SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The involvement of your daughters in this mess is not unusual. Young adult children often suffer as the middle men in their parents' conflict. They instinctively realize that if you divorce, they will have to pick up the pieces, so they are working to patch things up.

Tell your wife that you wish to resolve your problems without turning your children into co dependents anymore than they have already been.

Ask your wife if she would find it easier for your daughters to read the emails than you?

Remember that from a selfish gene point of view your daughters have nothing to gain from you and their mother splitting. You might remarry and disinherit them in favor of younger half siblings. And at the very least divorce will make your family poorer. Money that could have gone to grandchildren will go to two separate households.

Your daughter said that mom made a mistake. But as everybody knows women don't inadvertently fall on penises anymore than men accidentally insert them.

Three counseling sessions is a good thing. What do you plan to talk about?

One topic might be the damage caused by trickle truth and gas lighting.

If you had caused deep economic harm to your family, say for example, due to gambling addiction, would your wife like to learn that you had lost $9,000, only to later discover the real extent of the losses was your house?

[This message edited by LongWalk at 6:21 AM, April 26th (Sunday)]

DoneGone, perhaps your daughters need to read "Not Just Friends" to truly undestand what you are going through before they feel a need to have any further input on the matter. Even more so, it would enlighten them to the real impact that infidelity has on the betrayed despite how popular culture and your WW tries to minimize it. In fact, if they read that book they will realize that what your WW, thier mother, is only admitting to them right now clearly already shows she was on that path of infidelity. They will know she is now just minimizing for her own selfish reasons.

Did you get the passwords? No

Liklihood that all the original emails are still there. Very low

All this song and dance is besides the point. A man has been manipulated and guilt tripped into this position. This is not R. The daughters do not have the full facts on board, only what their mother has told them.

End of the day, if a man cannot be respected for the decisions he makes, there is no respect. And no R

Not for nothing, but I hope you see the mountain of shit your WW has created just to get you to back the fuck off. This woman will do anything to avoid the inevitable and if you think your ever going to get what you have for your sadly mistaken. Her behaviors after the fact are worse then the A IMHO. She would rather burn down her house then sweep her floor. That to me speaks volumes.

I get the anger. I am an easy going person (ok, a little high string, maybe neurotic, but that's my own shit) I am small in stature, get along with almost anyone. But, PUSH ME too hard (again, I have a long threshold) and I can get fired up. People who know me are shocked when they see the anger from me. I do have a governor on my actions even when I am rageful and probably so do you. So, this claim that they are worried about you is a little dramatic.

Now, to my question:

I think I've read all your posts, but maybe I am missing something.

Are you DONE either way?

In other words, are you basing any decision (divorce or reconciliation) on what you find in the texts/computer?

Because, if you are divorcing in any case, I say just imagine the worst possible findings in her correspondences (which I am sure you probably have), and go with that. Tell her you will see her in court.

Maybe you feel that you need the evidence to make your case to loved ones. You have allowed your wife to bully you into becoming the bully in their eyes. she owns this situation. She pushed you until you took action. Her infidelity created this whole mess.

You will have to nurture your relationship with your girls in any case going forward. They really are the only three that matter.

Do you need the stuff to make your case in divorce? Do not give the phone and computer back unless a divorce judge compels you to. Or, try to get the judge to compel her to open them.

If you are done in any case, and the "evidence" does not benefit you in divorce, then just walk away.

he only thing she has requested from me is the return of her computer and cell phone. I repossessed these from her a couple days after D-day and have no intention of returning them to her; not ever. I told her she used these as weapons to stab me in my back and also as instruments enabling her affair. They will be forever connected to her infidelity.

I have been trying to break her password over the weekend but with no success.

What will you do if those emails are already deleted? She has had ample time to do it. Also its possible to have a cell phone wiped remotely by the carrier if the phone is reported lost or stolen. There are apps that can be downloaded that can also remote wipe a phone as well.

Reality blows very well said

Topic for first counseling session:

Her manipulation to involve your daughters and that she's now opened them up to gratuitous amounts of pain once everything comes out.

First she cheats on you. Then she alienates your daughters from you by involving them in this mess where you'd rather protect them from the facts as they are revealed. How is she going to put that back to the loving close relationship with them you once enjoyed? Regardless of the marriage - these are YOUR daughters too.

She needs a counselor to tell her to stop doing irreparable damage to people she professes to love. Because right now - you're not seeing she loves anybody but will, in fact go to any length and every possible sleazy low to see that she avoids consequences for her choices.

It was a scumbag move for her to involve your daughters in this. I think it reasonable, since she brought them in, that they should get copies of everything you find on the phone and laptop.

Speaking of the phone and laptop, if it has one remove the sim from the phone. When you fire up the laptop and phone make sure the wifi is off so there's no way they can go online. If there's remote wiping to be done they have to be online to do it, so don't let them go online. Also, emails that have been deleted on the account will still be available on the computer and phone as long as they've never had a chance to connect to the internet.

Topic for first counseling session:

Her manipulation to involve your daughters and that she's now opened them up to gratuitous amounts of pain once everything comes out.

First she cheats on you. Then she alienates your daughters from you by involving them in this mess where you'd rather protect them from the facts as they are revealed. How is she going to put that back to the loving close relationship with them you once enjoyed? Regardless of the marriage - these are YOUR daughters too.

This --

I was also wondering if you have a deal breaker. If you find out that they have been sleeping together regularly even though she says it's just flirty talk... will the lies be a deal breaker?

Sounds like she wants counseling to reveal and counseling to repair the damage from what you will read.

OK, Your daughters are not counselors and know very little to nothing about infidelity. They are also biased and have an ardent agenda-to keep you two together at all costs. To keep you two together at all costs even if it is at one or the other's expense. To keep you two together even if it's a dysfunctional relationship. They are desperately trying to avoid great loss. Their level of desperation will make them irrational and extremely prone to rug sweep...just about everything. They will not be receptive to ANY reason to D, they will not trust ANY evidence you have. They will grieve the loss of your marriage and will go through all the stages of grief including denial and blame.

They will always love you. Even if they don't fully understand why you had to leave.

What I would do is carefully chronicle this journey. If this journey leads to D, and your kids do not learn to respect your decision and want answers, give it to them in writing. Tell them you required certain simple conditions regarding full disclosure so that you could make an informed decision about your future. So that you could get the reconciliation off on the proper footing, on a foundation of complete transparency, and honesty, openness and truth. So that you could have full closure knowing that there are no longer any secrets between you. But, she was not willing to do that. That instead, She chose to guard her secrets desperately and prioritized them above all else. Tell them you considered R but she poisoned that well by her actions. Tell your kids with conviction that you are not going to live a lie, that you demand true love, respect, honesty, transparency, devotion and sacrifice, and nothing less. Tell them you understand people make mistakes. But, you can't understand why someone would not be willing to fully rectify their mistake-especially with so much at stake, with absolute resolve. Have them read "Healing your spouse from your Affair".

You have the moral high ground. Make it a teaching moment for them. They will learn that there are consequences to certain actions and ...inaction. Conduct yourself with dignity, maturity, strength, class, an appropriate measure of understanding and confidence. Someday they will understand. Someday they may even respect you for your conduct. Someday, they may have to associate with this experience in their own relationships. So, conduct yourself in a manner you would want your children to emulate in an effort to protect themselves, their dignity, quality of life, and the sanctity of their own relationships.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 12:40 PM, April 26th (Sunday)]

Reality Blows just pegged it. DO THIS !!

DoneGone:

Bigger issued you are 2x4 – Well, sorry bro, but I’m sending a 4x12 your way.

I haven’t posted here for a while – but still lurk occasionally.

Now that you’re properly prepared for the on-slot of seasoned wood flying about your upper body, firstly, I am SO sorry you find yourself here.

Now for the hard stuff: Been there – done that – read the book – saw the movie.

It’s been 7 years – 7 LONG years since learning about my FWW’s sexting and A. No – she claimed, and would still claim, there was no intercourse. She knew beyond a doubt that if there was intercourse I would have divorced her back then. She knows if I ever found out there was intercourse – I would still likely divorce her. The ONLY thing she ever admitted to that I didn’t know about was receiving oral sex – one time – in OM’s motel room. And, I highly suspect the ONLY reason she admitted to that was because I knew by her emails that she was there – and from what they carefully said in their messages – I knew more went on than some heavy petting.

Do you see where this is headed? For seven years she has been the perfect wife. Returned to her Christian roots – been an absolute angel. Do I still wonder if I got ALL the truth? HELL yes! Every single freaking day – every time I look at her while she’s dressing – when she steps out of the shower – when she snuggles up next to me at night – when she becomes amorous. It’s still in the back on my mind. She received oral sex – admittedly had an orgasm – but somehow found the wherewithal in the midst of such excitement to deny OM, and herself, intercourse? That’s a hard pill to swallow. I’ve been gagging on it for years. Seven years....

You may wonder why I don’t do something about it, now. I’m telling you – if you R – there is only a certain amount of time you can ‘Beat the Dead Horse.’ Beating the dead horse after a period of time - At some point – you become what most would consider NUTS, crazy. You’re expected to move past it – get over it – forget about it. If not – then she would be telling you again that you need that therapist. So bringing up the past to stir the shit some more is not an option. Especially since there would be no new revelations. And why, after all this time, would anyone suddenly have a ‘come to Jesus’ moment and decide to tell all? Not going to happen. I have all the information I’ll ever get. Maybe it’s the whole truth – maybe not. Only two people know for sure – and they aren’t talking.

Point is – if you don’t get the truth now – you will most likely have pissed away any chance to EVER get it. The more time that goes by – the less likely truth will be remembered – and definitely not forth-coming. It becomes – water under the bridge – old news – and anyone who continues to bring it up is just – silly.

I don’t care what the lawyers said. Take that computer and cell phone to the geekiest geek in the country – take it to the freaking CIA if you have to. Get the information you NEED and deserve. If it causes you to file for divorce – then so be it…

At least you would be making an 'Informed’ decision. You wouldn’t be basing the rest of your life on what crumbs someone was willing to feed you. You wouldn’t be looking at her 10 years from now wondering if she really did have sex with the guy.

Look man – you need answers. Who the hell cares if you cracked the passwords to get your information? You don’t even have to reveal that you did it! You don’t have to admit it. A geek doesn’t have to dismantle a computer to open what’s stored inside. Information is power. And right now – she has the information – and you are powerless. She wants to dole it out in little bits – in the presence of a counselor – trying desperately to control you – and the situation. That’s bullshit. Manipulation at its finest.

Right now the only power that you are demonstrating is ‘anger.’ Turn the tables and take control of what you have control of. Tell her the ‘truth’ is all that’s going to save the marriage. If she don’t give you the passwords – then you’ll file D. And yes – if you get the information and it warrants filing – then you can still file. Apparently she believes what’s being kept from you will cause you to file. You need to make her believe you are filing anyway – so the only hope to R is her coming clean.

Take Bigger’s advice – make her take a poly. All the information may not be on the cell and computer. Get that info. Get that info. Get that info.

Good luck

Stillinpain, don't want to hijack this thread but we need to talk. I'm in the same boat as you. Limbo, to much time passed to bring back up but slowly going crazy.

HobbesTheTiger

“ Wow. I'm not sure how much naivety/inexperience of your daughters played part in this, and how much your WW's manipulation. I'm sorry you were ganged up upon like this.”

At this time, my daughters only know what WW has said to them. I think WW’s thinking has been, if she can get enough people to tell me that it was just a harmless mistake, then perhaps I will start believing it was just a harmless mistake. I am not just guessing here. I have been contacted by her brothers, family and friends; and even some of my family and friends and advised to lighten up on her. “She has gone through enough.” “No need punishing her anymore.” “She has learned her lesson.” “She despises OM, despises herself, despises her life.”

Just last night, my former next door neighbor told me that he had a gut feeling that I have it all, my wife has been forthright and honest in her admissions and although what she did certainly wasn’t good, at the same time, I should admit that it wasn’t all that bad. He said that it was time that I let it go. Just let it go. I should stop all this craziness and get my life back on track. Go back home where I belong. I asked him, “So you have this gift to know when something that has happened in my family is good or bad? You are able to intuit how far it went? I asked him where is gut feeling was when she was sending naked pictures to OM. He said she didn't mention that. I asked him where his gut was when she was meeting OM at motel. He said that she didn’t say anything about a motel. I told him that she shouldn’t have had to, after all, he did have his “gut.” He said he did not come to argue, he was just trying to help.

Mrhealed Forgot to mention. This is another thing that came out of the meeting. My wife agreed to polygraph after the three counseling sessions. I will be fast tracking the counseling sessions and I am taking on board all of the advice I have received here and playing nice.

She has agreed to polygraph. Actually, the word “agreed” is too light of a word; she has insisted. She feels like I will not believe anything that comes out of her mouth unless/until she takes polygraph. The fact that I need my wife to take a lie detector test in order for me to believe her denotes the dark place our marriage is in.

I will say, at this point, I do not know of a time before her affair that my WW had ever lied to me. She was incapable of it. As far as I was concerned, she was truth incarnate. I have never, for a second, had reason to doubt any word that has come out of her mouth. The months leading up to D-Day, she denied, gas lighted, even going so far as to accuse me of being delusional.

I strongly suspect that the reason she jumped on the polygraph was another attempt to convince me and my daughters that she has nothing to hide. I think when she so readily agreed to the polygraph, my daughters were further convinced that my imagination was much worse than the actual facts. They were proud of their mom and glad for me. She told my daughters that the reason she has not already agreed to lie detector test is because I had made it known that what little I knew was a deal breaker so why make it worse?

Craig2001

“For crying out loud, people that are hiding and lying will go to great lengths to make everyone around them either seem like the nutty one or come to their defense. Do not allow this hell.”

She successfully accomplished this in our meeting, in a nice, victim sort of way. I have gone from wanting my daughters to knowing nothing to wanting them to know everything. I have given and sacrificed much for my family. I have loved them with all my heart and withheld nothing. When the time comes, I will find a way to reveal to them the whole truth, nothing but the truth, SO HELP ME GOD.

redsox13

“It was inappropriate of your wife to involve your children in this discussion.”

I did not know she had it in her. WW is still acting innocent and almost like a victim. She has always been the darling of the people. By that I mean that people think she can do no wrong. Myself included. As far as I was concerned, she hung the moon. My feeling is that she is using this to convince others, as well as myself that she is somehow a sacrificial lamb and truly does not deserve what she is enduring. I may falter from time to time (especially when reading her texts and emails) but I am firm in my resolve that I will not allow her to turn me into a whipped sad sack. This entire process has been emasculating and even though I am bigger, stronger and more stubborn, obviously, she had the upper hand in our relationship.

Aplomado

“This is some serious...Master Class Manipulation. I pride myself on my ability to communicate with people in person, and in writing, and this is, hands down, some of the best gaslighting verbage I have ever seen. Your STBXWW should get a job in sales. She may have missed her calling.”

Thank you for that. I really debated posting her messages. Somehow it seemed like a violation, however, I have been tempted to close my eyes to the painful truth and listen to the song of the siren. Sometimes, I just want it to be over.

sandylee

“Remember once you get access to the devices, that you needed to check photos, files/documents, videos on the laptop/phone and audio recordings, not just emails and text messages.”

Thank-you for this information. I have already spoken with a computer tech that I am very confident and comfortable with. I will tell him I want everything, not just messages. Good idea.

“Your daughters were wrong, but it could be because of the limited information they know. Don't be rail roaded into any more of these family meetings. I can tell from all your daughters being there, that you are a very close family.”

I agree, they were wrong and what hurts is that, they think they did a good thing. This basically means they were used and what really irritates me is that now it is necessary to keep them in the loop once everything is open to the light of day.

I do appreciate them caring enough to volunteer a Friday night to marriage counseling. I do not appreciate the fact that it was me they were counseling. Not my wife; me.

“If this wasn't a PA, then your wife and OM likely discussed what they'd like to do with each other, what your sex life was like, how they wish they could be together and such like.”

This is what will help me walk away and not look back. This is another reason why I need to pursue this as far as I can. This is also why I will play nice until she takes lie detector test. Many people ask, “Why does it matter?” It matters because I’ve got to know. I can’t go on not knowing.

“Again, unless her email account is not Web based, the emails will have been deleted.”

What do you mean by web based?

Valentinessucks

“People who know me are shocked when they see the anger from me. I do have a governor on my actions even when I am rageful and probably so do you. So, this claim that they are worried about you is a little dramatic.”

I agree with you in more ways than one. I have surprised a few (a lot) people with my anger. I surprised myself because I am not predisposed to anger. It took me a while to get a handle on it.

“Are you DONE either way? In other words, are you basing any decision (divorce or reconciliation) on what you find in the texts/computer?”

I am wishy washy on that. I have moved out and do plan on divorcing her but do not know how it will go in the future. Actually, I cannot see my life without her, but, I also cannot see my life with her. I had to leave home, I have to divorce but I do not have to decide about her and our relationship at this time.

“Do you need the stuff to make your case in divorce? Do not give the phone and computer back unless a divorce judge compels you to. Or, try to get the judge to compel her to open them.”

I want the info for several reasons. I do want to know what this woman did to me and how she could do it, but lately, my thinking has been a little more practical. She is terrorized with the thought of our daughters, her friends and family thinking anything bad about her. She has always been the darling of her friends and family. Without reproach. With this information, I can keep her from extorting unholy amounts of money in the divorce. I am willing to be fair. In fact, I want to be fair. I want to retain this good feeling I have about myself, however, I want spousal support kept to a minimum and I should not be paying child support since my daughters are living on campus and only home several months in the summer. Yes, I will continue to support them financially as I always have, but to pay child support is a little over the top as far as I am concerned. Having access to the full extent of her infidelity will give me a bargaining chip to keep everything fair.

I know this sounds a little callous, but WW is the one who turned our love into a war. Also, what I have discovered from my attorneys is that the scales are tilted against me (especially so in my state) and anything I can do to tilt the scales in my favor is a plus and recommended to me by me.

Lonely Lucas

“I can't believe she is using your daughters in this. That is an awful thing to subject them to, on their behalf and yours. This is not a family matter.”

Guess what? Now it is a family matter. This really sucks.

MeanBean

"What will you do if those emails are already deleted?"

Ok, if they are already deleted, I think I will be relieved. I will know, beyond a doubt, all the nasty stuff she did with OM, but I will not have to read it. I think I will be ok if they are deleted and wiped. But, I am going to do everything, everything possible to get everything, everything off of them.

k8la "

Topic for first counseling session:

Her manipulation to involve your daughters and that she's now opened them up to gratuitous amounts of pain once everything comes out."

I have really been upset about this. My daughters have wonderful memories of WW and my relationship. They use to joke with us that we acted more like teenagers. Sometimes they would say, “get a room.” I am afraid, bringing them into this has taken something very precious and valuable away from them. My wife and I have always presented a united front when it came to the kids. We have never given them the opportunity to divide and conquer. We have always tried not to argue in front of them. This is not good. I think, her bringing then into this, has made them casualties, collateral damage. It should not have happened.

NuckingFuts

“It was a scumbag move for her to involve your daughters in this. I think it reasonable, since she brought them in, that they should get copies of everything you find on the phone and laptop.”

Once I have all the truth, or as much truth as I can get, I have no choice but share with them. This is really unfortunate.

Freeme

“I was also wondering if you have a deal breaker. If you find out that they have been sleeping together regularly even though she says it's just flirty talk... will the lies be a deal breaker?”

The text messaging should have been a deal breaker but her going to the motel was it. She was calling me many times throughout the day, texting me love notes, letting me know her exact where bouts, being open and honest to me; meanwhile, parking at the shopping center down the street, walking to the motel while telling me she was at the store picking up a few things. That was my deal breaker, however, what turns up in her computer and cell, as well as polygraph will determine whether there is a future or not.

RealityBlows Thanks for the kind words. My daughters being in the middle of this introduce a new low as well as a new focus. The truth has taken on a new meaning. I do not think WW realizes the reality of what she has done. I needed the truth for me; now I need it for my kids. That has made the truth 100 times more important. When I needed it for me, it was important. Now that I need it for my daughters, it’s everything.

“You have the moral high ground. Make it a teaching moment for them. They will learn that there are consequences to certain actions and ...inaction. Conduct yourself with dignity, maturity, strength, class, an appropriate measure of understanding and confidence. Someday they will understand. Someday they may even respect you for your conduct. Someday, they may have to associate with this experience in their own relationships. So, conduct yourself in a manner you would want your children to emulate in an effort to protect themselves, their dignity, quality of life, and the sanctity of their own relationships.”

Thank-you and well said. Sadly, and I mean sadly, they also learned something else. Loving someone with all of your heart does not make you betrayal proof. You said it, if this could happen to their parents, it could happen to anyone. It could happen to them. The nuclear family can be split easier than the atom. We are proof of that.

stillnpain you are right. Bigger issued a 2x4 and I needed it. He gave me a shove, and I am glad. Man, what you wrote killed me. I want my marriage, my life, my wife; but they are all gone. Whatever information I get from WW, I don’t know what I will do with it. I won’t know UNTIL I get it. I can say my life is absolutely miserable right now. This loneliness is the loneliest I’ve ever been. I read her emails and texts and I want to throw pride, self-respect, ego and everything else out the window and just go over there. I think about how good we were and I want it back. I read what you wrote and got the message. Thanks

So she's spreading the word about how harsh you're being over nothing to everyone that she thinks has influence with you. They're all going to need copies of everything too.

BS only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:00 PM, June 17th (Wednesday)]

Donegone, men don't cry...I had tears in my eyes reading your last post. We've hit you with 2x4's, we've beat you up, at a time that you needed some support. I'm sorry we had to go to those lengths, sometimes it's what it takes. It sounds like you are seeing things a little more clearly. I'm so sorry about the nightmare that surrounds you. Everyone minimizing your wife's affair. Sadly they don't know how deep of an issue it all is. They minimize it because they just don't know!

Brother, stick with us, we're here for you. We understand and we're here to help you navigate through the nightmare. I understand the loneliness, look at the name I gave myself. It was only a month ago I found this site, over the past weekend I've debated requesting a name change, I don't feel lonely anymore. Much like you my STBX' affair has been minimized to all around me, even blamed on me. I realized, this site is there for me, they have my back, they understand. It helps with the loneliness brother. Thanks for taking the time to reply to so many posts. I must have taken a great deal of time.

[This message edited by LonelyLucas at 10:44 PM, April 26th (Sunday)]

DG...

Web based emails are free ones you can get through Hotmail, yahoo, gmail, etc.

If her email address ends with one of those, she can access it from anywhere (library, work, etc) without the computer that's in your possession.

If she has a web based account, she's already deleted and covered her tracks.

My wife did the 6 months too but I'd have had moved out and D if she didn't give me passwords immediately. Your WW is deleting evidence as we speak.