SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Any day the dreaded email will arrive asking about visitation over summer break.

XWH has no rights - his only concerns with the settlement were financial. Visitation is at my discretion. He has not paid the support he agreed nor supported his children in any meaningful way. (I may need to take him to court)

I have every right to say "no" to visitation. I know that most of you are "bigger" people than I am right now. If he has not upheld his obligations, why should support him in his perceived "rights"?

He is far away and has seen the kids 3 times in the last 16 months (1 of those times, I brought them to him).

He is shacked up with gold digging OW#3 spending thousands on her (think Channel earrings/bag, trips to ocean villas, braces for her "winning" smile, stewardess school, new iPad/iPhone, new leather coat etc.)

I do not support him in his relationship with the kids at all, but I have been trying not to be an obstacle if he actually makes an effort (rare).

However this summer …. I am thinking no visitation. No pay, no play.

If you were in my situation, what would you do?

I am pretty sure the courts look at it as 2 separate issues, and that it would be frowned upon to deny visitation based on non-payment. Your best bet is to take him to court for the child support.

I am not in the US and he truly as NO rights to visitation where he is ….

[This message edited by ALittleLost at 11:04 AM, April 28th (Monday)]

Here's my take. When your kids are older and can make their own opinions of their father and the situation, you don't want them (or him) to ever be able to say that you kept them from him. Let him screw it up all on his owBut your kids deserve a chance to know their father.

For me kids happiness comes before mine. If he is wanting to have time with them,then I would forfeit the money issue and let them go. Kids need their parents, both of them. If you keep them from him and they find out later that he wanted them, there is a chance they will blame you for everything.

That's been my thought since this whole thing started more than 3 years ago. I know that my ex has compromised his relationship with our children. He chose to leave them. Any dad that does that will have to answer for it later on down the road. My kids are little now and don't see as much as they will when they are older. What they know now is that he left and they had to adapt to this new visitation schedule. Sometimes they hate it; other times they are okay. If they had their choice, they would want him home and together with their mother. They would want their family back. They say it all the time.

If they can't have that, they try to survive on the next best thing, which is to at least see him and have a relationship with him. If I could, for my own purely selfish reasons, I would keep them away from him. I think he's a lazy father, I don't think he deserves them, and I hate the fact that they are around the pig, slunt OW.

BUT, what I have to continue to understand is that it's not about me anymore. I don't have to see him. I don't have to be around her and I don't have to know anything that happens in their lives, as long as my kids are not hurt. It's none of my business anymore. My kids, on the other hand, have to live with this for the rest of their lives. He will always be their father so they unfortunately are left to navigate their relationship and any issues that are going to stem from him leaving them.

While they are in the process of doing that, I don't ever want them coming back to me years down the road and accusing me of keeping them from their father. I want them to realize, that if it does play out how I think it will, that it was all him and his choices.

As with everything having to do with infidelity, I want them to realize that mom had nothing to do with it. Their relationship with their dad is theirs and it's his to either nurture or ruin.

Unless you feel that the kids will be unsafe or that they are somehow in danger during a summer visitation, I wouldn't keep them from their dad. They will realize everything that they need to realize about his character and his attitude toward them. But, they should learn that on their own.

That doesn't mean I think you should hesitate to take him back to court for failing to honor his financial obligations. The emotional relationship and the ability to have access to their father is a different issue.

You have stated that he has no rights and it is completely at your discretion. He has shown very little interest in the kids so far.

Set your terms and stick to them. I would definitely insist that any visitation take place in your town. The kids do NOT go with him out of town nor anywhere near OW. This is all assuming you're comfortable with unsupervised visitation.

And of course, I would take the opportunity to present him with an itemized statement of his owed support payments. Make him sign an acknowelegement of receipt for any future court action.

ETcorrect grammar.

[This message edited by Gemini71 at 1:10 PM, April 28th (Monday)]

I wouldn't allow visitation. He has had no interest in the children, so continue as you have been.

If he asks, start with a phone call schedule, and see if he continues with it or stops after the first call. Would be a good indication of how much attention he would give the children if he saw them.

I can weigh in on this.

my first H was/is an ass of the most epic proportions. the day we got divorced, I asked him if he wanted to set up a visitation schedule. his answer was "if I can't have you I don't want him"

seriously. how sad, huh?

anyhow, he disappeared for months. then came and wanted a visit. I let DS go for the weekend.

two years later, he wanted another weekend. DS, then 3, came home mimicking smoking a joint and yelling "ROCK AND ROLL" supervised visits for the next 6 months.

then he disappeared for the next how ever many years it was, only showing up in my driveway periodically to play best friends with DS

THEN asshat shows up at DS HS graduation, and pronounces to a crowd (I kid you not this is what he said) I have four kids by three mothers and I didn't help raise any of them, but look how good this one turned out! ugh

nowadays???? DS has nothing to do with asshat. He's been legally adopted by my H, whom he has called dad since he was 3 yrs old. DS has a little girl that asshat INSISTS is his granddaughter, and can't accept that DS will not insist she call him grandpa.

all this to say:: you don't have to "get in the way", your EX will shoot himself in the foot every step of the way, and when the are older, your kids will absolutely see him for what he is, unless, somewhere along the way, he fixes it with them.

My mother gave me the best advice when I got divorced-- she said no matter HOW HARD it was, to never, ever speak a bad word about asshat in front of DS, and I didn't, ever. I even worked on my tone of voice to keep the negativity out of it. There were times that I thought I was going to bite THRU my tongue, for sure.

but now?? no worries. My DS is one smart cookie, and he knows the truth, even without me ever saying anything.

hard as it may be, support your kids if they want a visit, you'll be the one to benefit from the kudos later.....

oh, and the CS he never paid??? LOL we used that to our advantage also--- when my H wanted to adopt, asshat didn't want to sign the papers, so he was given a choice:: pay up (owed mid 5 figures), sign the papers, or go to jail. guess what choice he made??

[This message edited by dailyflowers at 5:04 PM, April 28th (Monday)]

I wouldn't punish him for not paying CS by withholding kids.

I would, however, want to protect my kids from a disinterested and uninvested father. 3 times in 16m must be awful for the kids. I'd rather he not be around at all than to have him appear and disappear for no inexplicable reason.

Does your 7 y/o talk about or ask for his father? Does he talk to them at all? Remember what you do now has long-term consequences. They will ask about him in future even if they don't now.

When they are grown you will need a better reason than "he didn't pay CS" for why they didn't ever see their father.

I agree that you need to separate the two issues of visitation and CS - ethically if not legally.

I would not be sending them far away to see him - especially not an infant. I would offer visitation locally. He can't just show up 16m later and take your kids - the little one especially will feel like he is a stranger.

I assume X chose to move far away? Is there a reason he has no rights? Did he sign them away or are you in a country where it is the default? Are you struggling financially?

I would caution against using the kids as weapons. They have rights here too.

I don't know all the ins and outs of what he has done to your kids.

So, with that said, you know your situation best.

I don't look at it as punishing him but as hurting your kids or helping your kids depending on the situation.

If he is decent and attentive to his children, and they are genuinely happy after being with their father, then it is vital not to damage them by taking their other parent away from them.

I totally understand the anger about the CS. But really him paying or not paying CS isn't something that they as children can understand. All they will remember is either A. Mom hated Dad and decided to punish us and we didn't do anything wrong, or B. Mom loved us but had to do her job to protect us from someone that was only capable of hurting us.

Put your anger aside, you can do this. Put your children's best interest first. If it is keeping him from them to protect them, then so be it. Do what you have to do. If it is to bite the bullet and endure him so that your children can have both parents in their life, then do that.

You have all given me a lot to think about. And more to say (I may need to break it up in a few posts).

First of all, a little context ….

X comes from a place where divorce is rare. And for good reason. In 90% of cases, the mother gets custody, but in most of these cases, the court grants her little (if anything) in terms on ongoing support. Most women are SAHM. If a couple does divorce, it is common for the father to never see his children again. I am not saying this is good (or bad); it is just the cultural norm. The court system is not geared for disputes around custody and child maintenance.

Which is why when we D, I put together an agreement in which I got a larger share of the assets and in return, his ONLY real obligation was to pay 1/2 out of pocket medical and into a fund to save for college. The accounts are in their names and I don't get a penny. Ever. I believe our contract is enforceable, but it will take me a great deal of time and effort to get through the system. And I need to do it from overseas operating in a foreign language and spending a large amount of money.

So …. what I am really angry about is all of the money he is spending on someone he insisted to everyone meant nothing to him. And completely (physically, emotionally, and financially) abandoning his boys. He makes a 6 figure salary, just bought a bmw, has a swanky apartment with all new furniture, all the latest tech gadgets. He regularly takes trips to 5 star luxury hotels all over and has lush expensive parties. But he hasn't followed through on a relatively minimal contribution to his children's college fund.

I am on a roll ….

In terms of being an active involved parent ….

What he has done:

- Called each week for 5-20 min (but not without fail). If he has other plans (such as those luxury trips), he doesn't bother

- Visited twice

- Made promises to come to events (that he had NO intention of attending) and then breaking them

- Lashed out at me for not actively reaching out and giving him info on events/activities

What he has not done:

- Continue to receive school newsletters/activity regular updates that he used to receive so he has a clue what is happening there

- Talked to me about any topic other than the money he is not paying or what time he should call

- Called or remembered the important events that he did know about

I used to think he was a great dad. What I realized though, was that although he played with them (and for that they idolize him), he never did any heavy lifting. He did not do nights or discipline or diaper changing, or difficult talks or school hunting or finding activities or doctor visits or teacher meetings or chauffeuring or homework. And if he did any of these things, it was rare, grudgingly and because I asked.

Now that he has to do more than play with them, he seems to have realized that he is really not up to it.

I never realized how much I or someone else "greased" the relationships in his life to make them work. And to some extent, his expectation is that I (and others) continue to bend over backwards for him. When he came here, we had a huge fight. He arrived on Monday, but kept in a secret and stayed in an expensive hotel with OW. He showed up on Friday saying he had just arrived. He had every expectation that he should be entitled to stay in my guest room free of charge and come and go as he pleased. He was also bold enough to call up my babysitter and have her cook for him and the kids so that they could come over and have a free (and prepared) lunch.

If he asks for summer visitation, he will likely expect me to take days off work and fly them to his location and then pick them up again. He might also require that I am "on call" to come and get the little one should he not be able to handle him during the night. He did this over the 2 days he had them last. I will be expected to have all necessities purchased and packed. And I will have to arrange pick off/drop off times, places etc.

Ah, no. He does not get that much consideration from you. Regardless of any monies owed.

If that is the extent of his parenting abilities, let him come to YOUR town and visit the kids. If he can't handle an overnight, let him bring them back to YOU. Don't enable his lousy parenting.

And if your kids ask in the future, you can honestly say that POS was always welcome to COME and visit them.

ONE adult is WAY more portable and able to be flexible than 3 children.

No Way would I kowtow to his lunatic "demands."

I'm not so sure that kids need to have both parents in their lives in some cases.

Kids deserve to have a good father.

Unfortunately that is not always the case. Also kids deserve a good mother. X's OW is a good example of a bad mother and there are many, many more examples.

There are cases where the kids would be better off not having contact with the father (see: Nature_Girl and BrokenDaisy)

I think maybe in some cases it's best for the kids to have one good parent. That's the best I can hope for with my girls.

I debated and debated about whether I should leave this little tidbit out, but it is a key factor in all of this ….

X now has a certain illness (direct result of his activities) that means he is banned from entering the country I live in. He visited a neighboring country the first time and I took the kids there. The second visit he got special permission from the government to come in. I think he was applying again, but I don't know if he just decided it was too much effort (and expense without being able to crash at my place) or if they refused him.

You can't write novels as messed up as this …..

If your divorce decree is clear about visitation being at your discretion, this is up to you and he likely can't do anything about it.

As for delinquent child support, he is in contempt of court on child support which has implications under federal as well as state laws. Have your attorney press the issue.

Well then, looks like he gave up the right to visit his kids when he continued with his risky behavior resulting in his illness. I agree with Lola2kids. Sometimes the kids are better off with just one good parent.

Wow... I think I would *allow* visitation with conditions.

Those conditions being:

-He has to come to you... no meeting him anywhere, no planning on your part.

-He has to have his own accommodations.

-NO OW ALLOWED. At. All.

-He has to meet his financial obligations.

It's pretty obvious he will NOT comply. However, at least you can say you didn't deny visitation.

Any real man, and any real father would have no problems with these conditions. Clearly, he's neither.