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tushnurse

Your wife just by giving the possible gift of R is being honorable. It's what you choose to do with said gift that will allow you to regain your honor again.

I guess the problem is that this isn't so much about me regaining my own honor (that's a whoooole 'nother topic) but about BS regaining what he feels he gave up by not acting on his gut, by not literally taking a bat to the guy who his waydar (wayward radar) was telling him was not a good person to have around.

It is the choice for inaction at that time that seems be plaguing him the most and the desire to correct that somehow by...what? Taking action now? He just doesn't see how to change the reality of having made those uninformed choices and is having a very hard time getting to acceptance or releasing the anger or whatever it is he needs to get through it.

So wait your BS feels honor is lost because he tried to believe the best in his spouse?

For not being able to make others do something they had no interest in doing?

Or because he stayed and gave R a go by not leaving?

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from.

Like your BH, I welcomed OW into my home as a guest, unknowing. After dday, I felt foolish and angry at the extra insult added to my injury, but in no way did I feel that I lost my honor. I was doing what I have always done, and being who I have always been.

My husband lost ALL of his honor, and may never get it back so far as I am concerned.

The question about honor and reconciliation is harder for me. I DO feel like I would be shaming myself to take WH back after all he has done to me. I DO feel that it would damage my self-respect. That is exactly why I am as yet unable to commit to any course of action.

[This message edited by krispy47 at 6:25 PM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]

PM for you krispy47

tushnurse

So wait your BS feels honor is lost because he tried to believe the best in his spouse?

I think it's more because he believed me over himself again and again, and every single time it was to his detriment. Every single time he was at a disadvantage. Every single time AP made one of those double entendres BS felt like smacking the snot out of him and didn't.

This went on for years and BS got physically ill from the stress of frequently having his home invaded by AP and having me frequently leave to spend time at AP's home. The whole time we were seeking treatment for his illness, AP was there, "supporting" me and ostensibly BS. He actually made one of these mean comments to BS when I was running into the pharmacy after BS had one of his organs removed in an effort to fix what was wrong with him. (God it makes me cringe to write that.) BS was still kind of doped up from the procedure and AP made a mean comment about how much work I was to take care of but not to worry that he would help take care of me while BS was recovering. How screwed up is that?

I guess I say this to let you know that his interactions with AP were more...extensive? than maybe for the average affair. Now he relives those interactions every day, knowing that if he had just followed his instincts he could have shortened his pain by such a long time. He wishes he had stood up for himself in spite of the assurances I was giving him that he had "nothing to worry about".

Remember also that I am more or less giving you the viewpoint he has told to me in a lot of discussions on this topic. I may not be representing him completely correctly. He sometimes reads SI and has a profile but does not really post. I don't know if he will ever consider coming on here and speaking for himself but so far he has not. He is interested in what people have to say, though.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss these matters with me. I really appreciate everyone's contribution.

I don't know of what I think or say will impact him or not but damn girl you have one hell of a man. He tried so hard to believe the best in you he overlooked his gut instinct. He loved you so much he believed you were being honorable.

I get the hatred and wanting bad things to happen to the AP. I can't imagine it being a "friend" and then figuring out the truth.

At the end of the day though it was a choice by both of you. He had no control over either of you. He was however the one that acted responsibly and dealt with the struggle as best he could. He needs to forgive himself and focus on himself a bit to heal and get strong.

Hi all, I'm the BH of Evolving Soul (seemed relevant). I wanted to make a couple minor clarifications. I think many of the folks who have been kind enough to post have been talking about a sense of personal honor, or what I would call integrity. This particular issue for me is about a larger sense of honor that mainstream american culture seems to mostly ignore or misunderstand. We do usually recognize it when american movies depict characters from "asian" cultures concerned about maintaining "face", or medieval knights that have no problem with war, rape, and pillage, but wouldn't stand for being publicly called a coward or a heathen (for example).

I do feel I was dishonored during the A, for two reasons. In getting married, I trusted my wife as sort of a co-holder of my honor. I felt she had an obligation to guard both of our honor. Obviously she didn't. She also put her boy in a position to actively dishonor my in a variety of ways, mostly too crude to mention. Although I feel I lost honor by allowing this punk kid to run his foul mouth without losing even one tooth, I don't blame myself for not responding appropriately at the time, because at the time I couldn't believe it was anything more than bull**** "smack talk" (plus he was just a kid, and I figured of course my wife will tell me as soon as he does actually cross the line).

Where I feel I have lost integrity or not been true to my conscience, is by failing (so far) to correct the situation, now that I do know how far she allowed him to cross the line. I didn't mind the first year or so, as I would have been too obvious a suspect. But it's been several years now, I'm pretty confident he's given several other folks more recent reasons to off him by this point, and I'm also fairly confident I could without getting caught. All this time, I've been looking for a way around or through this, but I haven't yet figured out a way to get right with having someone out there who decided I would be a suitable person to shit on, and doesn't yet have any reason to regret it more than I do.

Just to forestall a flood of comments encouraging me to let go of caring what he thinks: I really don't. It's not about whether some hollowly arrogant kid believes / thinks he has a reason to regret selecting me as a target, or whether he can cook up some lame way of talking himself into thinking of himself as victorious or even as a victim. Again, it's not about his pee-pee brained opinion; It's about the reality that he was the winner. every time.

For example, He spent a few hundred on gifts and got my wife's undying (so far) gratitude for his generosity. I spent 70,000 dollars on his girlfriend's living expenses and still get criticized for my lack of generosity. How does he not come out ahead by 70,000 and the honor of winning my wife's gratitude? I do realize I'm exposing a whole new issue here; My attachment to my wife's opinion, but that's a thing in itself, and not what I'm trying to focus on here. Just brought it up as an example. I don't think he's mature enough or has had sufficient life experience to even understand how much money I spent maintaining his girlfriend.

Anyhow, thanks to those who have commented already, and in advance to those who will.

All I can say as you go through the steps to heal yourself, your will come to a point where you either accept the situation for what it is, something you really had no control over, or see where you allowed things to go awry from being too passive or conflict avoidant etc, and really take the steps to resolve those issue, and again regain your integrity, and honor.

You trusted your wife, and were duped. When the OM was making those statements, you weren't armed with all the knowledge you needed. You just figured that he was a harmless, crass douche. Afterwards, you were restrained by society, which simply doesn't allow us to exact revenge with impunity.

Give yourself a break, Shards. You've done nothing wrong except be a decent and trusting person.

All this time, I've been looking for a way around or through this, but I haven't yet figured out a way to get right with having someone out there who decided I would be a suitable person to shit on...

I couldn't figure it out either. Everything I could think of to make things right always ended up with the prospect of prosecution and the loss of my professional license. I'm not aware of any "he fucked my wife" defense to battery, murder, or destruction of private property.

If only life were a movie, where the good guys can kick ass with impunity and everything is wonderful in the end.

Sorry bro. I hope you and ES can move past this and heal.

Shards-

I pulled this from an old post for you. It was helpful for me.

Credit to wincing_at-light

[...]the OM knows what he's doing when he decides to fuck a married woman.

Fucking with another dude's wife/girlfriend is a bright line "will get your ass kicked" offense that we're all aware of by the time we're ten years old.

Compare, for just a moment, the well-worn tropes of Warrior and Weasel.

Your classic Viking Warrior is the dude who can come in with horns blaring, torch in hand, and a huge fucking sword who announces that he's going to burn down your village, take your crops, and fuck your woman because he *can*. He's stronger, faster, more powerful and better-trained.

Your average Weasel steals eggs from the chicken coop at night while the farmer is asleep because he knows that he's *food*. That's where he's at in the pecking order: he's someone else's food and can only get what he needs by eating other people's (would-be) children. The Weasel is fucking Corporal Upham from _Saving Private Ryan_ the guy cowering on the stairs while the Waffen SS officer stabs Mellish in the heart an inch at a time.

You remember that moment where Upham gets his redemption? He shoots an unarmed Steamboat Willy after the fighting is done. That's supposed to be his sudden epiphany of moral clarity (if you're the sort of person who hasn't been paying attention): shooting an unarmed liar to make up for pissing your pants while a sworn brother was getting murdered by your cowardice. I wouldn't call that a rousing redemption.

There is not a single case in the history of the planet where the OM is the Warrior rather than the Weasel. He's a guy taking by guile. He's fucking *food*, and he knows it. He is a coward's coward a murderer by cowardice.

I don't spend my time worrying much about the fate of weasels.

[This message edited by Ascendant at 3:58 PM, April 23rd, 2014 (Wednesday)]

FANTASTIC first post, Shards. Welcome to SI.

T/J

Shards, come join us in the betrayed mens thread in the I can relate forum. I think we can help you deal with your struggle.

T/j

ETA clarity

[This message edited by 5454real at 4:38 PM, April 23rd (Wednesday)]

shards ...

i understand what you mean. my wife was introducing me to her guys. having them around the house (albeit not nearly to the extent you went through).

all those times he was here or she was there. the crap you had to eat because her "friend" made what seemed like stupid and irritating remarks that were inappropriate. all the times you were clueless while he knew everything.

they make you feel like you were the clown, the fool in the show ... so to speak. its not the role you wanted, volunteered for, or even willingly accepted. you didnt even know you were playing the role while you were shoved into it against your will and knowledge.

now you know.

now you feel resentment, anger, frustration, and dont want to come out "even" ... you want payback and want it big time in a way that clearly "wins".

i get it.

the problem wasnt that you accepted shit. the problem wasnt that you let some toad slide each and every time he made crap remarks. the problem wasnt that you trusted your wife. none of that is the problem. in fact - thats the WAY ITS SUPPOSED TO BE. we arent supposed to beat the hell out of our wives friends. we are supposed to trust our spouse. we are supposed to do this stuff. you did what you were supposed to. you played the game by the rules, so to speak.

the problem is that you wife betrayed your trust.

thats on her. not on you. you didnt lose any honor. i see your point and understand it ... but its skewed. you did what you were supposed to do and thats not dishonorable.