SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Just getting back to this board after a day or so.....

TearsofLove: no need to apologize for your comment # 5. I was just clarifying my intent in that regard. No offense taken from you, just an exception to the comment.

rachelc: thanks for the kind words of encouragement. Despite my empathy for the BS, I must admit to feeling in some ways like a coward because I did not have the brazeness to confront the AP upon discovery. As someone else on here correctly surmised, I am a rather passive person who avoids drama at all costs. Going to the AP's house would mean having to most likely confront his family, which includes two children under 4. I don't know how I would react if I saw this guy randomly somewhere. A part of me hopes that I would hit him, as a way of somehow standing up for myself.

hopefulmother: It's possible that the BS would have reacted more emotionally due to her status as a mother. Ultimately, she is a human first and a mother second, and she still had control over her actions post discovery. Also, it may be sterotypically presumptuous to categorize all women/mothers in this way. Regarding the FB phenomenon, it's a curious statement on human beings that we need to prop our lives up in the view of others in order to feel validated. It seems to me that if you really want to appreciate how a person's life is NOT going, look at their FB page. It's all misrepresentation, and in my view, a rather superficial vehicle to promote one's self-importance to others. FB is evil IMO.

wincing: regarding compassion for my WW's actions and subsequent suicide attempt, I feel that I have learned the following after over a year of MC and intensive discussions about the matter:

1) WW is a tremendously insecure person who feels a need for everyone to like her and who otherwise derives no fullfillment or gratification from herself.

2) WW was left tremendously vulnerable to a need for some sense of familial acceptance, due to a few factors- she felt embarassed by her judgemental mother for mother's obesity and hording issues, and with whom she was never close to from the start; she had alienated her father, to which she was very close with, for over a decade due to his divorce from the mother. In addition, she has always had a very contentious relationship with her lone sibling- a brother.

3) WW had longed to have children, but supressed these feelings to placate me and the life she wanted with me. I do not want children and otherwise feel uncomfortable around children (and many adults for that matter) :) For the sake of disclosure, I made it clear after a few months dating WW that I did not want kids under any circumstance.

4) WW has always had boundary issues with both men and women. She did not intend to have nor was looking for an affair, but made a horrible choice under compromising circumstances facilitated by inebriation.

This said, I still cannot fathom what she did. This is what I have to go by however.

daisychains: I did not contact BW to inform her of my feelings most likely due to some degree of cowardice on my part, but also because I felt in some ways that no contact was the best policy in this matter.

TheBestMe: very insightful observations. I should make some ammendment to my initial post by stating that my resentment for BS is not an all-consuming, seething, uncontrolable emotion. It's more of an observation of something that I had not fully addressed. I do hope she is healing and would not do anything to interfere with that process.

gutfeeling: I think the difference between my focus and the BS's is that I'm keeping mine internal, outside of venting here and in MC. I agree completely that my WW was the one person that owed me loyalty and failed me. By this token, the same applies to the BS and her WH. However, BS chose to villianize my WW and exposed me to her wrath in the process. This is unfair, it's inconsiderate and there WAS another choice.

The shit storm that rained down after she did - including the AP's BW ill timed reaching out/lashing out - is all caused by your WW actions. She is responsible for the domino affect of her bad acts.

I could not DISAGREE more with this statement. BS's responses were not caused by my WW, nor by her WH, nor by the A. They were the end result of the voluntary decision of the BS. Again, I am in the same shoes as her, albeit minus the children. I chose another way, a way that was available to her as well. The involvement of children in the A, if anything, should just make the BS even MORE outraged with her WH, the party responsible for bringing this into her life in the first place.

Akire: thank you for your understanding. I agree- BS has every right to her feelings about and outrage with my WW. She has no such right to subject me to her feelings and outrage when they manifest themselves through action.

rachelc: thanks for your follow up and your consideration towards my point. BS's reactions may not have been 'that bad' in the scheme of things, but I do not enjoy my mailman knowing second hand that my wife cheated on me, it's embarassing. To also be told by the BS weeks after discovery and shortly after my WW was released from a psych ward that how dare she compromise the political ambitions of some guy unrelated to the A.... do you see where I am going with this? Total inconsideration for my situation, for which I did not reply in kind. Also, and more importantly, something that has nothing to do with the personal pain of the BS, yet I am getting voicemails about it. Maybe this makes me petty. But it is what it is.

Bobbi_sue: given the gravity of all that has happened to me, one year is nothing. I'm still in shock. Again, maybe I'm petty. But the emotion is still there.

[This message edited by mpb1974 at 10:14 AM, April 25th (Friday)]

mpb1974,

One thing we definitely agree on is you are entitled to feel the way you feel and it is not up to anybody else to tell you "how you should feel." I also admire that you acknowledge just about everyone who posted on your thread, no matter what the viewpoint expressed. Take care!

mpb1974,

I have read through most of this thread and have to say that I am sitting here debating weather or not to post a reply. I don't think anything anyone says that is not in exact line with what you want to hear will ever get through. I'm sorry, but sometimes we have to hear the crap we don't want more than the stuff we do.

Please keep in mind that I am 12 years out from Dday and that my marriage survived, in large part to the wonderful people on this board who told me things I didn't agree with and certainly didn't want to hear.

You said

BS's responses were not caused by my WW, nor by her WH, nor by the A. They were the end result of the voluntary decision of the BS

That is 100% untrue. The simple fact that OW knew my H was married with kids meant that (in my mind) mine was not an *ACTION* but a *REACTION*. But not for her flirting and throwing herself at my H, and him being to stupid and starved for ego kibbles to see her for what she was, I wouldn't have had the reaction I did. My H was responsible to me and my kids, but the OW was just as responsible as a thinking human being. Who DOESN'T know that sleeping with a married person will ultimately hurt someone?

I went batshit crazy after dday. I mean I called OW, I emailed her, I GRILLED my H and had to have every.last.detail of the A. I wanted there to be NOTHING he shared with her that I didn't know about. I wanted NOTHING to be left "special" between them. I nagged him until he told me all of HER secrets as well. And I used those secrets to hurt her. I was mean, vindictive, and damn near murderous.

I contacted her BH who was under the impression they were working on getting their marriage back together after a separation. They had a 4 year old son.

When I was finished, her BH divorced her, she lost her job after I contacted them and told them what was happening, and her room mate kicked her and her son out fearing reprisal from "the crazy wife". My job was done. I was happy with what I had wrought.

12 years later I can honestly say I would do it all again. Now to be fair, I also called my H boss and told HIM, hoping my H would lose his job. I wanted EVERYONE to feel the pain I felt. The pain my KIDS felt. I wanted heads on a pike outside my house.

I don't think about OW much anymore, and even less do I think about her BH. Ow is still like a splinter that is buried deep in my skin. Every so often something will brush against it and it causes me a twinge of pain and aggravation.

The fact that YOU handled the shit storm without losing your mind is admirable. However, you are not the OM's BW. Just as you are not me. I know many people have went through this and reacted much differently. No one is saying your pain is less because you chose to not confront. Only that your restraint is more.

Those were very very black days for me. I hope you can get to the point that the reaction of the BW no longer bothers you as much. It comes, with lots of time. Best of luck to you.

his#1: thanks for your feedback and for the insight you bring as a person who has successfully reconciled over the long term. In response to your feedback, I am willing to consider alternative views, but I still hold personal responsibility paramount, and reacting to an A in which one subjects an innocent party to toxic feedback is wrong.

That is 100% untrue. The simple fact that OW knew my H was married with kids meant that (in my mind) mine was not an *ACTION* but a *REACTION*.

Whatever word you choose to describe the post-discovery behavior of the BS, it was the choice of the BS to make, a choice of free will that she was not helpless in making. Nothing and no one forced her to do as she did.

My H was responsible to me and my kids, but the OW was just as responsible as a thinking human being.

The OW was not as responsible as your husband was to honor your marriage. No one is on par with that committment as much as the one who made it. The OW had an ethical responsibility to respect your marriage, but this does not compare with your husband's responsibility to protect it, as the person who promised to provide you with extraordinary care.

My job was done. I was happy with what I had wrought. 12 years later I can honestly say I would do it all again.

At the risk of sounding insensitive, for which I hope you would pardon me, this seems to me to be tremendously callous, vindictive and self-serving. There were more ethical alternatives of course, which may have actually served your conscience better. The OW's young son was confronted with the loss of shelter based on how you responded to his mother's actions. I don't believe that your WS's A required that you did any of things you claim here. While I understand that you chose to respond as you saw fit, I cannot support the concepts that you establish here, as innocent people were harmed in order to satisfy your anger.

I have only skimmed through the slew of comments here but I wonder, have you considered, since this is still a big issue emotionally for you to work through, just reaching out to the BS and actually discussing your feelings with her? With some compassion for hers as well, but also sharing that you felt hurt on top of everything else because her (understandable) anger caused you more pain. I mean, I get not wanted to stir anything up or maintaining nc, but it may relieve some of that hurt. For both of you.

I gotta say though- my ex's OW knew me, my kids... cut their hair and did so DURING the A, all the while chatting with me, etc... I was LIVID.... and I did tell her H, though the only way was through a FB message privately that I think she may have intercepted. Whatever, they are now divorcing. I digress. Anyway, the point is... the fact that she was knowingly involving herself in the destruction of MY CHILDREN"S life, and then was sugary and nice while touching my poor children's heads still to this day, 3 years or so later, makes me want to vomit. More so than just the fact that she lacked the morals to stay the hell away from a married man. She touched my babies.... whole nother level to this particular momma and I can totally understand the BS being so pissed off to have words toward your W. was it super sensitive to you? No, but you also can't expect everyone to handle their own pain in the same way that you handle yours...

A

lso, it may be sterotypically presumptuous to categorize all women/mothers in this way.

I never stated all women/mothers were this way. Maybe, you tend to see everything as black and white? No shades of gray. They should act this way or that way only. Unfortunately, life is not like that. As we BS learn from our spouses A's and the lines of moral/ethical beliefs are blurred and tested. But, thank you for stating that those instincts may have played into the situation.

I don't condone her actions (merely on a Christian level...she is still expected to be held accountable for her actions). Yet she is human and full of weakness. I do understand them. I am actually surprised that at that level of betrayal she didn't do more. I wouldn't be surprised if she restrained herself. Can you settle with the fact that the BS was just as weak as your WW? How, are you in accepting that with your WW? Can you find the grace to extend to the BS, if you have found that grace to extend to your WW?

So again, did your WW have NC during the time the BS vented?

Would you have been okay with her venting if it was done on a more private level? I ask this because: is how she reacted wrong because it is morally/ethically wrong to you or because you (as other BS stated it would not have hurt them) were hurt by the way she put your WW down? I can see how listening to that venting can hurt your ability to respect your WW, when you were trying to rebuild her image in your eyes on some type of positive level.

Is the loss of respect a big issue for you? The loss of the BS respect on a more personal friendship level?

ThisHell: I do not feel that there would be any value in reaching out to BS now after 15 months in an effort to get some closure. If I ran into her on the street alone? Sure, I'd be willing to address it. I don't see that happening given the distance between where we live. Again, I want to make the point that this subject is something that I felt was worth addressing here, but it's not something that I lose sleep over. My primary source of pain stems from and for my WW, who brought this betrayal into my life.

In response to your second paragraph, I've stated this in response to other posters earlier in the thread but will do so again. I'm sure my views will not be popular with mothers, but my perspective is different:

Anyway, the point is... the fact that she was knowingly involving herself in the destruction of MY CHILDREN"S life, and then was sugary and nice while touching my poor children's heads still to this day, 3 years or so later, makes me want to vomit...... She touched my babies

OW's poor sense of judgement and immensely shaky moral compass aside, she was ultimately able to do this because your husband facilitated it. Without your husband's consent, she never enters your life at all, assuming that you did not have a previous relationship with her. Even in that case, your husband holds the key to PROTECTING you, your children and your marriage.

More so than just the fact that she lacked the morals to stay the hell away from a married man.

Again, who made the vow to you? There are any number of countless low lifes out there that, given the chance, would be perfectly willing to take advantage of you and compromise your safety. That's why you hold your spouse accountable for protecting it.

hopefulmother: actually, I have been told many times by WW that I am very black and white on matters, so you may have a point there.

Again, not to enter a theological debate, but I think we can agree that a belief in Christianity is not required to be ethically accountable. I don't blame BS for her actions as much as I acknowledge that I was hurt and felt dismissed by them. Does that make sense? I do wish the best for her and her children. WW did have no contact through the vents at my insistance.

I think I had suggested earlier in this thread that had the BS kept her feedback to WW to texts or calls on WW's personal cell, I would have felt less offended. I think loss of respect is probably an issue for most of us to one degree or another. I think morally what BS did was still cruel, regardless of whether or not I felt personally hurt.

mpb1974,

At the risk of sounding insensitive, for which I hope you would pardon me, this seems to me to be tremendously callous, vindictive and self-serving.

Callous, vindictive, and self-serving? You mean like what the OW and my H did to me, my kids and my marriage?

Yup. Pay backs are a bitch. I was never one to be passive. I was always the type to confront when wronged. My H knew this of me, and had told OW that about me.

I am 100% honest to a fault. I promise you that I was NOT in complete control of my REACTION to the wave of crap the two of them threw at me. I was the walking dead. At one point I tried getting help from a Dr with my rage but was turned away because of insurance issues.

I know my way is not right for everyone. Hell, it wouldn't be right for 98% of others. But those 2% can easily identify and understand.

What I was trying to get across to you was that the BS handles things off the cuff. There is no reasoning. There is no forethought. There is no worrying about hurting someone by the wayside. There is only survival. Fight or flight.

Just because some BS choose to fight, and you chose flight, it doesn't make either one wrong. It doesn't make my pain greater, or yours. It doesn't make either of us better or worse human beings.

If anything I did to OW caused her son or BS hurt, then the OW can say SHE is responsible. If SHE hadn't invaded MY life, she wouldn't have to suffer the consequences, now would she? If SHE hadn't been available for a married man, who may or may not have a wife like me, to stroke her OWN ego, then none of those things would have happened to her, would they?

his#1:

Callous, vindictive, and self-serving? You mean like what the OW and my H did to me, my kids and my marriage?

Precisely, yes. Given that you recognize how intensly devastating their actions were on your life, why would you want to return that 'favor', when the alternative would be not to stoop to their level?

Pay backs are a bitch.

Even if innocent people stand harm if they happen to be in the way? How is the degridation of an innocent person in response to the anger you feel for being degridated justified?

What I was trying to get across to you was that the BS handles things off the cuff. There is no reasoning. There is no forethought.

Based on your initial message, you suggest that plenty of forethought went into your response. Grilling your husband for details, calling the other BS, calling the OW's place of employment. This all seems pretty calculated to me.

If anything I did to OW caused her son or BS hurt, then the OW can say SHE is responsible. If SHE hadn't invaded MY life, she wouldn't have to suffer the consequences, now would she? If SHE hadn't been available for a married man, who may or may not have a wife like me, to stroke her OWN ego, then none of those things would have happened to her, would they?

ABSOLUTELY NOT. You do not get the right to disregard personal responsibility just because someone else wronged you. This is Ethics 101. You could also argue that none of these things would have happened if your husband refused her advances.

I will simply say this:

you say here:

You do not get the right to disregard personal responsibility

Well then, do these OW, like in my case, not need to take some personal responsibility as humans, Christian or not, like you mention, to have decency and not intrude into marriages regardless of who initiates that? Knowingly? I held my H responsible, but yes HER TOO. She knew he was married. Knew who I was and no, he never said, oh you should take the kids somewhere else to get their hair cuts, but she sure didn't take any personal control and suggest another stylist take care of us. Or hell, to stay the hell away from a married man. Myself and my children were innocent bystanders on that too...

I DO agree that yes, the BS here really should have kept her tirade to your wife's personal cell phone. I do see where in her shock and pain didn't consider that, but I maintain: none of this would have been brought on at all if it were not for the 2 people responsible. Blame them. Not the BS. She was dealing with outletting her pain in survival mode differently than you perhaps, but no one deals with things in the same way.

My H bore the lions share of the blame. In the end, he lost EVERYONE that knew about the A and didn't tell me. His sister and brother-in-law, and his brother and sister-in-law. Complete no contact.

Calling the OW's boss truly was off the cuff. I didn't plan it out, I didn't sit and think up ways to hurt her and then carry through. I knew where she worked and called her boss and spat every dirty, shameful, awful secret the OW had out to this poor woman. How her boss handled it was up to her. Knowing the company logo involves integrity and honor though, made me think they deserved to know who was working for them and sharing company info through pillow talk.

Again, you feel that MY actions caused harm to OW and/or her BS and child. I maintain that it was a DIRECT RESULT of HER actions that I had the REaction I did.

If this OW had not placed herself on my radar, there would have been no issue. Everyone grows up hearing, "Treat others how you want to be treated." and "What comes around, goes around." I believe those things. I treat others with respect and honesty, because that is what I expect in return.

My H broke our wedding vows, which is 100% his responsibility to fix. The OW broke, what I believe to be a moral and ethical code. And after dealing with me, I bet she doesn't do it again.

Nothing I did made me ashamed or embarrassed. I was an open and raw wound. I remember looking at my kids sleeping at night and thinking about what kind of a "woman" could hurt them? What kind of a HUMAN can even THINK of inserting herself into a child's life with the singular intent to blow it to kingdom come? Who would do that? Who has such little empathy for these beautiful kids that they could DELIBERATELY and with EXTREME MALICE AND FORETHOUGHT, attempt to wreak so much havoc on them? This OW. And yes, my H. It fell to my H to fix the mess he made. Trust, once broken, is a real son-of-a-bitch to fix. He has to look into our kids eyes and know how HE hurt them. How HE valued them so very little that he was willing to throw them away to get his dick wet. How HE stole time from them to gift to HER and her son. It was not easy on him. It still isn't. He still says things like, "I almost threw all of this away." or "I almost missed out on this."

I was not able to care about who got hit in the crossfire. Frankly, I didn't even think about it. I was 100% on autopilot.

Her child and BS were not my concern, MY KIDS and MY SURVIVAL were. My H was not even a thought to me. At that time I *WISHED* the BS would kick his ass. I wanted him to feel more than regret. I wanted him (and OW) to feel a tiny bit of the all encompassing physical pain I was feeling.

Was it right? to me, yes. To you? Apparently not. If you want only people to agree with you and your viewpoint, then you are going to be sadly disappointed. Like I said before, sometimes we need to hear things we don't like. My actions and opinions are vastly different than yours, and that is ok. Neither one of us is going to lose sleep over it.

I wish you well, and hope you can find peace with your own thoughts.

ThisHell: I agree completely with your view that the OW should take personal responsibility for the pain that she caused to innocent lives. This is an ENTIRELY different concept than that of the BS reining down their fury on the AP while paying no consideration to innocent third parties who might happen to be in the way. I would expect the BS in my situation to have nothing short of disgust and contempt for my WW, as I do for BS's husband. This is different than taking action against the AP. If you do feel that the BS has his or her right to express their anger at the AP through action if they see fit, then where does that end? I do blame my WW and the AP for the A. I also blame the BS for her reaction to the A- two different items in my view. This blame, however, is tempered when I consider the position of the BS. I'm more hurt at what she did than mad at who she is.

his#1:

I maintain that it was a DIRECT RESULT of HER actions that I had the REaction I did.

It seems like semantics to me, but then by this token, your REACTION caused harm to the OW's child.

I treat others with respect and honesty...

I would maintain that you treated OW with no respect after discovery. Perhaps she was not worthy of your respect, but this still needs to be pointed out. You wanted to ruin this woman's life, as you felt she had ruined yours. I wonder, if she had any sense of dignity, appreciation for morality or self-worth, would she have not already been 'ruined' by the revelation of her behavior, without you ever having needed to intervene?

If you want only people to agree with you and your viewpoint, then you are going to be sadly disappointed.

I'm not sure that I'm expressing my view point as much as referring to an ethical standard stating that it is wrong to impact innocent lives in order to exact personal revenge. You were an innocent life that was impacted due to the personal selfishness of two people. Why continue the cycle?

I don't fault you for any negative emotion that you had/have for OW. I cannot get behind your actions after discovery. Like you have indicated, you reacted as you felt you needed to, but an innocent person was impacted by this. Thanks again for sharing your story.

This will be my last post, I have to get some stuff done for my Mom.

You said

It seems like semantics to me, but then by this token, your REACTION caused harm to the OW's child.

And again, once this kid is old enough to ask his mom, "Mom why did we get kicked out and i went to live with dad that time?" How do you think she should answer him?

"Well son, we got kicked out because this insane wife of the man I slept with objected to me inserting myself into her family."

How else can she answer honestly?

I didn't target her. I didn't even KNOW her. Knew OF her due to her habit of sleeping with the guys at my H's job, but I had never met her.

She DID call my H and threaten to find me and "kick her big mouthed ass". To which I told my H to please give her my address.

Every action has an equal and opposite REACTION.

It sucks, but you just don't know what you're inviting into your home when you sleep with a married person. I understand the concept of "temporary insanity" now, better than I ever have before.

I am sorry you felt hurt or disrespected by the BW, and I am 100% certain that was not her intention. I am willing to bet that you were not even a blip on her radar.

Be well.

**Edited because I was rushing and didn't proof read.

[This message edited by his#1 at 1:48 PM, April 25th (Friday)]

And again, once this kid is old enough to ask him mom, "Mom why did we get kicked out and i went to live with dad that time?" How do you think she should answer him?

I beleive that you provided an answer to this in your initial post. The answer would be that they were evicted from the residence because the room mate feared your reprisal. Let me ask you, purely speculation on your part, but if the OW were able to convince her roommate that you would not take any kind of retalitory action against OW, do you think she and her child would have been evicted?

I am willing to bet that you were not even a blip on her radar.

That's my whole point in this. She was inconsiderate of my feelings, my situation, my very existance, in deference to what was really important to her, lashing out at my WW. I was not even a blip on her radar, but I should have been. She could have been more considerate. Again, thanks for sharing and best wishes for continued recovery.

Mom's nurse is on her way, so I have to be quick.

Do I think the roommate would still have tossed her? Honestly, eventually yes. This woman was bringing married men (not just mine) home to a 2 br apartment and sleeping with them in the room she shared with her son. The ick factor alone would make me HOPE the RM would want no part of that.

There is a lot more to my story than has been written. It wasn't as cut and dried as my H cheated, I found out and went coo coo for cocoa puffs. For a minimum of at least 2 months I can honestly say I didn't have complete control of myself. It scared me. I was <---> that close to committing myself, but as I said, insurance said nope.

I felt more than my own hurt. I felt my children's pain as well. As I said, there is much more to it. But suffice to say that I understand the BS making the calls and writing the letters.

I wish you well. Take care.

his#1

OW sounds like a real low life, deserving of your contempt, but again I would stop short of saying your wrath. Best wishes and thanks for your feedback.

mpb,

I do have to point out some hypocrisy in your post. You said this to one poster:

OW's poor sense of judgement and immensely shaky moral compass aside, she was ultimately able to do this because your husband facilitated it. Without your husband's consent, she never enters your life at all, assuming that you did not have a previous relationship with her. Even in that case, your husband holds the key to PROTECTING you, your children and your marriage.

How is blaming this woman's husband for the OW's actions any different than anyone on here pointing out that the BW contacting you was a result of your wife's actions?

While I'm not condoning the behavior of the BW in your case nor am I in any way implying that you shouldn't feel pain, I do have to point out that you cannot have it both ways. You cannot argue that the BW in your case is responsible for her actions and then tell another poster that her husband is responsible for the OWs actions because he invited them by having an affair. The fact is, if your wife had not slept with the woman's husband, there would not have been any calls or anything else. Your wife invited the crazy into your life in the same way that the other poster's husband invited the crazy into hers. In your case, the BW didn't consider how you might feel. At least with the BW of your wife's affair partner, it wasn't likely to be deliberate as it likely was with the OW who made a show of touching the children's head.

Ultimately, we are ALL responsible for our own actions and reactions. The reasons that courtrooms hear all the facts of a case is because sometimes there are mitigating circumstances to someone's actions which warrant some understanding. In an ideal society, everyone would behave with consideration toward everyone else. But it isn't ideal because we're human.

[This message edited by Tearsoflove at 8:31 PM, April 25th (Friday)]

I would maintain that you treated OW with no respect after discovery. Perhaps she was not worthy of your respect, but this still needs to be pointed out.

I am curious how you treated your WW after discovery. It is clear that you were respectful of the BW who called but what about your wife? Did you ever call her a name? Did you ever argue? Are you always respectful and considerate when you are wronged by someone? I am not asking to be sarcastic. I am sincerely curious about how you react to someone you know has wronged you when you don't have the option of avoiding them.

I don't think anything anyone says that is not in exact line with what you want to hear will ever get through. I'm sorry, but sometimes we have to hear the crap we don't want more than the stuff we do.

mpb1974, I would encourage you to take a step back and digest this. his#1 has a valid point which is truly evident after reading through this entire post.