SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank y'all for the thoughtful, honest answers.

When your wife asks "do these pants make my butt look big", what do you say? My husband says it's a trick question: he says, you can't say yes because then you're an asshole and you can't say no because then you're a liar. I ask him here and there even though I'm fairly fit and petite, but certain pants look better than others, you know.

I'm not a guy, but I say make it about the pants, not her butt. The pants are flattering or they are not flattering. Also, if she really does have a big butt, think in terms of whether the pants make her butt look bigger than it really is or not.

Good responses when the pants don't look good:

I don't think they flatter you.

They make you look bigger than you really are.

Bad responses when the pants don't look good:

It's not the pants.

OMG...you're huge!

This may be a naive sort of question...

How does a woman know if a man wants to have sex to 'fuck' or to 'make love'? Is there any sign of him just needg a physical release as opposed to wanting to be close emotionally?

TIA

How does a woman know if a man wants to have sex to 'fuck' or to 'make love'? Is there any sign of him just needg a physical release as opposed to wanting to be close emotionally?

*phew*

Ok, that one isn't so easy. I can only speak for myself but I'm rarely conscious of my motivation being just one or the other. It's usually a combination of both with one being stronger.

Imissmyhusb,

How does anybody know? Women occasionally also have sex just for the physical release (let's call it "chemical needs".

Near my DDay my IC 2x4'd me when I said that I only had sex for making love while expressing the pain. He said that's plainly bull, even if I had been a virgin until STBX. "If you've ever self-pleasured, you've done it just for the physical release" was the first retort. Also "in a long term M as yours, you've both done it just for the physical release at least once". We're human animals. With chemical needs. Both sexes are capable of it. Otherwise "battery operated boyfriends" and one night stands wouldn't be a thing.

Now having said that, there are some ground rules that seem to be safe to establish for both sexes:

* A one night stand is almost always about the physical release. Not saying it won't have an emotional component during or after (some good relationships do start as ONS), but that it starts with chemicals, not emotions. I am biased against them, but I think a woman puts herself in a lot of risk by doing ONSs.

* A man (or woman) who tries to race through the steps to turn it romantic and then tries to take you to bed ASAP is more likely to be responding to chemical need than emotions (and is more likely to be NPD/BPD, btw, though of course it's not the only factor). If you both race through (i.e. you both have that need) that's a different story, but ideally the "chemically slower-paced" member of the couple should be the one who gets to set the tone, because it's the one putting more at risk by opening up emotional channels first. If one side wants there to be emotion first, the other side's responsibility is to slow down on the chemistry thing.

Chemical and emotional love are a Ying/Yang thing. If you're in love you should have both. A woman, who is auditory in her desire, will typically want to start emotionally. Men, visual creatures that we are, usually start with physical appearance and start talking to find an emotional connection.

Now how to tell there's an emotional connection? I'd think of your conversations and look for moments of emotional self disclosure. How much do you know of the times he's felt happy, angry, excited, sad...? Flirting is an expression of desire. Emotional self disclosure is an openness that is reserved for those we care about, particularly in men, who don't do this a lot as a rule. As Brandon808 has mentioned, many men are only barely conscious of the motivator difference (and the dominant motivation can also change at any time during the interaction in typical Ying/Yang fashion). Emotions and feelings are not static.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-young-and-the-restless/201108/disclose-yourself-how-intimate-disclosure-fosters-attraction

So if you're worried about this I'd say to take it slow. Say you're not quite ready to go that fast, and continue the relationship if he agrees with you setting the tone. If he pushes the boundaries in ways that make you uncomfortable, say so (men are not mind-readers). If he continues to push and not self-disclose his emotions, you have your answer right there.

Note there is a school of thought that says that if you get too emotionally self-disclosing too fast you may lose sexual desire (the whole "Friend-Zone" thing). So if you're interested, don't leave him hanging too long, either.

Menz,

Say you've been dating someone for several months. The relationship has been defined as 'casual', but you are sleeping together exclusively. Now, the two of you have decided to forego condoms, and she gets on the pill. What does this mean to you? That the relationship is moving beyond casual, or that you simply get to enjoy being condom-free now? Because we all know you enjoy that...

Thanks guys

Very helpful responses

I think if you're casual, exclusive and you're on the pill, it's just that - you're on the pill and you're exclusive, but still casual. It's more time efficient, comfortable, etc than using condoms. I don't think too many men would attach an emotional component to it, we're practical, so we will just look at it as time management. And yes, we'll love the idea of "we get to be condom-free. Wee!"

I just wrote about emotional self-disclosure. I'd put more emphasis on that kind of behavior/talk to determine casual/serious than in the sex logistics, particularly since it started casual. Maybe start talking about deeper stuff, start dropping emotional hints of you wanting it to move to more serious, etc.

Above all, with guys, don't assume that because you do an understated gesture we are going to attach the same (or indeed any) particular emotional meaning unless you tell us why you did the gesture. This is particularly true on women-specific choices. Note how your head went to "moving beyond casual" because you started on the pill, but the reality is that many women use the pill for a million different reasons (even for hormonal and period-regulation, right?), and most men are not versed on these topics at all unless they grew up very close to women - sisters, wives, daughters (I myself only know because I was married for 17y). Gynecologic choices are a very woman-specific behavior and I can almost guarantee he doesn't know there's a reason that is related to him and your relationship together. Just not in his radar.

We're not mind-readers and are usually distracted and one-track-minded. We need to be told explicitly.

Say you've been dating someone for several months. The relationship has been defined as 'casual', but you are sleeping together exclusively. Now, the two of you have decided to forego condoms, and she gets on the pill. What does this mean to you? That the relationship is moving beyond casual, or that you simply get to enjoy being condom-free now? Because we all know you enjoy that...

My advice is not to guess by reading the situation. I'm gonna generalize here and say men often need a clear, straightforward explanation of what women think is happening.

These not so subtle signs are often lost on us, I'm afraid.

Thanks, guys.

I'd put more emphasis on that kind of behavior/talk to determine casual/serious than in the sex logistics, particularly since it started casual. Maybe start talking about deeper stuff..

There is and always has been a lot of deep conversation and emotional self-disclosure. There really hasn't been a point where this relationship ever felt 'casual' to me, even though he's chosen to define it as such. It's confusing.

My H told me that he started shaving his pubic hair because he never liked hair. Um.. as we have been together for 18 years and this is the FIRST I"ve heard of it... I would like to have some input from you guys... as I really don't think he is being honest about this. I should put a caveat that um.. he didn't tell me.. and had become quite modest in the shower lately...

Does it make giving him oral better? I started buzzing it (didn't like to shave) recently and didn't discuss with WW. But I also started working out and it helps me see how close I am to a six pack, etc. Plus it makes my member look bigger to me, which helps my self-esteem. I know it shouldn't, but I need all the moral support I can get.

How does a woman know if a man wants to have sex to 'fuck' or to 'make love'? Is there any sign of him just needg a physical release as opposed to wanting to be close emotionally?

For me, it's the sense of urgency and intensity. It's hard to slow down once the intensity is there. I generally don't do good with signals. Tell me three hours in advance what you want, and you got it.

Say you've been dating someone for several months. The relationship has been defined as 'casual', but you are sleeping together exclusively. Now, the two of you have decided to forego condoms, and she gets on the pill. What does this mean to you? That the relationship is moving beyond casual, or that you simply get to enjoy being condom-free now?

Option B.

If it means the difference between a flaccid or hard dick, do you still have a problem with faking, menz? Or, would you prefer to take a pill?

I would prefer not to be lied to, regardless. There have got to be other ways to inspire an erection, and to my knowledge faking an O usually occurs after one it in place.

What do you consider "vanilla sex"?

Vanilla sex is what my WW said we were having while Fing AP. To me, it means insufficient, boring, mundane. It also means traitor.

What does your partner do that makes you feel loved? Sex, hugs, saying they love you? Doing things with you that you enjoy?

All of the above. I like attention, thoughtful gifts, random BJs, and great dinners. This is a great 5 love language quiz thing.

If watching porn hurt your wife..would you stop?

Probably not. Watching porn is a masturbation tool. I'm taking it that you feel hurt by it the same way a man would feel hurt if he found you using a 2 foot giant dildo?

There is and always has been a lot of deep conversation and emotional self-disclosure. There really hasn't been a point where this relationship ever felt 'casual' to me, even though he's chosen to define it as such.

That's because what bonds men and what bonds women is different. Men bond by doing things together, not by talking about shit.

Hope this helps.

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 3:27 PM, January 27th (Tuesday)]

BW here. I have been missing intimacy and feeling broken that WH seemed more friends with the OWs than with me. They joked, laughed, texted (a lot, including sexting). Since the end of HB, we don't seem to have any of that. Our texting has become very business-like. I want him to be my friend! Why do you think he doesn't have that with me? He seems to think we are bonding, but we just watch TV with each other and that isn't an intimate act to me. Is it because men bond by doing things together? Am I expecting too much after 15 years of marriage?

IDK, my answer may be way out of date, but...

1) I assume every sexually active female who doesn't want to get pregnant protects herself against pregnancy. The condom mainly protects - hopefully - against STDs. (Of course, the last time I dated, very few unmarried women could even get state of the art contraception...a diaphragm; the pill was still very new.) If I were single, I'd use a condom, I expect, but 2 methods are better than one, especially where a baby is concerned.

2) Can a couple be sexually active and exclusive and casual? That doesn't compute for me. I'd expect someone who's exclusive would want something more than casual. (Of course, the last time I dated, very few women had casual sex....)

3) If you haven't come to an agreement about what your relationship is, or if you're unhappy with what your relationship seems to be, raise the issue directly, in no uncertain terms. (For 16 months, I thought W2b thought I was only a casual suitor, when in fact she was about as hooked on me as I was on her; we just expressed ourselves so differently, we didn't get it.)

BW here. I have been missing intimacy and feeling broken that WH seemed more friends with the OWs than with me. They joked, laughed, texted (a lot, including sexting). Since the end of HB, we don't seem to have any of that. Our texting has become very business-like. I want him to be my friend! Why do you think he doesn't have that with me? He seems to think we are bonding, but we just watch TV with each other and that isn't an intimate act to me. Is it because men bond by doing things together? Am I expecting too much after 15 years of marriage?

There could be a bunch of reasons. To me watching TV together is bonding. Also, there comes a point in a relationship where sometimes you don't talk about anything but logistics because you don't feel like you have anything new to share, like you already know everything about me... you know? It could also be guilt... he doesn't feel right about or fears joking because then you won't see him as taking your pain seriously, like a horrible catch 22.

IDK, I hope a WH can answer this better...

No real question here, as I don't think there's an answer for this. Just coming off a bad miscommunication with SO, about something that should have been a total non-issue. We were talking openly, we just weren't speaking the same language apparently. I guess that's just the way it is between men and women sometimes.

First relationship post D. Feeling sad, scared, and discouraged.

[This message edited by gypsybird87 at 2:25 PM, January 29th (Thursday)]

We were talking openly, we just weren't speaking the same language apparently

Very common. Here's a technique for preventing that in future.

First, talk about the different connotations people have for different words. Use this most recent wording thing as an example.

Then, when talking, repeat what you heard back to them _in_your_own_wording_ and ask for confirmation that that is what was meant. Ask, don't tell. Like this:

Conversant 1:

It bothered me that you said "he was a nice waiter."

Conversant 2:

I understand that you were slightly, but not very much, upset [your understanding of bothered]that I remarked that the waiter was efficient and friendly [your definition of nice]. Did I understand correctly?

Conversant 1:

No, by bothered I meant jealous and a little envious and a little angry because I though "nice" meant you thought he was hot.

Conversant 2:

Oh, no, dear. I never thought that about him. I did not even consider it, as a matter of fact. He was just good at his job and friendly in a professional way.

That sort of clarifying understanding questioning takes extra time but prevents fights. Another, slightly different, technique is to ask for their definition of descriptive words that they use but sometimes it is really, really hard to spot all of those and just repeating the whole idea that you got is easier.

Hope this helps someone out there avoid an argument.

Playing catch up again.

Imissmyhusb:

I think how we want thankfulness to be expressed is highly dependent on the person. We each have different ways we prefer to be acknowledged. For example "The 5 Love Languages" book shows in a simple way how each of us prefer to experience love differently. This applies to many things. We need to spend time learning about our partner and that's not always easy!

Vanilla sex isn't a term I use, but always the same or just a quickie that's nothing special is what I would consider vanilla sex.

shiftingsand:

He may like how it feels without hair and it's possible he doesn't like hair and just got up the nerve to do something about it, but with that being said I find that a bit suspect. I tried it once to spice things up, but STBXWW never noticed until I told her. Not much spice in that!

gypsybird87:

If I'm seeing someone enough to call them my GF then I will call them regularly, every couple days minimum and if I can't then they will know why (e.g. hiking in the back country).

BtraydWife:

Faking to me is wrong because it is deceptive. Why are we having sex if you have to fake it? Now I am cool if you don't want an orgasm and you want to take care of my needs, but to me faking is the same as lying and that leads to problems.

SisterMilkshake:

Faking it has nothing to do with me keeping it hard. I understand your case may be different, but thankfully not all of us working on the second half of our century have an issue (yet). I will also say I found your first post defensive and out of character to the rest of the post in this thread. I understand the feelings came from a different thread, but most of us may not be reading that thread.

DragnHeart:

We are each different. See my "Love Languages" reference above. For me touch is most important and that's not just sex. Holding hands and caressing are magical when shared with someone I am connected to.

It's very hard to reconnect physically after being betrayed. It took me a while before I would even try and we had some success, but then she said a few things and I never touched her in a physical way again.

confused615:

I'm sure it depends on the person. For some people there are things that just can't be faked and some of us are fairly observant.

AutumnGlow:

I don't watch porn so can't answer.

confused615:

See above, but in general I would certainly stop doing something that was hurting my wife.

Imissmyhusb:

A reminder would be done once or maybe twice if I have likely forgotten (not very likely), a nag is reminding me when I have been too busy with other things to get to it and tone/presentation are often a big part of it.

deena04:

Not sure why, but an orgasm is one of the best, no side effect sleeping aids for me as well. Depending on the time of day that may not always be true, but if I'm tired it's lights out.

ShiningAutumn8:

Personally seems a bit odd to me though I will say I do a better job than my wife with shirts and things that need ironing.

deena04:

It's not the pants , but seriously that is a no win answer for a husband. Better to ask a girlfriend. We know anything we say will come back to haunt us at a later date.

Imissmyhusb:

I can't remember the last time I had sex just for physical pleasure/desire only. Taking care of myself is a physical need, but I don't personally see that as sex. To me sex always has a connection component which is why I struggled with it after her affair. It's hard to build connection again with no remorse.

gypsybird87:

I do not have sex in a casual relationship so can't answer your question.

Communication is hard because we each have our own internal frame of reference. Understanding that and finding techniques to deal with that difference are important. Mirroring is the common technique.

ncharge:

Men do bond differently. We want you to be with us. but we don't have to talk about deep emotional things all the time to bond. With that said, it does sound like you WH has a few things to work on. He broke your heart and needs to step things up and find ways to make you feel connected not just do what is enough for him.

Me has a question (hand raised).

A few years ago, I had an idea I would move on, find love and live happily ever after. Well, my male coworker who is skirting 60, told me no man would want someone in thekr 40's who has toddlers.

I now am knocking on 48 with a 7 and 9 yr old. Speaking on behalf of yourself and your Menz frenz, is this true

Disclaimer: just wo I dont get into trouble, I am quite aware that this oart of my life is over. I am just wanting to know if some other woman were in the same possition as I (mid to late 40's and an older mom to younger kids), would it be frutile to even hope for another relationship.

As for the fake the orgasm thing back on pg 45 or 46...if you are expected to come (and do so in the 1st minute) you do it just to save being called not a woman. No keggle action required.

Sully,

My opinion as a BH in my early 40's:

Humans need companionship. I wish my wife wanted to be my lifelong partner and companion. We are stuck in limbo, and I have no close companionship with anyone, and I miss that more than anything. She and I have sex, and the physical part is good, but I still feel alone. It is hard for me to connect with an unremorseful cheater and drunk.

Sorry, I drifted. I would not have a problem with the kind of relationship you are talking about if it was understood by both parties that kids are involved and they must be the first consideration. It doesn't mean you can't have companionship or a relationship. You may have to be patient, and choose wisely.

My daughter asked me if I would date again if her mother and I divorced. My answer was that I didn't know what the future held, but my two daughters come first.

I've accepted that I may end up divorced and never have another relationship with a woman. Sad, but ok, and I'm happy raising my kids. Realistically, though, it would probably happen at some point in the future, and you will most likely find another relationship too.

Good luck!

Sully, this is a hard one. Honestly toddlers can be really hard so it depends a bit on the children, but I would imagine after a divorce and then introducing a new man into the family they could be doubly hard and again it really depends on the children.

The issue I see is that while trying to start a new relationship the children could become so demanding that the new BF/husband may feel he is in a child centric relationship (because he likely is) and that often causes problems. If he understands that in the beginning it may be okay, but over time it can (often does) cause relationship problems. Depending on the children, you and the new BF/husband it could work out just fine. I personally would be very cautious of this situation and would proceed slowly though I would likely start down the path for the right woman in hopes we could find a reasonable balance.