always feel like you are on trial. You need to understand that your WS is going to have good days and bad days. The simplest thing may trigger her. It is not easy when that happens but you need to be patient and let her feel those emotions. Be there, be supportive and try to help her. Listen to her, make sure she feels that you are truly trying to be supportive of her emotions.

Did the VA tell ya about PTSD or what?! 20 yr navy here, STFU! You hurt her, make it right! AUBRIE is one of SI's best. Listen up Doggy! It'll save your life!

Moderator: The criticism was one made with the intention of helping the original poster. The kind of comment that someone should pack up and leave is way out of line in my opinion. I also don't take kindly to being told not to criticize as a new member then being told to "STFU" by other new members... You gonna moderate that too or is swearing at other members ok, just not helping other members???

I am not taking away from anyones experience, merely stating a definition, that anyone can easily find btw. Im not arguing that people here don't have some of the symptoms of PTSD, it is my opinion that they don't. Now so many people have gotten bent out of shape about it, Ill drop this subject, its a battle I won't win here and its not a big deal anyway. Just something that gets to me as someone who really does deal with it.

confetticheck. Navy doesn't experience jack. Make all the noise you want, it doesn't actually make you any bigger. Its usually a scare tactic to try and ward of animals, its not gonna work here chief. 20yrs in the Navy and how many shots fired at other folks in the same room as you?! How many nights spent out there under the stars being attacked with MGs, mortars, RPGs and anything else the enemy could get their hands on?? Yeah. 0. We had a Navy EOD team that came out with us on a 12 day mission, they returned in 3 because they couldn't handle it. The VA?? Thats place blows if you actually want help. You probably spend all day there frequently with your Navy baseball cap, smoking and joking with all the other old folks there. I have 3 IC that specify with vets as well as several Drs in Psychology, these are the folks that have help me with PTSD. Your Mama should have told you, If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.... I had a point and was trying to ensure the original poster DID NOT pack it up and leave. What was the pleasant point you had???

Aubrie: If you don't want him to pack it up and leave, I would suggest not saying something like that.

You CANNOT get PTSD from Infidelity

so.... my doctor and therapist are wrong? I don't have it?

I'd rather see someone's leg blown off then see my husband on top of another woman, which is exactly what happened.

Navy doesn't experience jack.

Oh yay. A pissing contest. Last time I checked, we need and use ALL branches of the military.

If you don't want him to pack it up and leave, I would suggest not saying something like that

You are missing the point entirely. Did you not read why I said that? If someone is going to whine at FOUR MONTHS OUT, they may as well pack up and leave. Because seriously, this is a 2-5 YEAR process. If at four months a WS cannot handle the pressure of "being on trial", they are most likely not in it for the long haul. They will stop doing the hard work, they'll only do the minimum necessary, and most likely, their BS will be back several months or a couple years later and be posting up in JFO, "Oh my God. They did it again." I've been here 2 years. I've seen it happen dozens of time.

You're entitled to your opinion. So am I.

Peace out.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 10:13 AM, November 20th (Wednesday)]

Navy doesn't experience jack.

Yeah, tell that to my grandfather, may he rest in peace, recipient of the Purple Heart in Midway during WWII.

Please excuse the t/j. It will not happen from me further on this thread. I just would rather not have let that one go.