SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This idea (and this is a very over the top representation) that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.

I don't understand this. How can advice to be honest not be helpful? To me this is the heart of SI Wayward forum. If you're not willing to be honest, then why be here?

I mean you phrased it as mockingly as you could in the quote above to make it seem like ridiculous and abusive advice, but take away the mocking tone and waht you're saying is that the advice given here to tell your spouse you had an affair is "not particularly helpful." And I really don't understand how advice to fix your marriage that does not include the basic "be honest" can ever be helpful.

Yeah, take what advice you want and leave the rest, but if the part you're leaving is "honesty" then I don't think you're really getting anything out of any of the other advice. To me that's like going to a doctor and asking how to treat your diabetes and saying you'll do anything except refrain from sugar or take medication in order to stay healthy.

As a FWS myself, I can't imagine finding help in a place that did not encourage a strong, honest marriage. I'm glad that when I came here for help there were people here who weren't afraid to tell me to be honest with my husband lest they scare me away.

You notice the new posters will enthusiastically quote the sentences that tell them they do not necessarily have to be honest or confess, and that their affair and marital situation might indeed be different from others here, and therefore the advice about honesty doesn't apply to them. Because at heart that's what a foggy WS wants to read. They come for advice but hope for a pass.

There has to be a strong counterpoint to that. The counterpoint of what we ourselves would like someone to be telling our own spouse if they were dealing with a horribly painful subject and using that advice to direct their actions in our marriage.

What I don't particularly find useful is lumping all of us into a singular bucket. Our affairs are all different. We are all different. Our situations are different.

You are correct...we all are different and all situations are different, however, all affairs are wrong.

I see that Dante has the opinion that we shouldn't lump all WS's into one category and that SI doesn't really offer a different perspective.

In honesty...SI offers a much different perspective for different situations, however, no one here is going to say that holding onto lies and being secretive is ok.

Lying is wrong. Affairs are wrong. In my opinion that part is very black and white.

Thread effing jack.

This idea ... that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.

Dante: Has your BS done this "saintly daily hourly" thing to you? Or are you suggesting all BS's fit into this singular, standardized "BS behavior" bucket?

I'd like to suggest that those offering advice -- if they really want to be helpful -- consider phrasing like "have you considered" or "I, personally, found that...". I think there needs to be a little bit more of a tone of humility... even from betrayed spouses who'd really like to get all scoldy on any wayward spouse they can.

I'd like to suggest, or rather ask have you considered, I mean, I personally found that, wait, if I may humbly suggest, heck, let me be black and white, here's my thought - the one person who might benefit from a tone of humility is...YOU.

JD

P.S. I'm still curious - does your wife know you cheated on her?

P.P.S I'm a recovering epically fogged, epically delusioned, mind bogglingly grandiose, selfish, clueless, in lurrrvvv and NC breaking douchebag. And I personally think, if I may humbly suggest, that we can become very good friends. I'm lumping you in a special singular bucket of "Total Prick Wandering Husbands Who Needed Extra Help to Get Fucking Real"...with ME and quite a few other really special WH's!

P.P.P.S. Please read Maia's recovery guide ASAP. Wait, I'd like to suggest you please read Maia's recovery guide soon.

Good luck, dude. Like me, you need it. Bad...

End Thread Effing Jack

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 2:40 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]

This idea ... that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.

I confessed. And my husband never did that. He never beat me up over the A. Was he hurt? Yes. Did he ask questions? Yes. Did I have to face consequences? Yes. He never held himself in higher regard to myself. He never told me I was trash. He never threw me in the gutter. Did your BS? Does she even know you cheated?

I'd like to suggest that those offering advice -- if they really want to be helpful -- consider phrasing like "have you considered" or "I, personally, found that...". I think there needs to be a little bit more of a tone of humility... even from betrayed spouses who'd really like to get all scoldy on any wayward spouse they can.

It's interesting. The only time people have a problem with presentation is when they're hearing something they don't want to hear in the first place. At that point, it wouldn't matter if it was thrown at them on the end of a poison dipped spear, or a fluffy marshmallow, if that person doesn't like what's being said, they're going to find fault with it. Period.

I'm not going to sensor everything I say just to make people feel better. I'm not a people pleaser. I speak black and white. Don't have a problem with it, and it serves me well. Don't really care if people like me or not. My days of worrying about if people like me or not are over. Validation and wanting people to like me are part of why I cheated in the first place. If I'm talking, it's obviously my opinion. I'm not going to disclaimer everything I say, "In my humble opinion, for what it's worth, take what you want, leave the rest, in my experience, your mileage may vary..." That's just insanity and monotonous after about 100 times. If you have a problem with how people talk to you, examine yourself. Why are you testy, defensive, wanting people to say what you want them to say it? Why don't you stop and think about what they're saying. Try to see the other side that's being offered.

I have gotten advice from countless "scoldy" betrayed spouses. My best friends are BSs. Imagine that. A betrayed person is BFF with an ex-cheater. They have never held my past over my head, they have never beaten me with rods. They have however, shined the flashlight of truth into the cobwebbed corners of my soul. Just as many FWS here have. If you don't want to hear form BSs, post with a stop sign. It's what they're there for.

Every WS comes to SI thinking their "love" with the AP is super special. That they have found the mythical unicorn. That they are different. Cheating is never, ever, ever the answer to any problem. If you are married, you are supposed to be committed to the individual you made your vows to. If you cheat, it's not your BSs fault. They didn't hold a gun to your head and tell you to make that chick your new fleshlight pocket pussy. They didn't tell you to pick up that stud on the corner and make him your new living, breathing dildo. Your choice to cheat is strictly on you. Because you didn't water the grass on your own dang side of the fence. Because you didn't have enough self-respect to find healthier ways to cope with whatever crap happened in your life. The problem with the marriage is you and your choices.

Every new WS comes on here saying there is nothing wrong with them, that their BS is a jerk, that they're in a sexless marriage, that their BS doesn't do enough around the house, that they are so mean and abusive, that they put too many cheeses in the lasagna, that they always run the car out of gas. I mean it's always something. It's always the BSs fault. It is very, very rare for a WS to show up here and actually own and take responsibility for their crap actions, and face the consequences for their affairs. Very rare.

Many WS get mad and throw fits when the more experienced and healed WS advise them. Because dang it, you just don't know me! I'm special! The AP really loved me! You have no idea what my life is! The WS do know you, they also know you aren't the special unicorn, that your AP may have "loved" you, (about like an addict loves meth. Doesn't mean it's healthy.) And the FWS here do know a thing or two about healing.

FloridaRedMan, Clarissa, heartbroken0903, HUFI, AuthenticNow, Fallen, (forgive me if I've left anyone out) these people have been here for years. They know a thing or two about infidelity. They know. Call me crazy, but I would think that someone would stop and listen to the veterans. They're healed/healing, they're healthy, and they're not stupid.

-Aubrie

Just my humble opinion, for what it's worth, take what you want, leave the rest, your mileage may vary.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 3:17 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]

I have posted to a few threads on here this week that make this thread important to me.

I think we all must always look at ourselves and while no one is perfect (least of all me ) I think we can get into difficulties on this board when dealing with some issues.

After a lot of soul searching and finding out my "why" I have realized that the why was because I was abusive to my wife. The ONS with a hooker and then my text to her telling her all about it was not about love, la la thinking it was meant to hurt her. Yes, I had to be transparent, open and I also had to change my abusive behavior in order to R. I will address the reasons for saying the previous in the paragraph that follows the next one. I have two issues really that concern me.

On this forum I have recently told someone whom had posts all over the boards looking for answers, that no she did not simply have to give into her boyfriend's desire for sex. I had looked at her other posts and believe that they are in a young (age of participants) relationship, not a commited marriage and that he had done things that he would not take ownership of. Some advice, mostly by very hurt and fragile BS, told her she should have sex anytime he wanted to, which was the problem she was posting about. I thought it totally inappropriate given the circumstances and it was a knee jerk reaction by some to suggest that. That is one danger we have on here if we are not always checking ourselves. Kudos to the mods for handling things well most of the time, because sometimes WS won't post it, even for their own good and the reality of a board like this where we have both BS and WS and the problems that come from both of those situations.

Abuse, being a big issue for me, is something I am very sensitive to is another issue which I find troubling on these forums. I made a knee jerk reaction to a thread. In hindsight I will be more careful in the future. However, the issue of abuse is simply not understood by some and by others its severity and effects are judged by some from their own experiences. My wife never cheated on me, despite my abuse of her. She has PTSD to this day which we are both working with as well as my issues. In a case such as ours I could see where someone would "feel" justified by having an affair as way to escape the abuse within their relationship. A refuge if you will.

Now, I am not advocating that would be right in any way. However, in order to R, that couple would have to do a number of things. First and foremost the abuse would have to stop completely in order to even have a relationship that was in any way equal or healthy. The second would be that the WS in this case be handled very carefully simply because he/she would be traumatized by that abuse. She would first have to have an environment that was condusive to his/her healing. This is an area where I see that SI may not have the correct answers all of the time. This is where the common advice is thrown on it's head. Someone who cheated in that environment would have to treated differently to someone who simply had no boundaries, etc. IMHO

For myself, I read a lot of advice which is fantastic and right on the money. I respect every one of the older members who posts their experiences. I will in future offer my experience, which includes a lot of exposure to abuse and what constitutes it and what damage it causes. I will in future be very careful about how I offer it and when I offer it. I could see where someone who had experienced actual, systematic abuse would feel that some of the advice they were given would be not so welcome in their situation. The problem for me is to determine what is real and what is unreal from often one sided posts, which is a problem which is inherent with this type of support.

I think I have gotten the gist of this thread and only wanted to offer my perspective, in the hopes that it may help us all do what we are doing on this board in the first place, trying to help with the damage from infidelity.

The BS meters are pretty much foolproof, both on the betrayed side and the wayward side.

This is one are which I will disagree on a little. We are dealing with a lot of hurt on this site, and sometimes that bleeds through and advice is offered strictly because of the anger caused by being betrayed. Understandable? Absofuckinglutely. Helpful, in some cases it is not. This is where the moderators come in I think. However, they are only human and have a lot of threads to deal with.

Does it matter that it is infrequent? I think so. Because even one person put off by that type of judgement and projection could be the one person who needed this site the most and was so hurt they simply left.

I am not advocating for any immediate changes in this board, because I think it works well and helps a lot of people. The issue was brought up and I have pointed out where I think we could all be more aware of the limitations of this board, which are as I said before, inherent in this type of medium.

I was talking to my wife and she informed me about the stop sign being put to default. That is a change that I laud and shows that SI really is a great site that tries to help all concerned in a real way and questions itself and is willing to grow. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my take on this thread. I did want to address a mistake I made about the use of the stop sign in an earlier post, given my wife telling me about the changes to the stop sign I did not realize.

[This message edited by astudentoflife at 4:40 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]

Wow, I did not mean to post and run! After a very busy day I came to check in and saw two pages of posts. Obviously we all have strong feelings on things. Good, because this important stuff!

I will take the time to read through and respond when I can thoughtfully.

Thanks for all the feedback.

When I first came on here Everything was pretty fresh and I was in no way in the same mental state as most of you. I am still not, it takes time. Some of the things I was told I took away-others I did not. That was because I felt it to be untrue to my situation at the time, I didnt like what I was hearing, or it simply wasnt something I agreed with at all.

As time has passed and I look back I agree with many more things. Many have given great advice and I appreciate it - even if I didnt then. Remember when you were new? It takes time to move to a place to think differently! As each month passes I am in a better place and can see more clearly and take some of the advice I didnt want to hear. I am beyond thankful for that.

I agree we are in similar situations but I still feel As are different. You cannot compare the feelings of a ons, 2 wk A, a 6 mo affair, 5 year affair or 15 yr affair. different things and amount of heart we invested in each and all different. Everyone heals and sees the light at their own pace!

This is a good place to get help, to learn and grow and be better as your fog dissipates!

Just wanted to share my thoughts and say thanks! I may not always like what has been said but I appreciate that it was.

[This message edited by pastthelies at 6:36 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]

Total Prick Wandering Husbands Who Needed Extra Help to Get Fucking Real

Hey...I come from that same bucket.

A lot of WS's do. Our heads are firmly entrenched in our backsides during and often for months after the A. To this day I find myself discovering things about myself that I don't like and need changing, an exercise I never engaged in before IC, MC and the TONS of help I got here when I first joined.

Back then, newbies knew we were starting to get it when HUFI gave us the "clapping man."

We will give you scary, painful, hard advice. We will also be the first to support you when you do the hard things. Not because we know how it feels to be YOU, but because we know how it feekls to be a WS in pain, trying to get it right.

ETA: Great topic, AN.

[This message edited by longroadhome at 7:45 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]

asol, when I spoke of the BS meters being pretty much foolproof, I was speaking of the occasional troll we get here. Those posting as a BS or WS just to stir things up. And there have also been a few legitimate WS who have posted but didn't return because we didn't tell them what they wanted to hear and/or called them on their bullshit. They were still too deep in the fog to even consider the *idea* that they were broken and that it was *their choice* to have the A. Hopefully, those WS will come back and listen to the advice we can give them.

I agree we are in similar situations but I still feel As are different. You cannot compare the feelings of a ons, 2 wk A, a 6 mo affair, 5 year affair or 15 yr affair. different things and amount of heart we invested in each and all different.

The specific feelings of people engaged in affairs might be different, but the major solutions to the affair are pretty similar. I feel like relating to the "emotional investment" of someone and their AP is less important than solutions on the road to repairing the marriage.

This is, after all, about supporting the marriage. Not about helping someone focus on their AP and the cruel cruel fate that has kept them apart.

In my view honesty is integral to reconciliation (and marriage in general) and I don't think any of us should shy away from encouraging something as basic as marital honesty because we're afraid of alienating posters who don't feel like being honest.

This is, after all, about supporting the marriage. Not about helping someone focus on their AP and the cruel cruel fate that has kept them apart.

In my view honesty is integral to reconciliation (and marriage in general) and I don't think any of us should shy away from encouraging something as basic as marital honesty because we're afraid of alienating posters who don't feel like being honest.

*insert HUFI's clappy dude in here*

[This message edited by Aubrie at 8:54 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]

Circe-

I agree the advice may be all the same but the more a Ws was invested in the A sometimes the longer it takes to sink in. Takes longer to lose feelings for Ap and get out of the fog to be able to move forward. One thing I have learned is that things take time! You can try to push yourself but it wont work until you are ready to mentally take each step forward! Some go quick, some dont.

[This message edited by pastthelies at 9:39 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]

If memory serves me correctly, it took Hufi years to get his head straight. He posted and posted and posted, and it all sounded really good on paper but turns out that much of what he preached, in the early years, he wasn't practicing.

What's my point? This shit ain't easy. Even the smartest of the smart WSs had their share of tough times.

Is it tempting to want to rush newly posting WSs through the learning process? To save them from making mistakes? Sure it is! But if there's one thing in life that I've learned, it's that people will see when they are ready to see, and not a moment sooner.

As far as I'm concerned, an affair ended, is an affair ended. I, for one, can certainly celebrate the ending while I wait for the rest of the pieces to fall into place.

Do I like reading about AP mush/love/sex? Not particularly. In fact, I think it harms the WS by keeping them stuck in the muck. However, if putting that crap here saves the WS from reaching out to their AP, I'm okay with it.

As to confession of an A, I think that is a very personal choice and should not stop a poster from receiving support here in the wayward forum.

And another thing, I find it interesting that a website that does not condone talking about religion places such a high importance on the practice of confession.

It's also interesting to me that everyone seems hung-up on confession because it's the moral/right thing to do, but so many here cuss like drunken sailors and seem hell-bent on punishing and getting revenge on the APs (or even their own WSs) for years.

Recovery is more than just confession.

Replace word "confession" with "telling the person you (supposedly) love the truth".

No religion. No church. No morals.

Simple.

I really liked the beginning of this thread and the spirit in which it was started. Unfortunately I feel it was lost in amongst the bickering and minutia. I would like to express my appreciation for this forum as a safe place for us WS's to post. Yes there are some hard things for us to hear and learn, but at the end if the day we are here for eachother. Tough love!

Amen.

I think there is a difference between giving advice, whether it's hard hitting or not and being a bully or mocking someone. Just in this topic alone it has reared it's ugly head.

I'm not saying there isn't truth to what is said in these forums, because often there is, and it does help. However some of us are looking for support but not looking to have the verbal shit beaten out of us after telling our story. We need help, methods, suggestions - that's what newbies need in my opinion.

A post recently by a vet said not a lot of waywards stick around. Maybe it's because they are scared to tell their story for fear of the response right off the bat after reading about others. *Just my opinion*

Also I've gotten a lot of constructive feedback from members in the short time I've been here. A lot from BS's too which has been very very helpful. but yes there are those comments which I find very unnecessary and it's not because I don't agree with them it's more about the delivery and coldness to them. I don't need it sugar coated but I also don't need a layer of crap put on it either.

Most of we WS's start on SI with our craniums' firmly ensconced in our rectums.

We're nothing but emotion and instinct, logical thought and common sense went out the window when the cheating started and 'not thinking' became a habit. It's all "I want, I want, I want, me, me, me, me,."

What we are basically, is just like a 3 year old with all the hissy fits and tantrums to go with it.

How do you deal with a 3 year old?

We could do it like this, the touchy feely, warm and fuzzy non confrontational way.

Sit down them down and have a calm and non-confrontational talk about the danger of grabbing the handle of the pot of boiling water on the cook top. We could, oh so sweetly discuss the pain of 3rd degree burns, the panicked rush to the hospital and the possibility of life long scarring. We wouldn't dare to invalidate their feelings by telling them their need to grab the handle is just plain wrong or stupid. Because who are we to judge? How could we possibly know the right thing to do? Because they're different to other 3 year olds, they're special and their need to grab the handle is special because they love the handle, they want the handle and we're just being mean by telling them it's just a handle and a pretty shabby one at that.

But would it stop the 3 year old from injuring themselves?

Or the tough love way,

You could slap the 3 year old's wrist in a sharp way to produce the required stinging sensation without causing physical injury and in a firm and commanding voice say "NO! DON'T TOUCH".

Then wait till they're a bit older and able to process logical thought before going down the whole explaining route.

There will be tears, there will be red faces, there will be foot stomping, there will be confrontation and hurt feelings.

There won't be a burnt child.

In the General Forum they have a saying.

"You can't nice a wayward back into the marriage"

Works for me.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 6:31 AM, January 13th (Monday)]

And another thing, I find it interesting that a website that does not condone talking about religion places such a high importance on the practice of confession.

As someone without faith, religion or belief (in the supernatural)I have no problem with this aspect of our advice. This is being called honest to the person we hurt. The only reason someone would not have to tell their spouse of infidelity is if they wanted to control the marriage themselves, which in any form of morals which will not promote honesty, but perpetuate the brokenness that it takes to commit adultry.

That is a hard concept for a WS to get. To get that they must realize the damage they have done and the way in which they treated their BS. Not so easy if left to ourselves. It is a standard that is the first form of honesty for us. We let go control of the relationship and give the BS their right to make up their own mind given all of the evidence.

I am sorry to say that if you don't do this, you won't have real honesty in your relationship and the old issues are sure to rise again. This is a must do in my opinion.