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She's never downplayed what she did. She tells me at least that she's down a horrible thing and she is so, so sorry about that.

After lying and being caught she knows she broke the rules. It was a horrible thing but she said she was sorry. Her saying that you’re punishing her means that she said she was sorry and it should be over. Her attitude is “I said I was sorry, what more do you want?”

ICO, with all due respect, you are still just listening to her words and not evaluating her based on her actions.

Her actions consist of things which are not contiguous with what she is saying.

She says she is horrified at what she did - what the hell else is she going to say?

She says she'll do anything to repair the marriage - what the hell else is she going to say?

She says she'll report back on all of their contact points? I have some ice to sell you in Iceland, my friend. She lied about that for over a year, had his penis inside of her, still lied about it after dday, but you're going to take her word for it now? LOL, if that is the case you would be the ONLY BS here in the history of this site who that worked out for. It is on HER to re-establish trust. This is not on YOU decide now is the time to trust her in BLIND FAITH.

And in terms of the job, of course she is going to oxford to be with him. Fuck losing the job, she KNOWS what Oxford means. And NO she doesn't need to go to Oxford for her job She hasn't even taken the micro-step of telling her boss that "my husband and I are having some personal issues which will prohibit me from travelling internationally in the future". Nope, instead three fucking weeks after d-day she's already priming the runway for another boyfriend visit. She may have even convinced herself it's something else. It's not. You haven't even gotten her heading out to a job interview. You haven't even had her ask "maybe if I go to my boss in confidence we can establish complete no contact with my boyfriend"

Your wife may be saying some decent things now, but you're not getting SHIT for actions. Right this instant, go to her office and ask to see the chat history on her instant messenger. Just walk in quietly, and tell everyone that you want to take your lovely wife to lunch. Then when you are in her office, get a look at it. Then demand to see the journal. She WILL NOT let you. Actions, my friend.

On our first posts to you, we suggested FULL TRANSPARENCY, and she's still not letting you read things. Don't you think that there is a reason for this? She WILL delete her journal if you signal it, so demand it along with the job when you have her served.

And fuck it, have her served at work. Then atleast she has an excuse for not travelling if some some reason you backtrack, and no offense, I wouldn't be shocked if you caved. So protect yourself now when you're not caving. Nobody ever got fired from a job for getting served divorce papers

ICO,

I have been reading your story from the beginning three weeks ago. It is certainly a heartbreaker. I am so sorry you are going through this. You sound like a good person that wants to do the right thing.

I think others are much more qualified to provide specific advice to you. All I can say is do not get caught up in the moment regarding this D vs R decision. Tune out the noise from your wife. Think long-term. Where do you want your life to be 1 year from now, 5 years, 10 years?

Your wife has obviously not done what it takes to move towards reconciliation. She also has not taken ownership regarding why your marriage is in the condition it is in. Why should she be surprised that you are now an angry person? That's what happens when a spouse cheats and then lies after getting caught and does not show remorse. It is only natural to be angry. As others said, you need to keep your natural anger in check and be strategic about how to move forward. The D can be cancelled at any time. I think given the impasse in which she is not leaving her job or showing true remorse, serving her with D papers is the right thing to do. If things change in coming months, it can be cancelled.

Stay strong and keep in mind that a lot of people care about you!

I know this tone is probably a lot different than the last couple of days but I do feel like I've been...not too hard on her, but maybe I need to check myself. Make sure that I'm not going overboard? I didn't have good boundaries before and maybe now that I know where they are I am pushing them very hard.

Maybe what I have to say belongs on the Reconciliation page, not the JFO page.

You just found out, what?, a month ago? This is all still so fresh and raw. Emotions (on both sides) will run high.

I think my fWW & I are doing a pretty decent job of R.

To get there, I had to make sure my communication style wasn't all "You bitch! You ruined my life!" and more along the lines of "I feel very unsafe right now. I have a hard time trusting..."

The last quote is a good example of what my MC called "using a level playing field". The first is an "unlevel playing field".

Do work on your communication. Whether this M is salvaged or not, it will serve you well as a life skill (and with the kids, as they age). Good communication skills will bring your wife out of any fog more quickly than verbal attack will. Good communication skills will serve you well should this thing start blowing up and head to a D. The 180 you mentioned above..this is a part of that. Anger exhibited is not. Level headedness is.

As hurt as we BS's are and can be, it is sooo important to not lose cool. To be in control. Do deep breaths. Put a conversation on hold for 5 minutes while you go splash your face off & collect yourself. Whatever... just work on "fair" communications. Listing her transgressions isn't in your best interest at this stage.

Of course, emphasizing that she needs to leave the job, done properly, IS in yours *(and hers) best interest. But do it cooly. Collected. That's 180 stuff, and yes...it is hard.

It isn't that you're not allowed to feel rage (you are!), it is that you're not allowed to throw rage her way. Very destructive (and it seems unfair, but it is what it is).

You're getting good advice. I don't necessarily agree with the "She's setting you up!!" crowd, but I guess it is better to be safe than sorry.

Stand firm on her leaving that damn job. What she's trying (to keep things controlled & professional-only) just can't be done. It can't. Not only does she get an email and be reminded of him, he'll sit across a meeting table and use his x-ray vision. You know? Shoe on the other foot, you'd be expected to leave the job, too.

I can't remember. Has your WW read Linda MacDonald's book yet? If so, what's her take?.......http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/Mini-Books.html......

Keep posting, ICO.

I appreciate the help. I'm still getting the papers drawn up. I'm just sad about where this has gotten.

Even more than before, my whole life is about to change.

I was just planning on handing her the divorce papers. Not necessarily filing. Either way I am sure it will be taken as a hostile act and she's going to flip out. Dreading that.

Well the tact that Canoe just gave you may have just been the best advice on the thread. If you hand her the papers and it becomes WW3, all you can do is act like the man that your parents would be proud of. If she still acts like "that" then that is the answer you've been looking for.

Put the show on the other foot, if you got caught fucking your neighbor and she served you with divorce papers, don't you think that you'd probably shoulder some of that burden. Like "well I sure fucked up, how do I dig out of this now????"? Or would you be like "you stupid asshole why are YOU doing this to ME?!"

She also said that everything I am doing is just all so sudden that it makes her feel uneasy. Working out a lot, doing more stuff away from the house, buying new clothes, the dance classes...all of it. She says that I should be doing that stuff but it was just all very quick that it took her by surprise.

It sounds like the reality of the situation is starting to hit her. You are not standing by and just taking it lying down. What she has done has changed you and your marriage in a very profound way. She is uncomfortable because you are doing things beyond what the marriage was like before D-Day. The ownership for that is with her.

As far as using the words, "feel uneasy". I think the word "chutzpah" applies to that statement. How does she think you felt after D-Day, after the NC lie, and every day that she goes to work and communicates with him. I would be uneasy as hell myself in your shoes. Staying in the job is really the crux of the problem, if you are going to try to R. I just can't see how it can be done. She needs a clean slate for a true and lasting R. Which means, bye bye job. It is a strong job market now. She can find another one. Perhaps one that even pays more.

Keep a level head. Be strategic!

I appreciate the help. I'm still getting the papers drawn up. I'm just sad about where this has gotten.

Even more than before, my whole life is about to change.

I was just planning on handing her the divorce papers. Not necessarily filing. Either way I am sure it will be taken as a hostile act and she's going to flip out. Dreading that.

1- Has she read the Linda MacDonald book? Have you given it to her?

2- I'd still ask her one more time to leave that job before handing the papers over, advising her the consequence ahead of time. (VAR it)

3- The D-service stuff should be at work, by 3rd party, so evidence it was received is set. VAR the aftermath.

Edit: I think she has read that one already. There's been so many, I can't keep them straight.

I wasn't really meaning to give her the divorce papers as an official "you've been served" kind of way but more of a, I went to a lawyer and I am dead serious about this shit kind of way.

She is trying to see about lasting out until October. 1. he might be gone by then 2. he might get reassigned to another department and they wouldn't have to work together

I am not against waiting 2 months, but I am against her going to back over there. She's trying to give me assurances that she will stay with someone and be accountable the whole time. I have trouble trusting that.

[This message edited by ICanOvercome at 9:42 AM, August 5th (Wednesday)]

ICO, I think you get it, for the most part.

By that I mean, I think you see how this works - the small part of you that is holding out hope is completely normal, because you are a good guy who wants to 'do the right thing', and keeping your family together is what we have been raised to believe is ALWAYS the 'right thing'.

These guys are right though. This IS how it goes. Her mom jumping on her bandwagon? Completely normal. Her friends will too. It is like a game to them - a 'win the popularity contest' game. Truth doesn't matter to her. IMAGE matters.

Want to know how you fight this? By being CALM. Don't be baited. She says 'you scare me' - STAY CALM. She says 'I don't recognize you' - STAY CALM. Whatever she says, STAY CALM.

Just remember - you know the facts, and you know you. Don't play her game at all. I am not saying be a robot - of course you mourn the situation - but don't engage in a debate with her about WHY you might be a little prone to anger... You see, in her mind, she has stopped having sex with him, so you should trust her and get over it - LIKE NOW.

So when you speak to her, just remember - any reaction of yours will be exageratted and exploited by her later. Don't give her anything to work with. Don't play the game. Same goes talking to others. Remain calm, stick to the facts, and continue taking care of YOU and watching and evaluating her actions...

"There should be more transparency and less lies."

Requirement is 100% transparency & absolutely zero lies. Anything else just aint going to work.

So after she cheats on you. She gets to have a nice holiday to jolly old England. Pretty nice bonus for banging another coworker.

And there is the added bonus of close interaction with her FB, but don't worry she'll keep it professional.

Why won't you trust her.

This has to be one of the hardest threads to read.

Not because of what she did, but because of what she is currently allowed to keep doing to you and your kids.

I will try to be more direct since you keep avoiding what others are saying, and they have tried to say it in so many different ways.

If you think your child was hurt falling yesterday, it's nothing like the pain she will feel if she ever finds out how you acted at this stage of your life.

Your kids deserve someone that they could be proud of, someone to learn from, someone to always guide them when needed. This is always done by example, and YOU ARE NONE OF THESE PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.

Your marriage as you know it is over, this was decided by her when she chose to fuck someone else. Even if you are foolish enough to consider R at this time, it has to be a completely different relationship with her that starts from new.

Just like she didn't partially screw this guy, you don't partially end this joke of a marriage. You have her served by bailiff at her office. You D her immediately and allow her to go and do exactly what she is already still doing, only it's not your care anymore.

Please read the thread from Spaceghost007...his actions said it all, yet he always treated his wife with kindness and a respect she obviously didn't deserve. Never allow yourself to stoop to their level.

Keeping the upper hand is about personal change. One day your kids will be old enough to ask you what happened. Make sure they don't have to ask, make sure your actions showed them your true character.

I wasn't really meaning to give her the divorce papers as an official "you've been served" kind of way but more of a, I went to a lawyer and I am dead serious about this shit kind of way.

and doing it that way telegraphs the exact opposite of you being "dead serious". Have her served if you are dead serious...don't put on a dog & pony show.

Did she tell her mom that you caught her having an affair, and that is why you are having problems? And her mom took her side? I doubt it.

I bet you she is telling mom that YOU are cheating. New clothes, dance lessons, working out, leaving at night.

Does she know about this site? Could she be investigating you, just to see how much to ou have on her and OM?

Sybo is right.

You need to start the D train for real. Get it rolling and don't look back. If she comes to her senses and says she'll do anything it takes to stop the train, maybe you might listen. Or maybe not - you might decide you like being on that train.

You haven't had a 2x4 in a bit.

- she is lying to you about him being out in October. Well, I don't know if she is lying, but she's lied about everything else that you have no choice but to assume she is lying

- she needs to be served divorce papers on Friday. YAHT (yet another hollow threat) from you is going to mean shit.

- she is lying by to you about having to go to Oxford. She hasn't even tried to get out of it by confiding "personal issues" to her boss.

Again and again and again, it's like you want to set yourself up to maximize your pains. Stop arguing with yourself and just fucking stand up for yourself. YOUR WIFE HAS A BOYFRIEND. SHE "needed some time to decide" between you two for Christ's sake. YOU ARE DOING NOTHING BUT ASKING HER TO DECIDE BETWEEN YOU AND HER BOYFRIEND.

If she thinks she can wait him out then:

- she should put in for a leave of absence until he is gone

- if he called her after no contact was requested she needs to file a harassment case with human resources

if he is not out by October then he two month leave would have given her time to find a new job or if not she simply quits.

I have been watching you flounder around on and off, mostly on, since you posted here. I think you have talked to an unremorseful cheater as much as anyone else I can remember. You talk too much.

I agree you are going too fast for the divorce because you are doing it all wrong. You are painting your way into a corner. You don't know how to do this.

Stop being angry outwardly to her. If you have to, put a 7-second delay on your mouth every time you want to talk to her.

You keep listening to her talk and say this and that. Her words are MEANINGLESS. Only actions matter.

What you need to do is to tell her what you need. You must determine what that is, but most I believe who follow this process want to feel safe their cheaters are going stop cheating and improve the marriage. You do not demand, you request. You don't want to force her to do anything she doesn't want to. However, she must know that you can't continue if certain minimum requirements are met. For me, and many others here it seems, it would be her leaving the job, or him, not immediately, necessarily, not being out of her job, but for her to show a good-faith effort. Contact executive search firm and send it her resume. Keep regular (weekly) update of how the job search is going. This is not forcing her, any more than her showing up at work when she'd rather go to sleep late and stay home. There are certain things you do voluntarily because it in the end benefits you, your kids, or God forsake, maybe even your husband or marriage.

Be calm and tell her what you need to stay in the marriage. No ultimatums, no threats, and no deadlines yet though maybe in your head you think about a deadline, but don't set it in stone to her. Stop demanding things then not doing it. Let her learn from now on that you say what you mean and mean what you say.

It is completely reasonable for you to expect her to leave that job. You are not asking her to stop working period, just to make a good-faith effort to leave that job she cheated on. Honestly, what did she expect was going to happen cheating on the job. As us old timers say, don't shit where you eat.

She already is being transparent. Maybe you want STDs from her. Maybe you want to think internally a deadline after which you need to feel she loves you and will have sex with you. You determine. You tell her what you need, not to force her, but because you have certain minimum requirements to be happy and safe in your marriage. Tell her you willbkeep your options open to leave her if you can't keep doing this the way it is. After you tell her what you need, then shut up about it. Don't repeat yourself. You are being there for the current time because you choose to, and you can leave when you are ready to leave her.

You can during that time, and I suggest it, to detach from her until she meets your needs, the main thing being the good-faith effort to leave the job, but you figure out your own needs.

Eric has some solid ACTIONS she could perform to demonstrate a commitment to the marriage.

I wonder if your spouse would even do ONE of these ICO?

Remember when she would quit to save the marriage? When was that? Is that no longer even on the table for her?

If you were to bring any of this up - would the conversation quickly be about how 'you have changed' and 'you're so angry' (no matter how calmly you are speaking?)

She is trying to see about lasting out until October. 1

You realize this is buying time right?

She has alternative motives, with active WWs nothing is what they say.

Have her served Friday at work, put VAR in car, out other man, to his SO if he has one. Out them both to their employers.

Do you know what "Shock and Awe" is?

Hit first, Fast, and hard, her actions up to right now have been the same.

You love the idea of who you "think" your wife is, but the reality is much different.

From this moment forward words are meaningless, let the actions speak for themselves, remember you can not make any one listen to you, you can only make them wish they had.

Mate, you can thank me later but get one of them vars on you asap.

Your wife is not remorseful. Play dumb but get the ball rolling at least. Don't get angry, be calculative and cold.

If you have to change tack and be all sympathetic of her "difficult" position and pretend to be sweet when you deal with this person you've got more problems than her -unless you're sneaky enough to use it as a tool to aid you in getting a favourable outcome in divorce court.

You're still in limbo and you'll be there unless you do the 180 and detach completely. Think, there's a reason why its quoted ad nauseum. It works.