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Outofthedeep

I read the messages and they were flirty but not really sexual. It upset me but I did trust her and at the time it just didn't register as an affair to me. It would go on for awhile then I would get pissed about something and she would be normal again. WW is vibrant and chatty and she was always the center of attention. She is flirty by nature I guess. I guess I was stupid and allowed it because I loved her and didn't think it would ever get that far. I rugsweep them all at that time. The term EA was not known to me. Cheating was sex ya know.

During our last talk I did ask if she had ever cheated before and she said no. I did consider them affairs at this point but I didn't push the issue with her. I was just chalking it up to another lie.

I really think that she didn't consider them affairs either, I didn't at first.

I really think that she didn't consider them affairs either, I didn't at first.

I know a lot of people don't consider them affairs at first blush. They are betrayals, but they seem by some folks (my first IC included) to be harmless or understandable or whatever. "It's just chatting" blah blah blah.

ETA: Just to be clear - that's not to say that EAs aren't damaging, painful, brutal betrayals just as physical ones are. In my mind, it's the difference between being stabbed and shot.

It's a normal part of the processing for BS to revisit things from the past through the new and somewhat brutal lens of having been betrayed. Everything gets a new viewing, a closer examination, and is measured against what we know now. It's just part and parcel of our journey, regardless of whether we are headed toward R or D.

The fact that your WW is doing the same is an encouraging indicator for her self-examination and potential growth. That can only be of benefit, even if your future relationship is one of divorced co-parents.

[This message edited by nowiknow23 at 11:03 AM, June 19th (Thursday)]

Keep educating your WW Swat.

She is still coming to the realization just how f'd up she really is.

Just how crappy a wife she really was.

Not to hurt her. She has done that all on her own.

But if she becomes aware of all her crappy behavior well then she start fixing all her crappy behavior.

It is a process. A long process.

HM

I absolutely agree with every word of painfulpast's last post.

Every word.

The only thing I have to add to painfulpast's post is about the notebook. Now I am a former prosecutor and probably prone to be suspicious, but I REALLY don't understand why she kept it. The risk of keeping it to me would seem obvious - so what was it that made her think that risk was worth running? It contained stuff that was incredibly hurtful and she knew that. So why? It almost sounds like it was a souvenir of some sort.

Honestly in many ways it is obvious she is trying. I really think she is truly trying to make it up to you. But there is a part of her that even at best is self-destructive. Visiting the OM one last time. Keeping a journal. Terrible decisions given what I think are her very real attempts at recovering. I would want to understand the why behind that during any R. And I wouldn't settle for just the "I acted stupid" explanation. I would want a real answer.

[This message edited by redsox13 at 1:01 PM, June 19th (Thursday)]

All BS's want answers. Honest answers.

But when a WS does such stupid things do you really think they have the answers at hand?

Of course not.

It takes months sometimes years for them to unravel the damage, get emotions under control and the damage assessment to be completed.

Only then can the WS focus on themselves and figure out why they made such horrendous decisions.

SS17 has already owned her affair. She has already reached the conclusion the POSOM is not only crazy but a danger to her family.

She also realizes the OM used her. To intentionally hurt SWAT at work.

It will take a while for her to figure out the "WHY".

Let's support SWAT. In whatever direction his marriage and recovery takes.

That is what is most important.

HM

Hi swat. My bs meter flickered when she said she 'just realized'.

Did yours too?

You can ask her if she really 'just realized' if you like. You can ask her anything you like. Facing questions like this is expected of her if she is interested in R with you.

Now for the flip side: My WW also had a bunch of male friends throughout our relationship. Honestly some of them were friends of mine too. Sometimes she would openly flirt with them, but there was always this kind of attitude like "yea right like that would ever happen." It was almost flattering to me that these guys would flirt with her and she'd give them a half-assed flirt back. To me it was kind of a "yea, my wife is awesome and you'll never have her."

She didn't think there was anything wrong with it. Neither did I. I honestly didn't even think about it until after she was in IC for a while and kind of realized all this was inappropriate. I could see it in her eyes. And then I realized it too.

So i suppose it is possible she 'just realized.' But she does have a history of being afraid to spill the whole truth and trying to protect herself by spinning the truth.

My gut tells me its somewhere in between, that she wants to be honest with you but is maybe minimizing a bit here out of fear? What does your gut tell you?

Edit: Re-reading your post I see you said "she now recalls" or something similar. I could go back and edit all the 'just realized' but... eh.

[This message edited by saturnpatrick at 6:24 PM, June 19th (Thursday)]

God I hate this crap. It is changing me and I don't like it. I went to see WW and she was on the site. ICR to be exact readings BS questions for WS. I posted questions there and got very upset with her. I said some very nasty things to her. That just isn't me.

SWAT,

Your reactions are pretty much just normal processing of everything that's going on. You are coming up on 6 months out from DDay. For a lot of BS this is about when the anger stage kicks in.

Unfortunately, yes, going through this hell hole of an experience will change us. Keep working on you, and it will help you to control it. Do things that make you feel good (working out, fishing, music, etc). While it sucks to hear.....it takes time my friend.

God I hate this crap. It is changing me and I don't like it. I went to see WW and she was on the site. ICR to be exact readings BS questions for WS. I posted questions there and got very upset with her. I said some very nasty things to her. That just isn't me.

She's been reading your posts. Funny, I mention "poly" in your thread, next thing you know....well that's all I'm saying.

Hi, Swat. I've just been released from hospital - there for 10 days and not much to do but think. I thought a lot about your wife and you and hoped you were doing better. Just got caught up with everything here and I am happy to hear about the weekly dinners and chats.

I wanted to ask you about this:

So the hits keep on coming. Sort of anyway. WW asks to talk briefly before I have to work. Seems she now recalls having four EA's. I'll give her credit she just spit it all out and seemed to be remorseful. I think she was in a panic and thought I would be angry.

I may have missed you already answering something like what I'm going to ask but can you tell me what your wife does outside of being a mom and a wife? Does she also work? Does she have a full life, as in hobbies, interests, maybe even some sort of charity work? I know with three little ones there is not really much time for a lot more but I see so many women get themselves into trouble because of nothing more than boredom. Not that they don't love their lives, their children, their husbands but just need some sort of escape. The Internet has been a whole new world for some in that regard, which can be good but can also be bad, obviously.

I don't want to sound all zen or anything (in regard to her 'finding' herself and having a life beyond what she already has) but do you think that may have been the case for her? I'm wondering because this is the first I heard about the four "affairs" online, which I'm not really sure I would classify as that. I think it is fantastic she is delving into it more, though.

I do wish you both the best. I picture your lives together and I see so much potential for you working this out. I hope it can come to that.

[This message edited by cissi at 12:07 AM, June 20th (Friday)]

Her realizations and honesty about her past are a major break-through.

Keep some things in mind:

The general consensus here on SI is that affairs take place because of a process in the WS. It’s not that OM was so special but rather that the OM was available, sent the right signals and was receptacle for her signals at the right time.

[This is an important concept to grasp because once you do and you accept this then the OM becomes irrelevant in any comparison to you. She didn’t select him because HE was special – she selected him because he was capable of fulfilling her wrongly derived needs.]

It’s been shown again and again that people tend to progress into doing wrong in steps. It tends to be a development rather than something that spontantly happens. Your WW has been progressing towards infidelity and some of those first steps might not be considered “infidelity” until we look back and see how they were stepping-stones for the next development.

The term “emotional affair” is a relatively new one. Some say it wasn’t really defined and recognized before Dr. Shirley Glass published the research her book “Not Just Friends” in 1985. [IF you and W decide to research reconciliation then that book should be #1 on your to-read list.]

In her journey to self-understanding your wife is going to make numerous realizations about what behaviors, actions and situations led her to feel like something was missing and hopefully how to resolve those issues correctly. To us BS that’s going to sound and feel like trickle-truth… but maybe it isn’t. Like your WW journal and the pictures… THAT’S trickle-truth. Those were actions taken during an undeniable affair and the existence of which was denied to you. Her FB convos with those men – IMHO not trickle truth because she wasn’t capable of seeing it as infidelity related until she started understanding the problem. Had she not phoned you with that realization and had it come to the table later… then it’s trickle truth. So as hard as it might be then you should feel grateful that she’s being honest and forthright.

SWAT – about her reading and posting on SI.

I don’t know if she’s reading your posts on JFO. If she is and if toby’s assumption is correct then she is either extremely naïve or extremely wise. There have been other more pertinent issues than the poly mentioned in your thread that she has made no mention of. Maybe the issue is that posters are carrying messages between the threads and/or PM’s.

About her posting and reading on other forums and threads…

Well… Do you two have any ground-rules other than you stay off her threads and she stays off yours? If not then keep in mind the progress she has already made is in great part from the (harsh) support she’s getting from the other WS here on the wayward forum. I would encourage her to read here on SI and to participate on other threads and issues. Just like I would encourage you to reach out to others once you feel up to it.

One issue SWAT – Why did you walk in on her? Where are you two located in your journey? If you were determined to D then basically the house is her residence, the barn yours and basically you semi-forfeit the right to enter and leave as you please. This is something many of us have been trying to hammer into you: Divorce is NOT an alternative relationship to marriage. In fact – if you are committed to D then your wife has no obligation whatsoever in talking to you about the affair and frankly – you no need to hear more about it.

Sometimes the lines aren’t clear…

Are you headed for divorce or are you headed for reconciliation?

If your attorney phoned you today and told you that the process could be speeded up – would you accept and start the difficult decisions of assets, custody and all that? IMHO even amicable divorce tends to turn messy and it’s an extremely rare case where divorced people reconnect.

Look – It’s OK to take things slow. In fact – I strongly suggest you don’t stop the D process right now. I also suggest you two don’t really focus on D details… Right now you two simply focus on communications. You stay in the barn and have time and space to heal. If you and W want to date, then fine. If you want to talk to her about the affair, then fine. If you want to spend time communicating with her without a commitment to R then fine. But try to give out as clear a message as possible and remember what expectations are realistic within the scope of that message.

IMHO it’s OK to be totally honest about where you are right now regarding the relationship. It’s OK to tell W that you would want a 20-30 day period where you stay in the barn, you two talk and then you see how that develops. Might lead to D – might lead to R.

What you are going through is probably the reason the state has the waiting period. It allows people time to contemplate the decision and then commit to it IF that’s what they really want.

I don’t know the purpose of the dinner-dates. Rekindle emotions or time to talk? It’s OK for you two to take it slow and see if you can at least be comfortable near each other. IF this ends in D then this will enhance your abilities to co-parent. If it ends in R then fine too. This will be time well spent.

I think cissi raised some important points regarding your wife.

SWAT70,

I said some very nasty things to her. That just isn't me.

The only time I EVER said intentionally hurtful or meanspirited things to stbxFWW was in the first months after dday. That is also the only time in my life I ever threw anything in anger. Not her things, not at her, but I was stuggling with my anger.

I guess my point is you are not alone in this, and as you process through this stuff and get to acceptance it gets better. I am very much back to the person I remember myself as, but with some new toughness and coping skills.

--Ats

I don’t know if she’s reading your posts on JFO. If she is and if toby’s assumption is correct then she is either extremely naïve or extremely wise. There have been other more pertinent issues than the poly mentioned in your thread that she has made no mention of. Maybe the issue is that posters are carrying messages between the threads and/or PM’s.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that if she was reading she would be mentioning everything. Maybe she's just popping in every now and then and reading a bit here and there. I've also noticed eerily timed mentioning of things too and not just the poly.

At this point, it doesn't even matter other than she's clearly not ready to let go of the outcome of the M and is focusing on herself in hopes of winning SWAT back. She made that clear by saying she'll never stop fighting for SWAT. What if SWAT wanted her to stop? Would she ignore his needs again in favor of her own? Would she still fight for him if he moved on and got a new relationship by making problems for him there? I find her sentiments about it, though well meaning, to be disconcerting and still thinking like a WW. It's nice to say you will fight for someone forever but in practice, it's really selfish especially when that person is trying to move on from you. You're still placing your needs above theirs.

Affairs make BSes a little crazy for a while. Be careful -- I raged, said hurtful and ugly things, and I threw things. . .not at all my normal means of coping or interacting. I didn't recognize myself; the pain is extreme.

I am not joking when I say to be aware that you can have very erratic behavior - especially since I assume you have firearms around.

Bigger, your right. I had absolutely no right to go into the house. Habit I guess. One more thing I'm going to have to change. I'm starting to think staying on the property is a bad idea. I did it to be close to the kids but then I'm also seeing her everyday as well. That's making this a lot tougher I think.

My idea for the dinners was an opportunity for each of us to talk about whatever was on our minds that week. I was an ass yesterday but we were still going to have dinner tonight. It's my weekend off so it just seemed like a good time. I wanted to discuss the vacations this summer. Since we are splitting time with the kids. I wanted them for the vacation July fourth week. I have paid for both trips already. That is the trip to OC Maryland. She would have the August trip to Maine.

Your point about the waiting period and if the d could be speed up really hit me. I'm still trying to be a "family" but d has been filed. It's time to really separate. So maybe it's time for me to find my own place. Talk about bad timing though, summer time and I won't have the pool. I love using that pool.

ETA. I think more space is definetly needed right now. I'm rethinking the whole amicable thing. I don't mean get nasty, but there won't be family events. Just each of us spending more of our time with the kids. It's tough because of the youngest though. He's a clinger to her. I also think maybe I wasn't completely ready to let her go. Maybe I'm also being too clingy? I may have some issues if she started dating.

[This message edited by SWAT70 at 11:36 AM, June 20th (Friday)]

I forgot this earlier. OM was released from jail today but he isn't going to trial for his charges. He's taking a plea bargain and is going to be sentenced July 18. Time served and a guilty plea to the DWI and one PO violation. He's got a hefty fine and any further arrests for either crime in the next ten years is a felony charge.

Hey SWAT. You know WW the best.

Your head is saying to separate more. Your heart continues to break with tremendous pain.

Did you ever figure out what your gut says?

yop

YOP. No I haven't and that maybe my problem. I feel like I'm splitting at the seams and I can't stop it. I'm stepping away for awhile. Don't know when I'll be back. Thanks everyone.

Deep breath SWAT. You have too much going on. It's clear you are being overwhelmed. You have so much advice coming at you here, honestly I think you need to ignore it all for now and get your head together.

You have this weekend off. Can you give BIL a call for some hang time. Clear your head for a bit?