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This is so far beyond the TS escorts and even the possible STD's.

This man is NOT WELL. He is not even close to the man you thought you married.

I rarely say this but I'd get out now and leave him to his lies.

WIS,

I have to agree with brokenblackbird. All of the confusion he causes is to divert you away from the TS escorts. Honestly, I think he has told so many lies, that the line between the truth and lies has been forever blurred TO HIM. He doesn't KNOW the truth about anything because he has told so many different versions, he can't remember what IS the truth.

And yes, he makes a big production of the therapy every week. This is designed to keep you off balance so the elephant in the room has been pushed far into the corner while he spins all kinds of fabrications to make you look and feel absolutely crazy.

And of course, he continues with how much this is all killing HIM.

Unless and until he CAN be honest, I think you're spinning your wheels in couples counseling. Do YOU feel like you made any progress this week? Were the TS escorts even discussed?

This is all just so bizarre, I don't know how you are keeping your wits about you! I would honestly recommend you find some IC for yourself. I believe a therapist could help you sort through this and find out what is best for YOU.

Keep posting WIS and let us know how you're doing.

Oh dear.. I got to this line

"I asked my husband last night if I could examine his penis and he let me" and my brain blew up.

Honey, what were you expecting to find there??

You should stop trying to save him, because you have to help yourself first. You have lost connection with reality. You pushing him to therapy, you read lots of articles about his mental state, you focused on him and his problems, trying to turn him to normal- but it is you who need a help. You have to ask yourself- why are you still dealing with all this shit months after DD instead of living healthy life? Why don't step out of it and come back when HE FIX YOURSELF? You see his problems, but do you see yours? It seem so easy to point on his problems and let him work on it, but can you do it yourself?

You like a person who go deeper and deeper with hope that there is a safe land on the opposite site, but you wont make there, because it too far.

I only lately understood saying "we deserve each other". There are lots of sings of broken mind- drugs, alcohol, porn, prostitutes, cheating, healthy person would run away when they first appear, and if you ignore them or need more facts, that is your mental health problem. I did ignore porn, thought it harmless. Guess what? I got whole package on a top, flirting, cheating, lying, and of course it all was my fault, was digging to deep. Tried to save it anyway. Till I realised that I AM a reason of my own misery.

I am sorry if I've been hard on you. I know you have hard time now, but you need IC, not MC. You have to help yourself.

WIS,

Bumping to see how you are doing?

Well, basically I just want to make sure I've done everything I can before giving up on this marriage. I'm not in denial, I know he won't change, I know he's a pathological liar, and has been for nearly 60 years and won't change now, but for my own satisfaction, I need to know that every avenue was explored. I need to know that every possibility was tried.

He acts now like if he gets another clean diagnosis from the dermatologist (as in no HPV) then all is ok. It's not ok. That's only one symptom of the problem.

He also asked if we can skip this Saturday's therapy session. I plan on having a talk with him tonight and tell him he has to be COMMITTED to working on the marriage, COMMITTED to doing everything HE can to work to fix things, to get TRUST back in our relationship. COMMITTED to getting rid of secrets and lies. Yes I know this doesn't work with him, but I have to, to make sure I've at least gone over the plan with him because honestly he has no clue, even at this late stage in the game, of what he has to do. He is clueless.

He has no clue whatsoever! So my plan is to TELL him directly what has to be done, and see if he budges, see if he show any signs of comprehending.

In therapy last Saturday he lied. He made up yet ANOTHER f-king story about the DeadChild. Now his dead child's name was "Alex". A few weeks ago he admitted there was no DeadChild. Then in therapy he makes up a new story. The therapist has no idea what my H is doing, he takes what he says at face value.

If there is no EFFORT put forth (and this is what I expect) then we are done.

I have to be honest and admit in some ways my H is fascinating, from a psychological standpoint - seriously WTF??? Wow. But that's not to say I want to be part of his weird sick psychology. I can't live never knowing what is the truth and what isn't. Most isn't.

I have a therapist friend who has declared him cast in stone, never to be "cured" or "fixed". I believe this is true, but I want to try to explain one last time, in specific terms, what he has to do, and what the stakes are so I have the satisfaction of knowing I did everything I could.

Wow, WIS. Sounds like you have your head straight and just want to make sure of your decisions. I admire your ability to see this clearly and your desire to make sure you did everything you could. It truly does sound like your H really has no clue whatsoever.

I'm actually just dumbfounded at his ever-changing stories and his "logic". It sounds like he truly believes all of this will just go away if the Dr. gives him a clean bill of health. He wants to stop therapy and just have everything go back to the way it was before. Sadly, I tend to agree with your therapist/friend. You can't reason with someone that absolutely cannot SEE reason. It almost sounds like he truly believes all of his lies.

So, did you go to therapy yesterday? If so, how did that go?

Hugs, WIS. Check in and let us know how you're doing.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them. I also spent so much time explaining to my CH multiple tkmes the different things that I'd need him to do to attempt R. I finally realized that everything I'd been saying, sending him lists of, and fighting to get him to understand and make a priority as he dragged his feet, it was all completely common sense and beyond obvious. Why did I waste time trying to coax my CH into and spell things out like: don't cheat, don't lie, be honest, do counseling (and take it seriously and do a lot of it and starting yesterday), have empathy, act like you care (and explaining the types of things ppl do and don't do and the reactions they have and don't have if they actually care)?!

14 mos post d-day I realize- he did almost nothing while I was trying to do all of the work for both of us to make up for it instead of just sitting back and realizing he was doing nothing except making things worse. I am not his mom, needing to raise him and instill morals and a conscience- I am his wife. If he didn't come with the morals and conscience he claimed, it is not my job to coerce him into growing them and suffering his mistreatment until he does.

You said you can't survive without knowing what's true and what isn't- that may be a fools errand especially given that you also say that he's a pathological liar and that he won't change. I was still getting some lies from my CH a year post d-day and that might even be continuing. It doesn't work (with a cheating liar) to say you're "only" staying until you get all the truth.

It can be a losing battle and counterproductive to do "everything you can" to save a marriage while your spouse's actions seem intent on destroying it, you, and both of your health and well-being (regardless of what he says).

My CH also was hysterical and collapsed to the floor shaking in reaction to my sadness over his cheating. I fell for it- once. After that, I told him- if you have some reaction to the consequences of your cheating (me being a bit sad or distant) that is so disproportionate as to try to bring all the focus on yourself (because you're hysterical, collapsed, whatever), I will not entertain it. I will walk away. Since I said that, presto changeo, no more collapsing histrionic fits.

I suggest you tell your husband something similar. And let him know that, if he says he's suicidal, you will leave and call the police/ambulance/psych as the appropriate authorities to deal with it. These reactions are either manipulative (in which case he'll stop as my CH did as soon as I told him I wouldn't cater to that nonsense anymore) or they're real (in which case professionals should be dealing with them and not you).

I also realized that I don't want to be married to someone who is either a 5-year old (throwing tantrums at the expected consequences of his own behavior) or so manipulative that he would cheat, lie, and then throw fits to try to take the attention off of his actions and the consequences that I was suffering in order to try to make me cater to him and nurture him even more.

WIS - how are you doing? Did you have counseling on Saturday?

He refused to go to therapy last Saturday because he "needed a break from it" (??), but promised he'd go every Saturday starting this Saturday. Yeah, he's totally stalling. I told him he won't want to go this Saturday either, but he "promised" he would.

I feel like time is wasting away, and we aren't talking about anything, nothing positive is happening. Week after week is passing by. 60 minutes a week in therapy is not enough, there has to be work beyond the therapist's office and there is none. We live quietly like civil roommates.

I haven't had a good talk with him because either I'm not in the mood for a potential outburst, or I chicken out, or I get discouraged and feel like I'm doing all the work (I am) and nothing will get resolved if he's not open and willing.

Honestly, I don't think we will ever get past his lies. The lying is so engrained in him and I can't take it, there is no trust - no trust, no relationship. He's not doing anything to work on this. Not a thing, really.

I see things on TV, like someone mentions Chicago, and I want to blurt out "so... did you actually ever GO to Chicago and if so for WHAT?" or some other snarky comments but I refrain. I'm feeling WAY too repressed. But I also don't relish the idea of him having another tantrum or whatever. It's all boiling under the surface here, and I fear a blow up.

WIS, thanks for checking in. You seem to be in "limbo-land", as we call it around here at SI. I'm sure he is just hoping if he stalls long enough, throws enough tantrums, ignores the elephant in the room - this will all just blow over.

Meanwhile, you are dying inside.

Honestly, I don't think we will ever get past his lies. The lying is so engrained in him and I can't take it, there is no trust - no trust, no relationship. He's not doing anything to work on this. Not a thing, really.

^^THIS^^ absolutely. Without TWO people rowing the boat of reconciliation, there just can't BE reconciliation. From what you have posted, it doesn't seem like he is doing anything to rebuild your trust - he's not being transparent, he's not showing with every fiber of his being that he WANTS this marriage more than anything in the world, etc. It seems that you may have reached the "plane of lethal flatness", and that is not conducive to reconciliation.

WIS, I think you have to ask yourself some hard questions and depending on your answers, make a plan and have a DEADLINE. Ask yourself what are YOU getting out of this relationship? If absolutely nothing changed or was resolved, are you willing to continue to live like this? What does your WS need to do to show that he's actively working on repairing this mess?

Those are just a few of the questions. I'm sure you can think of more. But the gist is, IF none of your answers are hopeful or positive, what is YOUR DEADLINE for taking some kind of action FOR YOU? I'm not saying run to a divorce lawyer; I'm saying that no one should have to live like you are living in a marriage.

We live quietly like civil roommates.

I know what isn't what you want. The question is, what can you do FOR YOU that will feel like a positive step in knocking you both out of limbo-land? Maybe you need to take a weekend trip away somewhere and just go somewhere that YOU enjoy and leave his lying as$ at home so YOU can have some peace and quiet away from his meltdowns and inactivity? He needs a shocking dose of reality to fully understand that you have 1 foot out the door, and all he needs to do is keep doing NOTHING and you'll place the other foot out and not look back.

These are just some suggestions, WIS. Only you can decide what is best FOR YOU.

Hugs....

Please stay safe. I'm worried for you.

seems the pain he suffered in his past has caught up with him. this is why any BS really needs to heal properly before moving on to new relationships. Im very sorry you are here.

Had that talk last night, for 3 hours.

He admitted he has a problem with depression. I consider that to be a small victory.

He still maintains he never met up with the escorts, it was just a "fantasy", and he said he will "go to his grave" knowing that he never met any of them.

And now the DeadChild wasn't one he had with his ex-wife, it was with someone else, and... it wasn't HIS child. HUH???

He mentioned how he was suffering so much now, and I told him it's not about him now, it's about me healing, and him doing everything he can to help me heal and to reduce MY pain and to earn my trust. So this morning on his way out the door to work he sarcastically says "don't fuss over me anymore... since it's all ABOUT YOU now..."

I'm thoroughly exhausted.

In some sick way, it's like they do us a favor. There is only so long that a sane person can try to explain to someone else that the sky is blue, or that the earth is round, or that it revolves around the sun. I told my CH that he should feel lucky as I attempted to explain what he could do to make me feel better or to try to rebuild trust or to work on himself or our marriage- because I soon would not care enough to think about those things or to try to help him understand anything else. Ever again.

We went to therapy last night and initially I thought it went relatively well, mostly talking about lying and why it's not a good idea, etc, and got him to open up a little about his depression. The therapist, while not suggesting we stop going, did suggest he go to a psychiatrist and get medication.

As soon as we got to the car to leave, my H said that he didn't like going and was only going to therapy to make me happy, and that he felt like he was being interrogated.

Last night he was severely depressed and refused to eat dinner, wouldn't talk to me, and went to bed early saying he was just tired. It's almost 1 pm and he's still in bed.

In therapy last night he said the DeadChild was a preemie that only lasted a few hours, by his ex-wife again now (after him saying Thursday night that it was by a different woman, and wasn't even his). This is the 3rd story in 2 weeks, and the 7th story total. How can he do this?? Does he not see that making up a different story each time is crazy and isn't helping him??

I think I agree that we need to stop going to marriage counseling and get him to IC psychiatrist therapy. A few nights ago he told his daughter on the phone that he was extremely depressed - so now his kids are alerted (he didn't tell them any specifics of why he's depressed) - it's only a matter of time before they figure out more truth. I knew he was in serious shape, but it's getting worse (or just coming out more) - he has serious mental problems and needs serious help.

I know it's beyond obvious that he has serious mental problems (duh, 4 hours crying on the floor, depression, escorts, lies... etc), I'm just trying to do the right things and I'm starting to feel lost. I'm not in denial. This is bad, I know the reality, and how long can I keep trying to make things better when maybe there is no getting "better"? I know this. But he's my husband. I can't just abandon him without trying to help him in some way. If he won't go to IC then I will give up, I won't force him to go. He's scared of prescription drugs, and I am too, but maybe some of the new anti-depressants would be a good thing, better than the turmoil now.

WIS,

I'm just catching up on your thread, and sorry you are still in the midst of this crazy-making. I think you know that your H has some serious mental issues. The 7 different stories about the deceased child is enough to drive any sane person crazy. That's the thing with his constantly changing stories - they make YOU think you are crazy because you keep hearing different things and wonder if YOU are the crazy one.

I agree that MC won't help you now in his current state. HE needs IC and to get on medication. Please don't be afraid of AD's or prescription drugs. They are NOT mind-altering drugs. They are no different than if you had diabetes or a thyroid deficiency - they are there to help your body with a chemical imbalance. Now, if he's psychotic or has another serious personality disorder, I will admit that those drugs are in a different category than AD's. I have been on AD's for 15+ years, and I can tell you that they have changed my life 360 degrees, and for the better. I am one of those people with a true chemical imbalance, and I will be on AD's for the rest of my life. I'm OK with that. My life is soooooooo much better since my depression was diagnosed and an appropriate medication was prescribed. I'm not saying AD's have been a "happy pill"; just that they have helped me with major depression that I didn't realize I had for most of my adult life. I just thought I looked at life "differently", when in fact, I was looking at life through a skewed reality of depression. Depression DOES affect our perception of things.

I understand you wanting to help your H. Sometimes, when we are depressed, we can't find the strength to reach out for help. But, he must take responsibility for his well-being too. You can be supportive, but he must be willing to seek the help he needs too.

I would encourage you to get into IC for yourself too, to help you sort through what YOU are going through. You can't put all of your focus on him and forget yourself.

Please check in and let us know how you're doing.

(((((womaninshock))))

I'm still worried for your safety. Your husband's house of cards is crashing down - brought down by YOU. You are the one person who now knows at least some of the truth. It's like he's in a boat that is rapidly sinking, and YOU are the hole in the boat, from his point of view.

Do some consultations with psychologists and ask them if you might be in danger. I'm not an alarmist, but this situation feels dangerous to me. Hopefully when things become unbearably real for him, he will just run away, but there's a small chance he will become violent towards you. All the talk of dead girlfriends and dead kids... and you mentioned you think he will refer to himself as a widower in the future... he might try to actualize this. Please be careful.

WIS, bumping to see how you are doing?

WIS, bumping again to see how you're doing?