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So I'm not feeling 100% confident that my WH is truly addressing the issues underlying his infidelities and that there won't be a repeat occurence...so I'm having trouble moving forward. I moved out nearly 4 months ago, we went to MC a few times but he said he doesn't respect the MC. He just goes "for you (me)". I cannot get past not just what he did but the WAY he did it and the fact that he insists the only reason he did it was out of anger because of my snooping thru his "stuff". I have trouble believing that because I was unable to get into his phone and email (he started locking his phone during EA/PA with OW). I have been going to IC with the same MC who is faith based and insists that while he is a proponent of M, he doesn't see true remorse from my WH. After DDay, I asked for NC which he violated twice in the month afterward. He even told me he was upset that he ruined his friendship with OW! Since DDay, we spoke of total transparency. It took him 6 weeks to give me his email password (after completing deleting everything) and still has yet to give me his Facebook password, citing that we both need to close our personal pages and start a family page. I don't feel I need to close my personal page and he shouldn't either. I know how easy it is to hide profiles and have secret email addresses. He says all the right things most of the time...except for some "minor" semantics (minor for him, major for me). Since Dday, he decided to hire a massage therapist to come to his office (he is self-employed) to help with some back pain. He told me she was a referral from his doctor. I checked it out...he neglected to tell me she was a 24 year old gorgeous college student and that the referral was really from his chauvenist employee...an ex-girlfriend. When confronted, he insisted that he didn't think I would mind and that he said it a was a referral but did not tell me where the referral came from. Also, when disclosing financials, I asked him specifically about an account and he said "I don't have that card anymore". I knew he did. So when I confronted the issue, he said it wasn't a lie...he didn't have the card anymore. His secretary has it and they solely use it for business purposes, even though the card is in his personal name. He always ends every confrontation with "I love you, I want you back, I'm not going to make any mistakes again". If you read my profile, you'll see that he was having his A right in our own backyard while I was home and never once indicated to me that there were problems between us. I even interacted with the two of them. He would kiss me, go out to the barn and makeout with his girlfriend, then come back in the house to me. I'm so devastated. How do I know if ANY of this is sincere? How do I even think of trusting him not to make these mistakes ever again? He says the Lord has changed his heart but problem I have with that is that he has been a preacher in the pulpit for the last two years....didn't he know this was wrong then?!?!?! You would text your GF every morning while you were doing Bible study? Most days I don't even know why I would consider working this out with the multiple layers of deception with the A, in addition to the TT (he still won't really talk about the A at all) and continued lies (aka small omissions/semantics while in R). Thoughts? WS comments welcome.

I would not trust him one tiny bit. He is NOT remorseful and seems to still be engaged in A thinking and behaviors.

((((PW)))) I am so sorry you are here.

How do I know if ANY of this is sincere?

The only thing he is sincere about is doing what he wants regardless of how it impacts you. He isn't working towards R. You are. he's doing what he wants because he knows there are no consequences otherwise.

I 100% agree with RipsinmyChest and lieshurt. Your WH is still engaging in wayward thinking and behaviors, and is only doing what he wants to do.

IMHO,

No Facebook password = deal breaker

WH blaming me for his affair months after DDay = deal breaker

Continued lying = deal breaker

*24 year old beautiful college student as ongoing massage therapist in a private locale = deal breaker

*I completely understand the benefits of massage therapy. But it's ridiculous for your WH to do this right now. Why can't he utilize a spa (so that it's in a business and not in a private location)? Why can't he use a male therapist? Obviously your WH has shitty boundaries (so does mine, but he is working hard on them) and there is no way he should be engaging this young lady's services in a private location, on a continual basis.

Right now you shouldn't trust your WH bc he is showing you he is untrustworthy.

Have you read through the info in the healing library - yellow box in the upper left corner? There is a lot of great stuff in there. (((Hugs)))

[This message edited by TennisTC at 1:32 PM, December 19th (Thursday)]

Be clear with him, "you had better stop thinking about OW, stay away from OW, start taking MC seriously, cancel the masseuse and stop lying." Then you should go out and find a male masseuse to work on his back, he can be handsome or burly, that is your choice. And make him give you a timeline of the A on paper.

What stupidgurl said but make him do things by deadlines. And be prepared to follow through on your consequences. So think about what the consequences are going to be.

Was wondering - Is your WH Sex Addicted?

I am in a similar situation. My SAWH has been doing all of the right things: IC with a psychiatrist, also CSAT, MC with me, SLA meetings weekly or every other week, spending all of his free time at home with family vs. complaining he hasn't seen his friends, planning date nights with me, gave me a timeline of the affair and accounting for all of the money spent. Yes, on paper this all looks great. But it's very difficult for selfish people to change their ways, even if they are motivated. And it's pretty easy to talk the talk and intellectually know what you have to do but it's a lot harder to actually DO it and keep it up. And for him, he's been selfish his entire life. Two things…First, he's very defensive when this is brought up. He takes it as though I am saying "YOU aren't doing enough, you aren't trying to change" and that is not at all what I have said. Maybe I am just not being as "positive minded" as he would like. I am cautious, for obvious reasons. I still don't really believe he is REALLY committed to this. Second thing: When I ask him about what he will do different in the future he doesn't sound like he understands or believes in his heart what he needs to do to prevent himself from being in same situations in the future. Being "afraid of the consequences" is not enough. He's got to want to NOT go anywhere near there and recognize the behaviors and social situations that he puts himself in (i.e. hanging out with friends who participate in this kind of stuff).

I just finished "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. I highly recommend it. Hopefully your WH will read it as well. It was well written for one thing and examines infidelity at all angles…even examines what is likely going on in the head of the other person (especially OW). In some respects it made me more cautious in my thinking and approach to R. One of the good things about it is that it has tons of research included. So it's not just case studies of couples the author counseled, it's actual research she conducted or was conducted by some other reputable person in the field. Now I know why this book is so highly recommended.

[This message edited by womaninflux at 2:28 PM, December 19th (Thursday)]

Thanks everyone. I do agree with everything that's been said...my head tells me he's very prone to do this again because he puts himself in tempting situations (masseuse) and conveniently leaves out the details he knows would upset me. He did cancel the massages (as far as I know) as soon as I confronted him but it's like I have to find out & confront him before he does the "right" thing. All I hear are excuses and lies and when I look back, our whole relationship has been about him and ME doing everything for the family and him. He will ask me "what do you want to do", I'll throw out a suggestion and then he'll say "uhhhh nah, I don't want to go there". The words he speaks sound like efforts but the actions aren't there. He doesn't go out with friends or anything like that but I always think that if he finds the right piece of trash who doesn't care that he's married, he will do it again. The brazen act of doing it right under my nose seems more than I can bear. I replay conversations and situations with her that I personally witnessed. I tell him I moved out because our place just ignites memories...my own home is a trigger.

Womaninflux...your H sounds like mine. He gets VERY defensive when I ask him about things. I try to use neutral words when we talk (like you were "dishonest" versus calling him a "liar" or even saying "lie" because it sets him off). He uses words like "persecution" and "crucified" when I try to talk to him and I can promise you...I don't call names or say nasty things AT ALL. I don't yell or scream either but he cannot take anything that remotely sounds like a criticism. His mother is an extremely critical person and I think he needs some intense IC to figure himself out. He tells me he doesn't...he's relying on God to change him. I can't help but think this is what turns people away from churches...sad.

I think I'm going to pick up Not Just Friends...I've heard great things about it. Thanks for all the support. This is a great community...it's just SO sad it has to exist. I have NEVER been a cheater and never could be. It's just not in my DNA so it's a hard thing for me to understand.

Your gut is right, I believe. He's an adult--he knows the difference between "forgetting" to tell you the entire story behind an event and outright lying about it. It's sadly common to see a WS leave out details or skew the reporting of a situation to placate the BS or take the heat off themselves. In the end, it's really just plain or simple, destructive lying to do things that are not acceptable to one's spouse. He doesn't sound remorseful, and honestly, his sense of entitlement, blameshifting, refusal of total transparency, and claiming feelings of persecution and crucifixion sound like (at best) an incredibly foggy WS. I'm sorry PW1 to be so blunt, but having been where you are, I can barely tolerate witnessing someone else in a similar boat. Hugs.

Gently, here's what I read in your post that opens this thread:

"I want R. My H says he wants R but won't do any of the necessary work. In fact, he's acting more provocatively than he did during is A. Is there hope for me?"

Again gently, I don't see any hope for R with this guy at this point. Possibly a shock to his system might cause him to change.

Have you outed his A? Has he confessed to his congregation? Is it too much to ask him to resign his pulpit?

Have you considered giving him an ultimatum? (Full transparency now, full honesty with no clever word games, MC, IC for him, plus whatever else you want - if he doesn't step up immediately, you file for D.)

Have you considered doing a full 180, including filing for D? Or just filing for D now?

To me, he sounds toxic and at best borderline abusive, too.

FWS here. You're not in R. Sorry. It takes *both* partners to be 100% committed to it for it to have a chance of success. Your WH isn't even doing the bare minimum. "Forgetting" to tell you details is still lying. He's far from transparent and the nitpicking over semantics is just childish. The anger and defensiveness tells me he's still hiding things. MAJOR things.

IMO he's either taken his A underground or he's lining up another. At the VERY least he's still in full wayward mode. He's so far from "getting it" that it's a completely foreign concept to him.

I'd also recommend a hard 180. This is for you. To help you detach and look objectively at your situation. If it gets his head out of his ass, that's gravy. Draw your line in the sand and stick to it. Tell him "I need you to do X, Y, Z by this date. If you don't, I'll do A, B and C."

It's actions, not words, that will tell you what he wants and right now his actions are saying he doesn't care about you or your pain, your wants or needs. It's still all about him.

Preacher's Wife,

I don't mean to be too harsh - BUT:

Your marriage is not in Reconciliation.

Your WH refuses to show true remorse...to be transparent...and to STOP LYING to you.

I suggest you start posting in The General section...and perhaps you will receive some more helpful advise. It's difficult to offer "reconciliation advise" when it appears your WH is simply not trying.

I'm so sorry preachers wife, but I think he is still cheating. At the very least he is an extremely un remorseful wayward who is just looking for the next opportunity.

I think if you go into stealth mode you will get the proof you need to protect yourself.

Key logger

Phone bills

VAR

find the secret cell phone

Private investigator

I'm so sorry but I think you are in for more shocking news if the rest comes out. For him to be able to preach while carrying on an A is frightening. I believe if God truly was working on him and helping him change he would have outed himself and stepped down.

ETA: Please get advice from other BS about getting your ducks in a row and protecting yourself.

[This message edited by knightsbff at 10:34 PM, December 19th (Thursday)]