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I don't think she has had time to see a lawyer, and I don't think she's at that point yet despite what she said to her mother. I do think she will realize she is being unreasonable and soften a bit. How much, and will it be enough, remains to be seen. I don't have very much confidence, but if she comes around on committing to look for another job, I will hold off on filing. I realize it shouldn't be this much of a struggle and I would probably be just prolonging the inevitable, but I feel I need to give it a chance. This is the way she has always been--she runs away from difficult situations, but eventually comes back to face them. I need to see how she faces this.

To clarify a bit about the greeting card, I don't think she was suggesting that he actually get her a birthday card. She was telling him that she saw a card that was appropriate for herself, if hypothetically speaking, he were to get her one. But I still agree it is wholly inappropriate, because it obviously references something that he knows about her from the time they spent together. It would be appropriate for her to tell that to her close girlfriend, her mother, etc. But not him. Not after I specifically asked and she agreed to no contact.

File, you can delay later if need be. Or stop the D altogether. Let her know you are serious. It sounds to me that you are being gas-lighted. Is that "it is no big deal" ringing in your head? Your WS does not get it, and thinks you are over-reacting because she cheated on you? My opinion, file for D and start the 180.

To clarify a bit about the greeting card, I don't think she was suggesting that he actually get her a birthday card. She was telling him that she saw a card that was appropriate for herself, if hypothetically speaking, he were to get her one. But I still agree it is wholly inappropriate, because it obviously references something that he knows about her from the time they spent together.

hint hint boyfriend, get me something for my birthday.

If your wife doesn't see anything wrong in that, then she is completely still in the affair thinking mode. Without question that is beyond wrong. And a punch in your gut!

Referencing something that the OM knows about concerning their time together. It doesn't get anymore wrong than that. She is nowhere close to R. She is still in the affair.

If it were me. She would not be going to work there ever again.

You have access to her electronics etc...but you have no control over what the hell they talk about at work. And that is wrong.

Considering this is her birthday, have you seen any evidence of what they have said together.

What does her mother say about her affair and about these recent actions.

I have learned during the aftermath of WW's A that her mother is a cheater as well. My step-FIL is still with her despite her carrying on a 2+ year EA & PA, which went on well after he found out about it. For the life of me I cannot figure out why the hell he is still with her. On top of that, he didn't tell another soul while he was dealing with everything. I think he was just able to emotionally detach from her and not give a shit. Her AP now lives out-of-state.

Anyhow, you can see where I am getting conflicting advice. My MIL probably thinks: "we got over it. you should do the same". My step-FIL knows my pain, but his interest is keeping the marriage together because he knows that's what's best for WW. He constantly advises me against taking drastic measures. I think he really does try to push WW in the right direction, but he has to walk a fine line because she does not react kindly to it.

[This message edited by PBST2 at 3:39 PM, August 7th (Thursday)]

That is another excuse. You are using her family to help her justify her actions. You feel any better knowing she is keeping her affair alive just because her mother did it.

As Craig just said, there is nothing about hat she is doing that is ok.

The ax needs to fall on her now

Your wife is going to reach out to anyone and everyone that will agree with her thinking and actions. She wants contact with the OM. And anyone who tells her she is doing everything wrong, she will ignore and call names and dismiss.

The worst thing about your situation is that your wife does not see the OM as someone who just used her. She doesnt look at him with disgust.

Your wife on the other hand wants to talk to him and be near him. She is most certainly still in the affair, EA. And actually, if it were possible, I think it would turn PA again.

That is how wrong her thinking is.

She can't see what she did wrong in the first place and she cannot see what she is doing wrong now.

I wonder how your wife would feel coming face to face with that guys wife.

Has your wife ever met that woman? Has she ever shown up at work?

[This message edited by craig2001 at 4:08 PM, August 7th (Thursday)]

If your W mentioned a card that she thought would be appropriate for you to send, how would you respond?

When she mentioned it to her ap, it was a come on and nothing else.

Out of the fog and into the light, bro.

Also, you need to distinguish yourself from your FIL.

Have you looked into co-dependency? You may be co-d yourself. You owe yourself something better.

(((PBST2)))

Referencing something that the OM knows about concerning their time together. It doesn't get anymore wrong than that. She is nowhere close to R. She is still in the affair.

After reading your other posts PBST, I agree with the above.

IMO, the affair is still going on, and she is gaslighting you.

Also, given that the mother had an affair, you might want to read research that suggests that cheating may be genetic. Google it.

Her mother is likely giving her the green light to cheat, since her husband knew she was still cheating and stayed married to her.

Out of the fog and into the light, bro.

Also, you need to distinguish yourself from your FIL.

I also agree with, Sisoon. The betrayed spouses can also be in a fog. A fog of denial.

There is no way to condone her suggestion of a card she might like to the OM.

What would be the point other than to expect him to get her a card for her birthday?

Please do not minimize this behavior.

Mine still works with the OW one year after DD. My investigations (VARS and everything) showed it was an EA, but it's more than enough to ask him to leave this job. He convinced me it would be OK, that devoured my soul and now I feel nothing for him. I really don't know if I'm in R anymore...

Don't waste precious time. Place an ultimatum before it's too late.

PS. Do you have kids? I noticed your age and I kind of felt envious... Never mind, I will keep my mouth shut.

PS. Do you have kids? I noticed your age and I kind of felt envious... Never mind, I will keep my mouth shut.

Yes. We have 2 boys, ages 3 and 5. Envious how?

To update the thread, I am in a sort of holding pattern. WW and I talked a lot on Thursday evening, and she still doesn't get where I'm coming from. She did admit the cookie thing was wrong, and she told me she agrees that she can't be friends with OM. But apparently her definition of friends is different than mine. She wants to be able to small talk and joke about work with him and sees nothing wrong with it. I told her I couldn't accept that, and we need to talk about D. After some more discussion, she agreed to start looking for a new job and to keep it business-only with OM for the time being. I agreed to hold off any life-changing decisions for a few months. I'm really not happy with where things stand, but I'm willing to give it a bit more time to see how she proceeds from here. I plan to detach as much as possible to protect myself during this period, but will still allow myself to enjoy close moments together when they present themselves.

She wants to be able to small talk and joke about work with him and sees nothing wrong with it. I told her I couldn't accept that,

^^^Sorry, your wife is still actively in the EA. She still does not get it. She is placing her "friendship" with OM above you and your marriage.

I'd insist she quit her job like yesterday. She is not showing any signs of remorse, she is playing a little game with your life, and I don't believe for a second that she will stay the away from OM.

IMO, you need to strap on your male beatch boots and not tolerate her BS any longer. A cookie, a birthday card, conversations? Um, no.

Sorry, PBST2, your wife is gaslighting you big time. :(

On a side note, your wife is a cheater, she needs to keep ALL contact with ANY male co-worker strictly professional.

My SLAWH was clueless or foggy or emotionally stupid/stunted or . . . After he confessed his A, he went NC with his AP for several months. Then, when their collaborative (but separate) jobs mandated a joint work trip together, he decided they could drop NC. After all, she was his "friend" and she made him laugh. On a road trip home for a family wedding, I noticed all his texting while it was my turn to drive. When we got home and while he was sleeping, I checked his phone and saw his comments about how he missed her laughter, how fast I was driving, how he'd tried to call her from a bathroom en route, etc. I took photos.

The next evening, I confronted. Let me say that I am well-educated, well-spoken, and well-behaved woman. So when I was pacing the floor and pretty much frothing at the mouth, I think the lights came on for him. I told him, in that convo, three things: that there was no room in our M for 3, that I DETESTED her, and that there was no such thing as friendship with someone who'd once been his "derogatory, foul word for a mistress." (Realized I was in a forum that doesn't allow such words.) He was startled and his eyes were opened by my cray-cray, over-the-top (for me) reaction.

That break through was the beginning of R for us. Until he saw his relationship with her through my eyes, he rugswept himself. His wayward mindset is complicated by his multiple issues/addictions, but his recovery since then, albeit slow, has been sweet.

Your WW must "get" what she's doing is wrong. Until that happens, there's no going forward. She chooses you or him. Simple.

[This message edited by RippedSoul at 9:59 AM, August 10th (Sunday)]

It's time you put a VAR in her car and search the car for a "burner" phone. I would also put a GPS on the car.

I will bet that you will hear conversations in the car between them. If possible, you also might want to go where she works and watch her come out at night. bet he is with her then also.

You just gave her three more months "free' time. All you did was make her know to be more careful.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED. She is still in the affair but her own words when she says she does not get that not being friends is OK.

You are hoping against hope for a change. it aint going to happen. She cares more about him than your happiness and marriage but you just refuse to accept it.

I hope you read thread and profile of MHCA. This is where you are headed.

Sorry for the 2 X 4. If you had accomplished anything but scolding her it might be different.

No one posting has believed she is not still in the affair. You are allowing it to continue.

Hey there, glad to see you're doing okay under the circumstances.

She wants to be able to small talk and joke about work with him and sees nothing wrong with it.

Here is the deal, your wife does not get to dictate the terms in any way shape or form. Period.

You need to dictate the terms and stick to them as best as you can. You cannot control her life, if she continues the affair after she quits her job, well there are not a lot of options left. You will then know where things stand.

As for what she is now saying, she admits the cookie thing was wrong. After all her complaining and yelling and leaving, she now admits it was wrong.

Sounds to me like she is appeasing you so she can continue.

She now agrees she cannot be friends with the OM, it just sounds like she is saying things to you, to get you to back off. I was always suspicious when after so much whining, complaining and telling me how wrong I was...and then all of a sudden my fWW started seeing things my way.

It was like she felt better about some new plan to see the OM.

She now says she will keep it strictly business...she has already said that and tried to go behind your back with that. And you found out.

You will most likely have to step up the snooping. Or tomorrow morning she no longer has a job and does not go to work.

She says she is going to start looking for a new job. There are a lot of jobs listed on CraigsList and indeed.com and monster.com etc.

Depending on the line of work she is in, she should find another job.

Did she ever find out how you knew about the cookie thing and the card?

Did she read that book Not Just Friends...I think it is that book that really goes into boundaries and points out ALL of the wrong things your wife is still doing. Not Just Friends, the title itself states what you are telling your wife she is doing wrong.

This...

that it's just a "cordial" relationship between coworkers.

...is why you need to see a lawyer ASAP.

Even if your WW gets a new job she is still broken. A new job won't fix that. Why?

Because she refers to him as a freakin' coworker. No, you nutcase. That is your ex-affair partner.

Your WW is spilling her guts to her mom, the one person you both know has had an A and rationalized it. Your WW has been partially conditioned to think an A can be rugswept based on how her parents did (NOT) handle it.

You need to remind her..."WW, you did not marry a carbon copy of your dad. I'm not ok with this. Never was. Never will be. I am willing to work on rebuilding our relationship, but if you think I'll draw one more breath in a M where you disrespect me by talking to the OM you had sex with when you don't have to??? You really have a lot to learn."

Of course the reference to her dad might give away where you get your information but you see my point.

...your wife does not get to dictate the terms in any way shape or form.

I think this needs to be modified.

If you decide to R, you and your W will need to agree on terms, conditions, requirements, consequences. If you don't create something you both sign on to whole-heartedly, it won't work - no agreement, no R.

SIers' experience is that R won't work unless certain things are in place, like:

WS ownership of what she's done

NC - although some Rs have worked with business-only contact

Answering all questions

Honesty

Transparency

WS commitment to change from cheater to good partner (implies IC, IMO)

These requirements don't add up to the WS not having a choice. Rather, the WS - either party, really - can choose to meet the reqs and work on R or to not me the reqs and D or limbo.

Both parties always have choices, though, and WSes can have requirements of their own. I had some minor reqs that my W balked at. Turns out she was right - they weren't truly requirements. She couldn't do them, and they weren't really important to me.

My W also wanted me to make some changes. They're still works in progress - I haven't delivered.

R has to serve both parties. That means agreement on terms & conditions.

You need to remind her..."WW, you did not marry a carbon copy of your dad.

That would hit home.

And sometimes it takes hurtful comments to get the WS out of their fog.

One thing that really hit home for me, when I was trying to dismiss things as "no big deal," was when he asked me, if they were no big deal...then why was I fighting so hard for them? If they were no big deal, and my marriage was a big deal, shouldn't the choice be clear?

Then, it was.