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I said nothing. He is giving me the silent treatment. This is very painful and I expect more pain ahead. Do I take this phone to a PI? I have looked up computer forensic places and they don't seem right. I don't want to lose whatever info there might be by having the wrong person look at it.

But I would feel empowered by as much information as I could get.

This is a guy I love I think. I think he loves me back to what extent I don't know.

you can either do things to make us good and get on the right track or you can be destructive

Contrasting these two statements, I can tell you he doesn't love you enough. You keep giving him the benefit of the doubt. I do this, too, so I get it! But it's detrimental to you. You are hoping he is someone who he is not. And who he is actually is a not nice or caring husband.

Try calling the computer forensics people and see what they say.

But really, whatever they find, do you want to live with someone who puts you into this sneaking investigative anxiety? I know you want the evidence for confrontation...but it's the fact that you are having to snoop and confirm in this way that is the main underlying issue, more than what the actual details will be.

I really don't want to be a suspicious searching person, all the time having to fear and verify. I do know that if there were any current contact with OW that is a definite dealbreaker. I have drawn that line. This discovery deals with past information but it is current deception about the past so?

The timing though is what I struggle with. I think if he had any chance of really stopping this dual life it is now. She led him into using and buying cocaine from her. His brother and psych have counseled him that the only way to stop that is to cease all contact with her. He wants to stop it and I think he has but struggles with his super work stress and poor coping skills so I think he might be feeling tempted. I think this is what he means when he says to me, "I am trying so hard. You don't know how hard I am trying"....I think he means to not turn to cocaine. I don't think he means to not turn to her but am not positive. The second statement you highlighted I know comes from a place where he is struggling to stay on a path and really just can't handle any more adversity even if it be uncovering lies he has told about the past. From what I have come to understand with him, when I or anyone tells him something unflattering to him it is life a knife in the heart. Whatever issues he has, this external invalidation is overwhelming. He has issues. He is getting help with them with a psych and medication. Which is another thing about the timing. He is doing these things to make our and his world better and they are excruciating for him.

I really think that no true healing will be done while he carries forward lies.

When you say you don't think he loves me enough...not sure what that means. I do think he loves me more than anyone, more than OW..I think.

Another thing is my son. I finally told him most of the truth last August. He doesn't know about the cocaine usage. But when we had this really intense conversation he did say that he preferred we stayed married. I feel like I need to do all I can to see if I can do this.

I just don't know how much fight is left in me to try and force what I know is necessary....starting with all truths, knocking down this last impediment.

((((mainlyinpain))))

Has your WH gone to NA at all? There is a lot more here than you can deal with for him.

By not loving you enough I guess I just meant he may love you as much as he can--more than the OW, etc.--and yet his love still may fall far short of what a non-broken person's would be. I hope you aren't offended if I call him broken? I just mean it as shorthand for his lack of coping skills, his need for validation, his insecurity. It is hard to be with someone who has such deep issues. However it is good that he is in IC. I can tell you do love him very much. I'm just worried that you are worrying so much about him that you aren't taking good enough care of yourself. Yes, his problems make him seem very in need of support; but you need support too!

I really don't want to make you feel you are being attacked for wanting to be there for him. Sometimes you need to try your hardest to save things before you can walk away. I respect that. I just don't think that is always a healthy impulse. You are really walking on eggshells around him and he is, frankly, manipulating you by claiming to be such a delicate flower that he 'can't handle' being confronted by any newly uncovered lies!

[This message edited by mainlyinpain at 11:59 AM, February 21st (Friday)]

Thanks for your thoughts norabird. I do not get offended, he is indeed broken. I don't have clarity at all because there is just so much that I feel ripped apart trying to cover all bases and make everything fit correctly. Trying to come to a place where I feel safe. I am so tired of being the accuser. I have said that I want to be in this struggle together not on opposite sides but I don't feel that. I feel like he is always deflecting. I have read that you should present in a way where WS feels safe in revealing truths. How do I do that about this phone? He knows everything about it and I know nothing. Why was it in this drawer this week? I dont' think it has been there since 2009. It was right by the door. Does this mean he was going to use it again now? If that's the case no matter how safe I make him feel he won't be forthcoming. Not to mention he gave me his extra phone on the last DDay. He said it was the only one he ever had.

Such lies.

And why?

To keep me? Why? What am I worth to him if he needs OW?

Why does he lie to keep me? What is he keeping?

Your comment about walking on eggshells, I hear this alot but what exactly does that mean?

That I am apprehensive about his reaction to things I accuse him of?

How does one not walk on eggshells, what kind of thoughts/actions does that entail.

As you can see, I dont have much of a handle on anything.

Also, I put a call into his psychiatrist yesterday. I have talked to him a couple of times. The first time he assured me that WS was having no contact with OW and that he presented her as just being a friend he had lunch with (not the truth, he snowed him). The second time I told him I had a VAR that showed current contact and him saying ILY to her. He said he had denied having that relationship with her and for me to tell WS that he knew this and he would talk to him about it.

I think the psych may call me back soon and I am trying to figure out what is the most important things to ask him or tell him. The earliest WS has an appt with him is next TH and I think WS will just freeze me out until then at least.

I am bracing myself to live a lonely separate weekend.

I don't want to be harsh either. I know that you are stunned and hurting. So sorry.

I am bracing myself to live a lonely separate weekend.

Try not to let your WH be the source of your happiness. Detach a bit, find your own HAPPY. Who needs a wrong-doing sour puss with gibberish coming out of his mouth...ditch him!

Your comment about walking on eggshells, I hear this alot but what exactly does that mean?

That I am apprehensive about his reaction to things I accuse him of?

How does one not walk on eggshells, what kind of thoughts/actions does that entail.

He is passive aggressive and shutting you out when he is the one who is in the wrong, those are his crappy coping skills.

He has obviously installed some nasty little 'buttons' in you. Now you know if you confront he will become angry and try to make you the problem. Don't fall for that shit because you are trying to have a peaceful life with him. Your accepting or minimizing his betrayal is only giving him a license to continue his hurting your heart.

You know it is dysfunctional. You will have to be brave and stop the madness.

When you do decide to confront, do it in a calm, cold manner. Trust me if you come at him in a way that you have never done before, he will pay attention.

A calm convo with truths and setting of boundaries does not require any comment from him. Imagine yourself as a Queen (that's right! your the QUEEN!) announcing a mandatory edict. This convo will consist of rhetorical statements from the Queen. The commoners will not comment, don't allow him a word in edgewise. Change your tack!

Now is the time to UN-install those little 'buttons' he put in you to confuse and create chaos.

Don't fall for Wayward Speak. It is just nonsense, jabberwocky!

He is just a creepy bully! Trust me, when you stand up to a bully, they will 100% back down. He will be astonished by your new found brio! You have found him to be a liar and a cheat. He does not have a say in anything at this moment. Laugh at his stupid antics and stay calm.

And remember if he gets really angry, it's because he is guilty. A loving and remorseful person will admit when they are wrong and try to make amends.

As far as the phone goes, look on line for a computer forensic shop. It will cost you about $75 to retrieve anything on that phone. If they cannot help you, they will usually tell you upfront or not charge you the full cost.

Please settle your mind and have the phone analyzed. You deserve to know the truth in your own life. Never give that up!

Take care dear MIP.

[This message edited by Getting to Happy at 6:56 PM, February 21st (Friday)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuKsnsrQxVo

Well obviously I don't know how to share pic and cannot figure out how to get or what is a gif. Shucks!

Sorry MainlyinPain.

I was just trying to make you laugh a bit. Either way look at the youtube. Glinda will show you what a Queen looks like shaking off a bully!

[This message edited by Getting to Happy at 7:29 PM, February 21st (Friday)]

mainlyinpain, I, too, am married and in love with an addict. That road to recovery is even bumpier, perhaps, than the roller coaster with a plain ol' wayward. You have a boundary--no contact with OW--that you believe your WH has been true to. You are safe. You are unhappy and scared. You have a phone that potentially gives more answers about the past. You have a WH who is vulnerable and NOT in recovery but who is trying and making progress with an IC. You've also got a wonderful resource here in SI members who have BTDT. So there are some pros and cons.

I understand your believing your WH loves you. Mine loves me, too. Not only that, I truly believe he is IN love with me again. And he IS trying. He slips and he takes baby steps forward, then he slips, and inches forward again. It's mind-bogglingly, frustratingly slow. So--as long as my heart and my health are not compromised by his physically acting out again with another woman (paid or not paid)--I'm staying while he makes progress and while I love him still. Do I want it faster? H---, yes! I want him in recovery yesterday (or ten years ago )! But I've loved him for 23 years, and I'm going to be here while both of us are recovering.

In the meantime, I'm attending S-Anon meetings--which have been a Godsend. Being able to talk to other women, IRL, about topics I wouldn't sully my friends/family with is priceless. Learning to worry about myself and to not control/cure him is valuable, too. I read affair/marriage-related books, I show him how loved he is, I go to my group meetings, I strengthen my relationship with my children, I attend IC, I "pamper" myself with inexpensive (all that we can afford) treats, I've chosen a sponsor, I work out at the gym, I spend time cuddling with him, I stand up for myself, I go to church meetings/activities . . .

Little by little, I see him giving back to me and to us and to our children and to our marriage. My IC (who's been with me for 3 years now and who hasn't always been his biggest fan) agrees with me that these little steps have real meaning. My best friend does, too. We all--all of us who aren't as broken--want him to pick up the pace, but universally feel like he's doing the best he can right now.

His dad's been near death since August and recently passed away. Prodding him to hurry would be counter-productive. He's selfish (addicts are selfish), but when I look into his eyes, when I feel his never-ending hugs, when I interpret his cries for help, I know he's trying with every particle he can muster right now to be the husband I deserve to have. And, truthfully? He's never been as outstanding a husband to me as he's been these past 12 months. So his attempts have not been in vain.

So listen to our collective advice, be savvy, safeguard yourself, be strong, but be patient, too. Only YOU are living with this man and can tell if he's genuinely trying to make the drastic changes necessary. That sort of change takes TIME (that dreaded four-letter word). But the same time that allows him to heal also allows you not to stick your head in the sand but to line up your ducks. You CAN wait for him while empowering yourself.

: ) thanks Getting to H:

I am practicing my “be gones”.

I can certainly enjoy myself without him, it is the overshadowing of this latest information that spoils my happy. But I am going to just make it an all about me weekend if he comes home and continues the shunning. (But the shunning always hurts)

I had known that he had not given the whole truths, but this phone with the 2009 date really kills. I had thought it had been a few months earlier than what he said -2/2011, I had thought it had probably really been the end of 2010. To find this phone with the last number having been dialed in 11/2009, and to show, if I read it correctly, 770 HOURS having been used before that, is hard to wrap my head around. I had told him I had found new information that made me heartsick and his response is silence?

I do want to get this phone analyzed. Actually, he gave me the one phone that was the only one he ever had, so he said, in September, It was broken apart so I thought it was useless and then later remembered that DUH it might have a SIM card still in it. I can’t find it now, he may have taken it back but I am going to look for that also and take them both somewhere.

I did not get any call back from his psych. That was disappointing.

He def knows what buttons to push on me. Be angry and righteous, defensive…she will back off and question herself, maybe even apologize.

Tell her how bad work is when she says she is hurting…she will feel she has to be understanding and comforting.

And remember if he gets really angry, it's because he is guilty. A loving and remorseful person will admit when they are wrong and try to make amends.

So true this /\/\/\

I want to say this to him and his psych, that when he becomes so agitated and upset at questions it really is a coverup. His psych he says, tells him—you are doing the best you can—but I think psych is being snowed.

RippedS: I am sorry you have to deal with so much on your plate! You have a good attitude about making sure you have other places you turn to and not just him.

I did not know about the cocaine until two years after he first started. He says it was on and off but he really seemed to have been convinced that it “helped him”. Seems to think he was/is not an addict. His psych and brother recommended a treatment program but he says he does not need that, that he just needed to stop and stop contact with OW. (I am not entirely sure this is true, that he stopped contact, can we ever be?)

Is S-Anon for spouses? I had considered this but he is very dismissive of this being such a problem for him I wasn’t sure.

In all you say to do, waiting and waiting for the change in him, showing him how loved he is….are there any consequences for him? Aren’t the consequences supposed to be what causes the learning to take place? I am confused about that….don’t know what the consequences would be in my situation….certainly don’t want to be a taskmaster, punisher, mother-figure.

It is great that your H has been the best ever in the past year. I wish I could say the same. I think this year or past two years have been the worst ever. But he says he wants to go back to when he was a good man. He says he is trying to get there.

I am trying to empower and safeguard myself. I so want to feel safe, not afraid. I can wait for him to keep working on himself, I just don’t want that to be happening while he is still hurting me.

This has been very rambling. He still is not home, not called all day as he usually does to check in. He knows that is what he is supposed to do. But it will probably be my fault that he hasn’t.

Hugs to you all for helping me.

MIP. Your WH is majorly manipulating you.

he says he wants to go back to when he was a good man. He says he is trying to get there

He is telling you what you want to hear. If he were really serious about this and if he were trying so hard, then he wouldn't be snowing his psych.

You need to decide that you are done playing this fool's games. He wants to play the game where he doesn't call all day and then comes home late? Go out and don't be there when he gets home. He wants to give you the silent treatment? Fine. Whatevs. Go about your business.

What you've been doing isn't working.....so try something different.

In all you say to do, waiting and waiting for the change in him, showing him how loved he is….are there any consequences for him? Aren’t the consequences supposed to be what causes the learning to take place? I am confused about that….don’t know what the consequences would be in my situation….certainly don’t want to be a taskmaster, punisher, mother-figure.

No the consequences are the natural outcome from his mis-behavior. Newtons 3rd law of physics: "With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

In this case it means that you push back the bullshit with the same force that he is dishing it out. N'EST-CE PAS?

Push back, be the Queen. Stake out your territory. Setup boundaries and enforce your rule. I know that you do not want to be the enforcer. Standing your ground is not being a taskmaster. It is having self respect. Respect yourself that you will not allow anyone, not even your husband to treat you poorly, with disdain, treat you as less than him.

He is no God. Just a mortal with human foibles, like everybody else. Don't let him Lord over you. Don't submit to abuse. You are an equal player in this relationship and should be treated as such. But you won't get anywhere if you don't draw a bright line in the sand. So that EVERYONE can see it. He is letting you down. Don't let yourself down.

No matter what his issues are, they are not yours. You can try to understand them but his issues are no excuse for him disrespecting you and then trying to 'make you like it'. Especially when he basically fired you from that job by cheating and lying to you.

Let your 'Give a Shit' break. I bet he will sit up and take notice then. But unfortunately for him, it might be too late.

I wish you well Queen MIP.

Oh MIP you have so much on your plate here and I can see you really get how he makes himself the victim. It is hard to deal with someone who always makes sure they have the upper-hand in conversation and will use any tactics needed to get it, whether playing on your sympathies or your guilt or your worry. He is used to being able to set the tune, the tempo, the topic, because if you raise a subject he doesn't like he retaliates by not getting in touch and not talking to you. It is not a healthy dynamic. But you are a good person and that's why he can abuse this pattern--because you don't want to rock the boat, since he seems to be implicitly threatening that he will start using again or act destructively if challenged. His psych may be taken in by this too.

I really, really understand that this pattern is hard to change. But gettingtohappy is right--you can show him that he is not the only one who can be in charge. You can set boundaries. And I am so glad you are going to enjoy an all about you weekend!

For whatever it is worth, I am sending you many good wishes for the outcome you want, and lots of strength. It is not an easy path you are on but I know you will walk it with grace and poise.

...but I know you will walk it with grace and poise.

That's Right! Because you are the Queen!

Enjoy your day your Highness!

[This message edited by Getting to Happy at 2:28 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]

There is so much good advice here and I am learning right along with you, MIP. I hope you can find the info inside the phone to get the proof you need. Remember to be the Queen and lay down your law!

Thank you GTH, nora, and Sad for your words of encouragement and uplift.

Fear rules me and I am so tired of it.

Nora, when you said I would walk it with poise and grace, I cried but thought well I better make sure i do. It helped to let me remember that I want to get back to ME and not have to let this whole mess change who I am.

WH came home at 11pm. From work? Probably. But he knows how cruel it is to not check in. The last time he did this I broke and called and said--You can not do this! You know you are a SA and that when you don't come home you know I will think you are with OW. He knows what the silence does to me.

He is working again today. There were no words last night, no words this morning. I know he wants to play it that he is just so overwhelmed at work that he has to shut me out, just can't handle more stress.

Okay then, be gone, fool! (that felt good)

I am enjoying my solitude. Kind of looking for that other phone. Found a place to take them to.

So, its a wait and see. If he comes home tonight and talks to me (ain't gonna happen, but) I will be the gracious queen and grant him an audience.

If he doesn't come home.....at least it will be peaceful here.

But if he comes home and then goes out somewhere....I will go out also and will be out later than him and he can wonder where. Or probably not.

Sundays are our days where we have our weekly talk.

I will have to prepare how and what I am going to say if he makes himself available to have this talk. If we do, I expect gaslighting. But I will be strong. And gracious like a queen.

Don't feel regal at all

He is still shunning, came home tonight at the time we usually have our talks....ignores me, walks past me, has gone I think to the basement I don't know.

I am just broken by this latest.

I really thought he would come to me tonight and say he was ready to talk. I had knots in my stomach waiting for him to approach me and....nothing.

I thought we had progressed farther than this. We have talked about this shunning and our last talk was that he would never do it again.

I don't know how he can stand this silence. Why he prefers this. Why he can stand to hurt me so much. He knows this kills me.

Who is this?

I don't think I can stand this. It feels so isolating.

I can't call anyone they are so sick of hearing about this i know. None of them have ever experienced this and it makes them uncomfortable.

I don't know anyone IRL who has this experience.

It really takes someone who knows what you are talking about to understand.

This is really just so unbearable. I am sitting here just crying and wishing I could just become unconscious.

((((MIP))))

My heart breaks at the thought of you being ignored while you are hurting. I read your profile and things haven't really been right for three years, have they. It must be very, very lonely. It is a kind of emotional abuse to cut off not just affection but any communication with your spouse. I'm still confused by your saying you think he loves you. What has he done or even said to show this? Why do you believe it? Sometimes, as much as it hurts, the love goes away. Denying it doesn't really help you in the long run--,you dodge the full pain now, but don't give yourself a chance to break free and get to a happier situation.

You didn't write in the profile if you've seen a lawyer. Have you? Knowledge is power.

Can you visualize life without him? A better life? I can visualize that for you so easily! But YOU need to start visualizing it and yearning for it. Think how good it would be not to be shunned, not to wonder where he is, not to investigate hidden phones.

I loved my ex so so so much and he was usually incredibly loving with me too but I knew when I had my 2nd DDay and it was over that I was going to be happier not having those nights where I called and called and called with no response and he came home and lied. I hated the feeling of those nights more than anything and knowing I will never be in that position again is a huge relief and weight off my back. It was a much shorter relationship and we were not married so I'm not trying to say it was as hard for me to accept the end of the relationship as it will be for you....just sharing that being free of that toxic situation has done wonders for me. I was so sad all the time and I'm happy for myself that there is no one in my life now treating me in that way.