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As BSs, we are supposed to watch if their actions and their words match, right?

He has always been a bit shit at communicating - that's his major FOO issue - none of them talk about anything. Right now WH is saying he don't know if he wants to work on it. Or stay together or basically answers any question with "I don't know how I feel (or want)." The closest I heard wa "I guess." He says he loves me, but he said he "loved" ( ) her, too. He hasn't once asked how he can make it up to me.

I understand he's hurt, angry, scared, rejected and just really broken inside. He knows what a fool and how used he has been. It's hard to watch someone you love mourn for someone else and simultaneously want to comfort them and throat-punch them.

In all probability he is depressed and suffering from PTSD and/or ASD - but I'm not qualified to make that call. I guess it's "the fog?" I asked last night if he would seek counseling for himself and he said "I guess" with such apathy.

Anyway, he's fence-sitting but his actions are all saying he wants to stay. This is where I get confused. He's still doing all the little husband things he normally does for me. He calls me every morning when he gets to work as I requested, despite me saying he no longer has to do it as he threw a shitfit on this week about my "demands." He reports how he spent money that day (still spotty on giving me receipts), again even though I told him I don't care right now.

I have woken up every single night with him holding me. We are still sharing a bed - no sex until I go for STD work on Saturday and get the results. My gut tells me that he is telling the truth about not sleeping with her, but better safe than sorry.

I don't really know what I am asking here. Guess I'm just looking for a sounding board and some support.

To me, the actions matter most. Some are just not great speakers. Mine, for example, puts his foot in his mouth trying to convey a message and comes off wrong. Intended message may be quite different for him. Clarify if unsure and watch the actions if R is your choice.

IMHO: "I guess, I'm not sure" are clear indicators on how serious they are taking the issue. My WW has said that numerous times and her actions or inaction's tell me she really doesn't want to be married to me any longer.

He may be doing things now but it's really about the long haul. You can't just make a judgement call based on a few weeks, or months if the choice is R, unless they are saying they will try and do the total opposite, or if they say they are not sure and demonstrate the inability to actually do anything necessary.

[This message edited by LostSamurai at 12:14 PM, May 30th (Friday)]

Exactly how I feel, LostSamurai.

I'm one of those people who go into crisis mode and have to take, or in this case see, proactive movement towards a solution. It hasn't even been a week yet, but I have no urge to sit in limbo. Am I just rushing things?

I told him he has until this weekend to sort it out or I will be seeing lawyer on Monday. I don't want a divorce.

Boy, I hear you!

I just read something elsewhere that made me think of this. My H has said several times in casual conversations since DDay that he's smart enough to know what rules don't apply to him. Are you effing kidding me?! No wonder he's still not NC! Is he even capable of feeling remorse?!

But he is going to MC with me and has started IC and I know he is going to do the work of fixing his shit. So there are actions in that direction too.

I just hope I can stick around long enough to see him get to the remorse.

I just hope I can stick around long enough to see him get to the remorse.

I literally just flapped my hands at the screen in agreement. I can't and won't wait about forever. It's very frustrating to see what needs to be done and not being able to kick them on the right path.

I think the "actions v words" mantra is usually like this: The Wayward is saying he loves you and 100% wants to stay married, but is still contacting the OW.

In your case your husband isn't even saying for sure he wants the marriage. he is saying he doesn't know. In that instance, I would take stock in his words. If someone is wishy-washy and unsure, you should let them go. You deserve to be with someone who knows what they want (ie - you)

Also, I don't believe his actions are actually showing he wants to stay married. Gently, holding you in bed,a nd calling youf rom work aren't really much effort for him, and wouldnt show much to me. He's not being transparent financially. He's not actively seeking IC. He's not asking you what he can do to make things better.

What I see is a man whose telling you he's not sure whether he wants to be married, and his actions are reinforcing that.

I say push him off the fence.

Thank you, Shining. And that's what 50% of me thinks and feels about this. And 100% of what I fear.

The other 50% feels like from our 17 year history that when he's mad or whatever at me, he won't call or touch me and is a downright bastard.

How long do I wait? Or do I? I know, there's no answer for that. But once I start the separation process, for me there is no going back. I'm not ready to let go yet. I feel so weak.

I also recommend, set a date on top of what everyone else is saying.

I set a date, and plan to act by then if I don't see what needs to be done.

I don't tell her what needs to be done. She should know right off the bat. If you have to say something, and they aren't asking then it is already a down hill battle from there.

No need to babysit and try to heal. It's too hard and too annoying. And the WS takes for granted the Reconciliation that you offer when they are NOT SURE, or THEY GUESS.

The other 50% feels like from our 17 year history that when he's mad or whatever at me, he won't call or touch me and is a downright bastard.

How long do I wait? Or do I? I know, there's no answer for that. But once I start the separation process, for me there is no going back. I'm not ready to let go yet. I feel so weak.

I don't think the issue is whether or not he's mad at you. Honestly, most Waywards aren't necessarily "mad" at their betrayed spouses. in contract, they usually go full throttle into being loving, i'll do anything to save our marriage type behavior.

I think that you can give him 2 weeks to see if he makes a drastic turn in attitude, including openly declaring his commitment to you, and coming up with a plan for how he will restore your trust.

I understand you're weak. I'm sure staying with your husband will be tolerable. He will be nice at times, loving at times, things will be normal and life will continue. Until you realize he's still cheating.

Two weeks from today puts us at our 11th Wedding /17 year "being together" anniversary. Seems fitting.

Guess it's time to fully enable the 180.

If I haven't said it yet, he is a colossal asshole for putting me through this shit.

I suggest figuring out what actions you want to see from him, telling him what they are, and seeing if he steps up.

'I guess' and not asking how he can make this up to you could come from shame, guilt, depression, confusion, or a zillion other things, but you're not sure, so I think one requirement is that he and you learn to communicate with each other ... MC sounds like a good way to start that.

IC to figure out how to change from cheater to good partner is, IMO, essential for WSes, assuming you can find a good IC.

What else would show remorse to you?

If you don't want to spell this out for him, it could mean you, too, have a communication problem, or that you don't want to R, or a different zillion other things.... Figure out where you are, where you want to be, and how to get from here to there. You can do this.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:41 PM, May 30th (Friday)]

Thank you all.

I wrote him a list on Monday and he lost his shit. Screamed about demands and being a prisoner and all this other crap. He had been drinking, which is a separate issue directly related to his after-war persona. Then the next day proceeded to do almost all the things I asked.

Remorse for me is making a dedicated effort to show me I can trust him: handing over receipts without being asked, letting me have his gmail password so if I need to I can check where he is (I have access to his actual emails, but not this one anymore), letting me see his phone (which he does) without asking me to hand it back after 30 seconds. Just asking what he can do to fix this. Leaving his job if I need that, which I honestly might. Understand right now, he has no right to secrets. That's what remorse looks like to me.

He's not, and never has been, an introspective guy.

I suppose I am holding back too much for anyone to be of much help. Truth is I knew something was going on before he really started with her but could not get any evidence. I would wait for him to pass out from drinking and check his phone - never found a damn thing. He did all his communicating with her through work and the occasional texts which he deleted. I feel vindicated that my gut was right. I had even told my IC to go fuck himself because he told me I was being paranoid and driving WS away. (off topic: tempted to call the asshat and tell him to turn in his license). My gut is telling me he is truly NC, barring work related issues, and that he feels like a fool and an idiot. He sent the NC text - I approved and saw it the day after D-day. My gut is also telling me that she dropped him like a hot potato when the money stopped coming in and he sees that. He was fine on the weekend but on Monday when he had to go to work and face her and himself, he got nasty. Classic transference.

He was fine on the weekend but on Monday when he had to go to work and face her and himself, he got nasty. Classic transference.

Not necessarily. A lot of waywards pick fights or act nasty to the spouse before seeing their AP b/c in their mind it helps justify their betrayals (ie well she doesn't love me anyway, so might as well spend time with OW)

Honestly I still don't see it in him. So he went 2 days doing everything you asked. Im sorry but that is NOTHING.

This man is still fighting R each step of the way.

I highly suspect he is still engaged in the affair on some level.

Very gently, if he abuses alcohol or drugs, he's not a candidate for R.

You've described 2 people. One sem to be on board for R. The other is just effed up all over the place. Unless and until he decides to become the on board R person full time, R is impossible - and it will be very hard even after he gives up his addictions, because thy have a powerful hold.

Very tough choice for you.

Doesnt matter. You were all right. Im just a fucking idiot.

rut roh - today is a dday for you...

{{Broken613}}

So sorry broken.

Sending you hugs and strength tonight.