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Thanks everyone. You are helping give me the strength and reassurance I need right now. We slept in separate rooms last night. I told her "Happy Birthday" when I saw her this morning, and she just scoffed at me. We didn't speak another word until she told me she was leaving for work. She told me: "All I have to say to you is don't make any rash decisions or do anything stupid." Then she left.

A bit more background for those suggesting that I see a lawyer: I did retain a lawyer about a month ago shortly after D-day #2 and had D papers drawn up. They were never filed because my wife (supposedly) agreed to my conditions for R. She knows about this and was pretty shocked when she found out. She knows I was at a point where I was ready to walk away, and I think she senses I'm heading back there. She has asked me several times over the past few weeks to avoid making rash decisions, to try time apart or another arrangement if I get to a point where R is not working. I do think I need to give her a bit of time to hopefully realize how fucked up her thinking is. I'm really not willing to wait more than a couple of days though. I'm not sure what a trial separation would do if I don't see her coming around at all.

It seems like the answer is staring me in the face, but I'm afraid of upsetting the apple cart as we try to repair our marriage.

What apple cart? The one full of bull$hit? Reparing what M? You cannot reconcile when your WW still has a boyfriend.

My H worked with the AP. For months I thought NC was in place - they worked in diff departments so had no reason whatsoever to communicate. None. Then I found an email trail that went back months. I confronted. He said "I'm just helping her. They (company) are treating her unfairly and she asked for my help.)" That moment in time, he had one choice and one choice only: Me or OW. He could not have both. He was soooo ticked that I had dared read his work email. Well, there should not have been anything for me to find.

So weather it is a cookie, iced tea, help... they often find *something* to stay engaged on some level. In life before A, this behavior might have been acceptable. After an A, everything changes. Behaviors that were once accepted are out of bounds now. That is a consequence of the WW choices.

I do like that you have started to stand up for yourself (not leaving, etc). And why are you even giving her a bday card? You need to 180 hard. She needs a wake up call. You cannot nice her back, but you sure as hell can push her off the cake-eating fence she is straddling.

I do think I need to give her a bit of time to hopefully realize how fucked up her thinking is. I'm really not willing to wait more than a couple of days though. I'm not sure what a trial separation would do if I don't see her coming around at all.

I disagree. She doesn't need anymore time. And a separation is something I have never seen the value in since it usually lets the WS lead a life they want at that time. No questions, and time to be with their AP.

It would seem to me she is the one worried now about you making rash decisions. I also think she knows damn good and well this is not about a fucking cookie. I think she knows damn good and well this is about much more than that. She is just too stubborn to admit it to you.

And people like that usually stubborn themselves right into a divorce.

Try to snoop today as much as possible. I dont know what access you have to her stuff, but if there was ever going to be a day she cries to the OM, or her own journal, today is the day.

What do you think she meant by making any rash decisions?

I bet 10-0 that she has a burn phone. She obviously is contacting him through business email, as she accused you of looking at it and you can't get access to it. She wants her cake and eat it too.

My husband was not ready to place blame on himself until after DDay#2. When I was obviously doing everything he asked me to do and he STILL was in the affair. I had to go to a divorce lawyer, have papers drawn up, and make the decision in my head that I was through taking blame for his selfishness. It was only then did he realize he was the one that was screwing it up and it made him SCARED. I *think* your wife may be heading to that same place...so now is not the time to waver. Stand tall and make arrangements to separate yourself from the nonsense.

Also, my personal opinion is...if she wants to leave because she is having a hissy fit over what she did...then leave. But leave the kids at home. Who does she think she is to take the kids out of their home because SHE screwed up?

And people like that usually stubborn themselves right into a divorce.

I can attest to this sentiment. My stbx could never wrap his head around the fact that, the moment I found it he was a serial-cheater, the rules changed.

She has asked me several times over the past few weeks to avoid making rash decisions, to try time apart or another arrangement if I get to a point where R is not working.

Stop listening to her. Seriously, just stop it. She is being a manipulative cake-eater. She thinks that you guys are in R. Really? Would you consider what you have now as "being in R"?

I do think I need to give her a bit of time to hopefully realize how fucked up her thinking is. I'm really not willing to wait more than a couple of days though. I'm not sure what a trial separation would do if I don't see her coming around at all.

Considering your WW's attitude, a trial separation is not even an option, imo. She is belittling and devaluing you with her "all *this* over a cookie" bullshit. She's mad at you and thinks you are being ridiculous. None of that is going to change within a couple of days -- and I'll bet that her attitude gets a lot worse when she realizes that her bullying you is not effectively cowing you.....so be prepared for her to change her tactics.

I would advise not bringing up the D word to her again until you are ready to pull the trigger. Also, don't engage with her in relationship talk or *explain* what is wrong about what she's doing. She's a grown-ass woman and if she doesn't know the difference between right and wrong by now -- you sure as heck aren't going to get her to understand it. If she spouts off about anything, pull the 'detached IC' demeanor on her -- lots of mmm hmmm's, interesting, how so? responses to her idiocy. And don't be afraid to just turn your back on her and leave the room -- even IF she's in mid-sentence.

WW wrote an email to her mother this morning. In it she said that she is doing everything I've asked of her, and it's not good enough for me. She mentioned the cookie thing and how I was pissed about it because I asked for no contact other than business-only communication. She doesn't seem to make the connection that she basically did exactly what I asked her not to do. It's just no big deal at all to her. She insists that she isn't friends with AP, and that they have very minimal communication.

She goes on to say that I feel a need to control her and her relationship with AP, and I'm "forcing" her to do everything my way. In the next sentence she implies that she has demonstrated to me that she doesn't want to see AP and doesn't want to be his friend, but I'm being unreasonable with my request for zero communication.

And here's the part that was most difficult to read: she says she's at her breaking point and she thinks it's time for her to move on.

I discovered that she has initiated non-business banter and interaction with him:

- She shared with him a personal fitness accomplishment that she's proud of.

- She told him she found a silly self-deprecating greeting card that would be appropriate for him to give to her.

- She brought him back his favorite kind of cookie when she went out for lunch one day.

- There was a silly exchange between them in which I believe she hinted at sexual innuendo, and his response indicated that he was biting his tongue because he knew better than to go there.

PBST:

These interactions are far too personal.

They need to stop.

She is still SEEKING ego kibbles from this man. She still enjoys tittilating him with sexual innuendo.

This is wrong. She lacks boundaries. Even worse, she is seeking him out, not the other way around.

My waywards OW is still stalking us, and still trying to rekindle with my wayward.

She also, based on emails and texts, aggressively sought out the affair and pushed for it to be sexual.

There is no reason for your wife to have this type of conversation.

Oh good lord. She's whacked. The fog is so dense that you could cut it with a knife.

She insists that she isn't friends with AP, and that they have very minimal communication.

In the next sentence she implies that she has demonstrated to me that she doesn't want to see AP and doesn't want to be his friend, but I'm being unreasonable with my request for zero communication.

I feel a need to control her and her relationship with AP

If the first two are true, WHAT EFFING RELATIONSHIP is she talking about.

You're plan B brother.

she says she's at her breaking point and she thinks it's time for her to move on.

If she's saying that to her Mother, I'm 98% sure that she's seen a lawyer.

"All I have to say to you is don't make any rash decisions or do anything stupid."

My guess would be so she has time to beat you to the punch.

Watch your ass.

Strength

ETA....Does her family know of the A? Sounds like she's setting you up to be the bad guy. If her Mom doesn't know of the A, your actions might be construed as controlling. Let them know!

[This message edited by 5454real at 11:03 AM, August 7th (Thursday)]

Since she doesn't seem to understand, lay it out in plain English for her:

You choose me & our M or you choose your *friend*

It really is as simple as that. So far, she has shown that she chooses her AP. Her email to her mom is her deflecting the attention off of her and onto you - you controlling ass!

She has told you what she wants. Listen to her. If/when she changes her tune, you can listen again. But for now, listen to what she is saying. She's done. Show her the door. She needs a reality check big time.

It is hard to know where to start with all of that stuff she said to her mother (who, if she has any sense at all, will tell her daughter exactly how wrong she is). But, I think it boils down to "her relationship with AP". There should be NO relationship with AP. If she can't see that, then she is not a remorseful WS and you really have no hope of R at this point. A remorseful spouse understands what they did and the hurt it caused and wants nothing more to do with their AP. Even minimal business contact would be uncomfortable. Your WW is not there, not even close. I am sorry.

I have not sensed any love for you from your wife in anything you've posted. Just that she doesn't want divorce, for appearances, for finances, for whatever.

What you are asking of her is not all that difficult. It's really only how a normal wife would treat her husband.

She has to frame this thing in the most palatable way possible for others close to her.

She may know that you are monitoring her emails so she may know that you are reading what she writes to her mother. In other words, she may be writing it for effect rather than truly meaning it.

My observation is that many adults act not much different than children. When I say no to my children, they may come back with buttering me up and I love you dad, then if it's still no they might give me but it's only a cookie it's no big deal, then if it's still no they may say but all the other kids are doing it, then if it's still no they may come up with I hate you dad. I just laugh and say wow, you went from loving me to hating me in less than five minutes over a cookie.

I have seen the same tact taken by adults many times. Go to any store by the returns desk and watch and you'll see people start out trying to nice their way, then reason their way, then get nasty, all within a couple of minutes, basically switching tactics to get what they want.

I think that is part of what your wife is doing. I also think that she doesn't care as much about being married as you do, she has a certain amount she is willing to put up with, quitting the job and giving up flirtations with other man are beyond what she is willing to put up with. It seems that you are willing to put up with it.

I sense a real fear in you about her deciding it's over. If you want to cave in and tell her you're sorry about the cookie and sweep some of this under the rug, if that's what you think is better for you, don't let me or anyone else convince you otherwise. Living that way is not for me, but I don't have to live with your decisions. You are the one who has to live with your decisions. You can always choose to back off and fight this battle another day if you are not ready for it yet.

Give her her walking papers. She has no respect for you.

She will only cause you more pain.

There is really nothing more for you to think about. She is playing her mom so you are the bad guy. Just in case you toss her out.

Honestly if your MIL does not know what's up then you should not give a shit what she thinks.

Let her go dude.

Dude, in what world is bringing her AP a cookie NOT egregious???

Right. After all this...

If she's willing to give him a cookie, she's probably willing to give him THE cookie.

She's delusional. Get to a lawyer ASAPual.

WW has different interpretation of NC than I do and need advice.

I haven't been following your story PB. Just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're going through this nightmare. Just want to comment straight from your title, though.

Her "interpretation" loses. You're the aggrieved party, and your interpretation should win 10 out of 10 times because her focus should be on your security and healing. If she doesn't like it and can't abide by it, then tough shit. She shouldn't have blown up the marriage. And if she refuses to get with your program, then the truth is you've lost her anyway. There really is nothing to lose at this point from setting firm boundaries and rules for R. I mean, what do you have to lose - a cheating wife?

It's time for her to decide if she wants to be a married lady or a single girl. And it's time for you to put on your ass-kickin' boots and defend your own dignity as a married man.

And let the AP know in no uncertain terms that the A with this married woman is OVER. Expose him to his wife, if applicable. Complain about him to management. Maybe they both get fired, maybe you'll end up in bankruptcy court after she loses her job. But you know what? There are worse things in life. Like what you're going through right now.

Best of luck bro. Hang in there.

PB, I'm so sorry.

Here's the irony. She leaves for work issuing you are moritorium on "acting rash" when in reality, she's telling her MOTHER she's almost done. That makes no sense at all. Is she just ensuring she is the one that gets to file in order to save face?

She's really, really, really foggy. And it's likely because she's still IN the affair. (der, right?)

Look, I think you are doing good now. Stay strong. Don't cave. I bet you want to cave so badly. But don't. Stay firm. Otherwise, you will be right back in this same place in another month or week.

TELL the other BS about this communication. It may be your last shot to drag her out of the affair.

But, that said, I'd also consider going dark on her. Either a cold, hard 180 or totally disappear for about 5 days. Let her see what life is like w/out you.

Lawyer up

Filing first gives you some advantages. Many courts will issue ex parte orders for custody and support on filing. It's up to the opponent to object or live with them or seek modification.

She'll do it to you, so act first.

Make an outline of issues when you see the lawyer. Custody, visitation, support. Assets and debts. Can you withdraw 1/2 of money to prevent her from taking it all out and freezing you out until the court decides the issue which could be weeks down the road. Living arrangements. Pensions and insurance. Asset division. Role of fault, if any, in your state. What to do with house if there is one down the road.

Get away from joint credit cards, too. You don't want to be financing any part of a fling in Vegas for example.

Lawyer isn't MC. But may have referral to . If you wish.

This is not the time to be weak or tearful or apologetic. She refuses to get it and your life is hell because of that.

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 11:36 AM, August 7th (Thursday)]

Personally, although the cookie would upset me, it wouldn't upset me anywhere near as much as suggesting a card for om to send to her. That's contact which invites more contact, and I have a very hard time seeing any possible reason for that other than that she wants more contact with him.

PBST2, I think you need to rethink your position radically.

First, you need to forget the 'risk your M to save it' crap. Your W risked your M, lost, and your M is dead. You no longer have an M to risk. It's over. (I've forgotten who told me that, but it was someone here. He really pissed me off - until I realized he was right, and I had a W who was remorseful immediately.)

Second, you need to withdraw your commitment to R. You need to give yourself permission to withhold any commitment to R until your W shows she's more committed to R than you are. Don't commit yourself until she proves she's committed.

Third, you need to give yourself permission to make your choice freely. Your W broke your M up. You can D, you can R, you can sit tight and hold your breath until you turn blue. What you can't do - unless you want to stifle yourself - is look for evidence to justify your positions. Don't argue with your W. If you don't believe her, tell her so, and tell her it's her job to be truthful & believable.

Fourth, respectfully, I disagree a bit with my brother who recommend immediately doing a 180. I think you should go over your requirements with your W again. Then tell her you'll talk only about finances and kids and stuff relating to meeting the requirements from now on, until you see she's committed to R.

That is, unless you choose to D now - then a full 180, with no explanation, is a good choice for you.

Finding and using your own strength in your own best interests is the best thing you can do now - it's best for you, best for your kids, and even best for your W.

Write these things out and give them to your wife. If she cannot get it by now, then you need to blow it all up once and for all.

It's just no big deal at all to her. She insists that she isn't friends with AP, and that they have very minimal communication.

Bringing him a cookie she knows he likes IS an act of friendship. Sending him a card IS without question communicating way behind business related circumstances.

She goes on to say that I feel a need to control her and her relationship with AP

And that comes as a surprise to your wife. Are your supposed to stand by while she continues a friendly relationship with this asshole.

And BTW, what relationship with the OM is she talking about. This is much more than a business relationship.

Go on to explain to her how this OMs wife must feel. Doesn't she have any feelings for what she has done with a married man.

Somehow you need to get it through to her that she is acting like a spoiled brat and has no feelings, considerations or empathy for anyone except her selfish self.

And remind her again, SHE is the one that said only business communications. And damn it, bringing him cookies is not business and neither is sending him cards.

Write this out if you want in your words and give it to her. Seeing written words is better than you telling her.

Because in her selfish fog, your words go in one ear and out the other.

So weather it is a cookie, iced tea, help... they often find *something* to stay engaged on some level.

Yes. When affair partners are in their fog they will find any tiny excuse to stay friends.

They can NOT be friends, EVER. But WORSE, your wife's behavior sounds like she wants more than friends, IMO.

They sound like emails the OW sent to my wayward husband, after DDAY, in which she was using sexual innuendo and flirting and trying to tempt him to rekindle.

Also, she kept showing up where ever he would go for coffee on a regular basis, and she would contact me to tell me what he said to her, in an attempt to start arguments, etc.

Then she began driving past our house daily sometimes two or three times.

Then she made friends with people I knew and began asking questions about me and the state of my marriage.

But, my wayward was also still in the fog a bit because when we went to an attorney about the stalking issue, he said to my wayward, once you run into her at a particular coffee shop, why do you keep going back?

My wayward looked startled when asked that question.

Then the lawyer said sternly, change things up immediately, if you see her, and if you see her before you go into the coffee shop, don't go in.

He did start doing that but he was in profound denial that his behavior was encouraging the OW. And, he likely wanted to encourage her.

It seems as if your wife is in denial, too, about her attempts to flirt and encourage contact.

In life before A, this behavior might have been acceptable. After an A, everything changes. Behaviors that were once accepted are out of bounds now. That is a consequence of the WW choices.

Yes, in life before the A, all the things you mentioned that she did could be innocent attempts to get ego kibbles, except for the sexual innuendo...., that's always a blatant invitation to an affair

But post affair, the ego kibbles have to stop.

It sounds as if your wife is still courting this man.

PBST:

I see you are getting a lot of two by fours, but sometimes that is what a faithful spouse needs.

But when your wife claims she is at her breaking point because you are angry that she is still flirting, giving cookies to, and asking for cards from the OM, she is BLAMESHIFTING.

She wants you to be responsible for the divorce because you are unreasonable, in her warped thinking.

She obviously can't see that her behaviors ARE unreasonable and sleazy and disrespectful to any other observer.

She has told you what she wants. Listen to her. If/when she changes her tune, you can listen again. But for now, listen to what she is saying. She's done. Show her the door. She needs a reality check big time.

Yes. She has cruelly told you she can't take it anymore, even though SHE caused the problems.

My husband never said he wanted out of the marriage. But he did continue friendly contact with OW. His behavior, however, was not flirtatious like your wife's.

However, complete NC was a condition of R for me. No friendship, no conversation....period.

My wayward, however, did not comply until, I put his clothing on the porch in garbage bags, changed the locks, and filed for divorce.

You can file and withdraw the petition, once she starts behaving like a REAL wife.

If she doesn't start acting like a real life and continues dating her OM, then what have you lost?