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mpb1974,

We had been friends prior to discovery as part of the larger couple 'friendship' and ours was essentially the only one that was genuine (odd in that we were not close).

Sorry, I'm just not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that BW and you were genuine friends, but not close, before discovery? If that is the case, then maybe you are hurt and taking this personally against you, not your WW.

I think children and suicide attempts are completely separate matters. If I had felt the need to contact OW because of her involvement in mine or my children's lives I honestly would not have cared how her BS felt about it or what choices she was making with regard to her own health and well-being.

I'm just saying that when I found out my children had been involved I saw red. Literally. Saw red. Granted I was able to control my impulses and not respond to OW, but I wanted to. It honestly would not have mattered to me who was on the other end of the phone. Children, spouse, ER doctor trying to save her life.

I'm sorry you are hurting - I truly understand it. But your wife's actions are probably not based on the actions of the BS at all. My WH has threatened to hurt himself multiple times because of his own behavior - not because of anything OW, her ex-husband or her OM have done or could do.

Please understand, I do acknowledge and sympathize with your pain, but the BW also owed nothing to you. Just as you say your WS owed nothing to her and the debt to her was completely the responsibility of her WH. The only responsibility owed to you comes from your WW, the rest of the storm is the collateral she created. It's unfortunate, but you can no more blame OM and BW for their actions than you think they can blame your WW for hers both during and after the A.

It just all sucks. All the way around. Nothing is normal after an A. Nothing.

I think it is easy to displace anger for our waywards onto the AP or OBS. Yes, it is unfortunate the the OBS's pain and behavior caused you additional distress. But, just because her husband didn't attempt suicide, doesn't make her pain less than yours. Who are we to rate and evaluate another person's pain?

Look, the AP in our situation was also a "friend," and also preyed on me and my family to get close to my husband. Honestly, there were moments when I wanted to go over and burn her house down.

So yes, sometimes we restrain ourselves from doing things because they will hurt innocent bystanders or family, and sometimes we can't help ourselves. The OBS behavior doesn't sound outside the norm whatsoever -- it is your wife's behavior that is the problem/issue in my opinion. She engaged in deplorable behavior, and then when someone has a "within the bounds of normal" angry reaction to it, she engages in more selfish behavior. It speaks to her problems, not to the OBS, in my opinion.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 1:34 PM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]

I don't know how one can quantify different levels of pain in this fashion.

I agree, and don't feel one should try to quantify levels of pain.

I am not condoning what the BW did, mpb1974, but I understand why she did. I never spoke to or contacted OW or the BH after D-day. More for my protection than anything else. I do feel the BW was inconsiderate and understand how hurtful that was to you. If you needed to unload on the OM in a voicemail I would understand your need to do so, also.

As I said, we all process differently and need to do somethings that we feel will help with our healing. I don't believe in carte blanche as sunnyrain says here. However, I don't feel this BW didn't anything particularly outrageous.

Personally, I do not buy into the idea that an AP's BS has carte blanche to do whatever they need to do to AP/AP's family in order to heal.

I do understand that different people react differently to emotional trauma. You were more restrained, OBS wasn't.

Neither you or OBS should have been placed in this situation. We aren't equipped with manuals on d-day on how to deal with this shit. She just wanted the pain to go away and was thrashing around in emotional agony, too. (((mpb1974)))

mindbody- your assessment of my comment is exactly correct. While we were friends, we were not close in any sense, although I feel that I genuinely cared about her. I am absolutely taking this personally, in that I feel that my state of pain was considered incidental to the BS getting her rage out on my WW, while commenting on FB about what a wonderful husband and father the AP was. This is the information that I had to go with at the time, and what I have mulled over all these months. It's a minor issue compared to the greater picture, but still one worth addressing. Again, maybe I resent not feeling courageous enough to contact the AP in the same way that the BS contacted my WW.

PositiveAttitude: "Granted I was able to control my impulses and not respond to OW, but I wanted to.". Bingo. Despite tremendous valid rage, you did not return the same disrespect for the OW that she showed to you and your family. This is what I have attempted to do as well, and what I had hoped the BS would have done. I agree- it all sucks and there is no return to normal as you once knew it. I resent that, but had no choice in the matter, no more of a choice than I have in preventing the next earthquake.

bionicgal: Please believe me when I say that I am not trying to rate the BS's pain. I attempted to acknowledge and respect it by NOT contacting her home, by NOT attempting to confront her husband and potentially the children should they happen to be with him. I presumed that her pain was inconceivable and that the last thing she needed to deal with were contacts from me. I think what is being overlooked here is that the BS is me; she is me. We were both cheated on. We were both drug into a false friendship while this went on. We were both lied to. She has kids. I don't. As you suggest, it is pointless to attempt to assess who has the worse pain as a result. I just did not need to be subjected to her comments at the time that she made them and something about that sticks with me. Thanks for the feedback.

[This message edited by mpb1974 at 1:51 PM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]

mpb1974,

Thanks for explaining. I think you may be very conflicted now because you feel you went to extremes to be considerate of her, someone you genuinely cared for and probably expected the same kind/reaction of treatment from her. You mentioned trying to respect her after discovery and you don't feel she has treated you respectfully.

Again, maybe I resent not feeling courageous enough to contact AP in the same way BS contacted my WW.

Maybe, but you may really wish that you had contacted BS, like so many other BSs do after discovery, so the two of you could talk about the

A of WW and WH. In your mind, the way it turned out between BS and you was not necessary and could have been avoided.

What would have been the best scenario or outcome for you, not your WW, in regards to the BW and the events after discovery? Erase all that has happened after D-D, what would you have said to BS to avoid or change how it turned out?

Hi mindbody.

I think that the overriding emotion that I feel with respect to this is a sense of omission. I feel like the BS is the sympatheic figure with children who were inconceivably exposed to the A; my WW most likely appears as the heinously insecure home wrecker; the AP as the confused overwhelmed new parent, who was tempted by the idea of elicit sex while in a marriage otherwise devoid of it..... and then there is me out there in the corner somewhere, no children, no desire for children, no real desire ever to have gotten married (I agreed to this because it meant so much to WW), pretty much an atypical non-traditional person.

I just feel like in all of this, I too had a life that was permanently altered, but which has not really been considered. I don't exactly know what I would have wanted to have happened in order for it to be considered. I think it may have been helpful if I had some contact with the BS just to express the grief and confusion of all of it. If I am to be honest, I felt abandoned. We had been friends for almost 4 years and spent quite a bit of time around each other, although as indicated I was never close to her in any way (she was a new mother, me a person not enamored with children in any way, so the personal interests just weren't there). I'm sure this has something to do with the resentment I feel.

[This message edited by mpb1974 at 2:58 PM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]

I apologize if you found my comments insensitive. I certainly didn't mean for them to be.

Your pain is justified..just as the BW's. I certainly didn't mean to minimize your pain or imply otherwise.

My post was meant to point out why his BW reacted as she did. her children were involved..I do think *that* is a level above an affair.

Does that mean your pain is any less? Absolutely not. It does mean you don't have to deal with children saying, "where is xxxx?" and "I miss xxx." I would imagine that is a special Hell all on its own.

Does that negate your situation and all you have deal with ? No..no..and NO.

When WS have an affair, no one can predict how anyone will react on dday or afterwards.

You didn't contact her family, and you expected the same from her. People often surprise us.

You are angry with the way the BW handled the fallout from finding out her friend had been having an affair with her husband for years..and had become close to her children.

I think your anger is misplaced.

[This message edited by AchillesHealed at 3:46 PM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]

confused: thanks for the reply. You refer to my WW as the BS's friend, which would be inaccurate. Although I absolutely believe that my WW felt that she truly loved the AP, the BS and their children, she was never a friend to any of them because a friend respects the concepts of safety, privacy, dignity, boundaries, etc. I don't feel that my anger is misdirected, I feel that the BS had the option, just as I did, to refrain from subjecting the other BS from any further trauma via continued contacts. Keep in mind- the BS at one point weeks after discovery contacted my home regarding the political aspirations of an uninvolved third party (see my original post). What does this have to do at all with her grief? I felt very incidental in the matter as a result.

AchillesHealed- thanks for sharing your story. I have not heard from the BS in over a year, so I don't fear any further contacts. Although based on your experiences, I guess it is always still possible.

I just did not need to be subjected to her comments at the time that she made them and something about that sticks with me.

I imagine the crux of it is here. Maybe she acted out in a way you wish you could have? Maybe you wish that someone in all of this mess would have just considered you for once?

I guess what most of us are gently trying to say, is that as unfair as it feels, and I am sure that it does, that it was not her responsibility to look out for you. (I am sorry). It might actually make you feel better to look at it that way, as the way you are currently seeing it is causing you distress.

Have I done things to be considerate of the OBS since dday? Yes. He was a friend, and I cared about him. Do I feel resentful sometimes, because I do not feel it is not coming this way? Yes. But, he has his own, very hard road to travel, and I think he is an enabler to the AP.

If the OBS had thrown my H under the bus so that it negatively affected our liveliehood, I can see being more upset . . or if he had hurt our son somehow. But, my H has to handle any personal fallout he gets from OBS, because it is his actions that caused it, and really - he is the only one to blame.

I am sorry if you are getting logic when you just need someone to understand your pain over this, but I think we all want you to feel better.

I disagree, but of course as a BW I would.

It takes two to tango. Your wife had a moral,ethical, and social obligation to stay out of her marriage.

Vows are taken before God and state to not "pull any marriage/covenant asunder".

That is why in some states the OW/OM can be sued for alienation of affection. That is why God considers it a mortal sin. Adultery. Coveting your neighbors spouse. At one point in history...she would have been stoned to death for sleeping with her husband.

Sure...he made the personal obligation. He made the vows to her marriage. But as a human being...as a citizen...so did your wife to be expected to respect others. To be expected to not be available to help him destroy his marriage.

You shouldn't make excuses for her behavior.

Thanks bionicgal:

Perhaps I am too passive in that I did not follow through with my genuine reaction after discovery, which probably would not have been in my best interests. I feel like again I was denied a voice in the matter. BS said dispariging things about my WW. Well, I felt the need to do the same to her husband while exposing her to the comments, as she did with me. Maybe that is my issue. I lacked the confidence in all this confusion to send this guy something to get it off my chest. Since the majority of posters here seem to support the BS's actions, I would think that would have applied to me as the other BS had I acted the same way. In some ways I'm not ashamed that I did not contact him or them.

If you (WW) are going to play with fire, you better expect to get burned by a married man's wife.

I'm probably not going to say anything that all the other poster's haven't said before, but your post really upset me.

Because, I would think that you as BH would understand completely the PAIN that BOTH your wife and her Husband, put us through.

In my case, the last thing I was thinking about in such a period of HELL, was how I was possibly hurting the other BH. Oh Yes, I contact the OW many times, I told her all kinds of horrible things, and I don't feel bad about it for one second. OW knew exactly what she was getting into and the possible consequences (not knowing how horrible I was going to react, if I was going to be violent, or whatever)- So your WW brought this onto YOUR LIFE.

She trying to commit suicide - maybe that was a last attempt at getting attention, maybe she is really depressed over loosing the AP or the possibility of everyone knowing what kind of person she is - I don't know. But I'm really sorry, no sympathy coming out of me.

my OW was a friend - that became a friend after starting with an EA - then PA with my husband - which I think makes it worst. It was deliberate, also befriended my kids, had dinner at my house numerous times. YES, my husband ALLOWED her to enter my life - had I known, I would of never ALLOWED her to enter my home - as you insinuated to the BW.

All I remember is the hurt of being betrayed by a friend and my husband, I was not thinking that the OW could commit suicide by me telling her how hurt I was by her betrayal.

In my case I tried to contact the BH, and he never wanted to talk to me, because most probably OW lied to him and I was crazy!!

I'm sorry if I offended you, that's how I felt, that was my way of healing, wrong? probably would of handled it differently today, but it was 10X worst what OW did to me and my family.

I am still bothered by her reaction probably because the irritation is driven by emotion not reason. Why do things bother people? I cannot casually dismiss something that genuinely still irritates me. Perhaps that is why I brought the topic to this forum. I feel like collateral damage and like my pain was considered incidental by the BS.

The BW probably feels the same way about your WW. She wasn't doing the venting to you. She was doing it to your WW. She probably had no idea that you would be hurt by it or take it personally. She probably thought you were disgusted with your WW as much as she was.

Anyways, are you stating that her reaction was driven by emotion or your irritation?

Hi hopefulmother- thanks for the reply.

"I disagree, but of course as a BW I would."

I am a BS too. That seems to be getting lost in the shuffle here.

"It takes two to tango. Your wife had a moral, ethical, and social obligation to stay out of her marriage."

I agree completely, and the same thing went for the BS's husband. The BS and myself were equally wronged. The difference is, I did not add to her woes with contacts that I was exposed to thereafter. I get the impression that you would not have faulted me if I had? How was I to ensure that their children would not have been exposed to such contacts however?

"Vows are taken before God and state to not "pull any marriage/covenant asunder".

My vows with WW made no mention of God, and I imagine, although I cannot cite the law verbatim, that those standards would be secular based on the separation of church and state.

"That is why God considers it a mortal sin. Adultery. Coveting your neighbors spouse."

I do not wish to digress into a theological discussion, but I am agnostic and feel that religion is completely unnecessary to lead a virtuous life, when a secular tradition of morality and ethics laid down by the Greeks already exists. The difference between the two is that the latter makes no claim for the concept of an afterlife, which again is unnecessary to live a moral life here on earth. I don't need the concept of a god to tell me that adultery is wrong. I have an innate understanding that it is wrong based on the fact that I would not and did not want it to happen to me.

"At one point in history...she would have been stoned to death for sleeping with her husband."

At one point in history, women were considered possessions just above cattle. What's your point?

"Sure...he made the personal obligation. He made the vows to her marriage. But as a human being...as a citizen...so did your wife to be expected to respect others. To be expected to not be available to help him destroy his marriage."

I agree. What does this have to do with the pain that I feel for how BS subjected me to her vitriolic responses after discovery?

"You shouldn't make excuses for her behavior."

You obviously did not read the full topic string. I have said repeatedly that I am not excusing her behavior, and WW's behavior has nothing to do with BS's response to it. BS could have chosen not to respond, but I assume was overwhelmed with the idea of her husband's betrayal and her children's exposure to it. I too was betrayed and almost lost my wife to suicide. Should I have also subjected the BS to vitriolic feedback aimed at her husband, for which she and her children would have nonetheless been exposed to?

"If you (WW) are going to play with fire, you better expect to get burned by a married man's wife."

And by your logic whoever gets in the way is fodder for your wrath. Sorry I disagree. Again, you are forgetting that I too was betrayed. Should BS's husband have expected to 'get burned' by a married woman's husband?

If you (WW) are going to play with fire, you better expect to get burned by a married man's wife.

word. and as a former WW, I expect I have an enemy for life.

as a BS, if my husband received a homewrecker card in the mail, I'd probably say, "honey, you have a delivery" and not feel an ounce badly about it. It's his shit to own. The voicemails would be his shit to own. Looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life? Well, what did he THINK was going to happen.

MPB

My BH and I can certain understand your resentment towards the BW.

My xap's BW was relentless in making our lives miserable. Stalked us at a funeral, harassed us at church, wrote disgusting (and untrue) things about me on her facebook page.

She also called my BH constantly with fake accounts of seeing me with her WS (again totally untrue) and tried to talk my BH into telling me she had photographic proof of us together to get me to 'crack' and confess.

I told him if he had a photo it wasn't me and I'd love to see it. That was several years ago but I think it was the point that he finally realized he could trust me and stopped taking her calls to commiserate with her.

He truly felt bad for her and so did I because I know that I was 50% responsible for the affair. But what she did was ridiculous.

My BH held his head high and never said a bad word publicly against her or her WS. We eventually left our church for a new start and are still together almost 3 years later. We even renewed our vows.

Xap and his BW got divorced and I feel very guilty for ruining their family (they had a small child) But I do wonder if she had focused more on trying to fix their relationship instead of ruining ours if they would have had a chance.