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BH never came home from going out last night. I have been up most of the night worried. He has over 230 text messages to OBS on phone log, can't even text me once to let me know he is safe. I am pissed more than anything. I am home with the kids who just woke up and asked where daddy is? I am all for him doing what he needs to do to work through this either together or alone. But bottom line remains the same. Kids come first and they never have for him. I have always been primary caregiver. I have no idea how to confront him about this. Tired to call him at 4am and he sent my call to vm but continued to text OBS.

BH here.

That's not okay.

He is in enormous pain and feels supremely betrayed, but that doesn't exempt him from his responsibilities as a father. It'll be a tricky message for his WS to deliver, of course. Is there anyone else who knows your situation who could deliver the reinforcing message of his responsibilities? Just because he was betrayed, doesn't mean he can betray his own kids.

Strength.

We have a few friends of the marriage with children that have been trying to reach out and help him. He chooses instead to run around town drinking with single friends that encourage him to enjoy the single life, that he deserves to have his fun too. I really can't argue with the fun part, but have a little decency to let me know you are safe. I have nothing to tell the kids, "I don't know where your father is, he never came home!" That just doesn't work for me. All I could say is he will be home sometime. Breaks my heart, last night we went to a friend house for a kid friendly New Years, we were home and in bed by 9. On the way home they asked where he was and I said he was out with some friends. They asked if he was at a bar? Kids shouldn't know that. I have always struggled to keep that away from them. Even before DDay I was covering for him.

Moondancer, I'm a BH whose WW had a ONS, not a two year long EA that turned into a PA. I've followed your story because you're here on SI, trying so hard to put your marriage back together. I applaud your efforts and am overwhelmed by your sincerity. I'm also nearly 50 (yikes! I know) and to me you're both so young. So is my wife. She's your age, in fact. So, I'm a bit more mature than your BH (though I'm sure people might argue otherwise).

You wrote in another post that he doesn't want your apologies. I told my wife, on Christmas Eve, that I didn't want to hear her say "I love you" anymore because this is what she said to me just hours before she had sex with the OM. I simply don't believe her when she says that. Or at least, I should say, it just doesn't have the same impact that it used to. Even if I believed it whole-heartedly, I would have to say that her definition of love is a bit different than mine, but that, of course, is just par for the course, so to speak.

She also apologies for her cheating, for the lies, for the blame-shifting she did, for the pain, doubts and fears I've experienced, for turning me into a man with a volatile temper (far worse than it ever was, anyway). I know she's sorry. I know she regrets what she did; that she regrets becoming the woman she's become. She can apologize all she wants to and it makes little difference. What I want to see is action. What I want to feel is remorse. Big difference and one that I think you already understand.

It's not what she says that make much of a difference. It's what she does that makes all the difference in the world. I would have been tremendously encouraged if she'd joined SI and sought out help, insight and wisdom the way you're doing right now, today, this morning. But "it's not her style," and, according to her and her IC, she not "in the same category" as the other waywards here. Well... we can rationalize all we want to, can't we?

As Husburned said, right now your husband is in a tremendous amount of pain. That's part of it. That's the start of it. The great sex you two are having together is most likely hysterical bonding. Please bear in mind that it's "hysterical." If you want to understand it a bit better, I started a post a while back called "How real is hysterical bonding," mostly to help my wife understand it, but I'm sure you might benefit from it as well, especially being so close to his D-day. The replies from others are certainly more interesting than any thoughts I might have on the subject.

I didn't chose the username "unhinged" for shits and giggles. It's not a "clever" moniker. I honestly felt completely unhinged by wife's infidelity, her lies and then, worst of all, the blame-shifting. By definition, unhinged means: "mentally unstable, deranged." And that is exactly how I felt.

You're husband is certainly losing his mind. That much is perfectly clear. This friendship with the OBS is extremely unhealthy and dangerously unhinged behavior. Staying out all night on New Year's Eve, deliberately refusing to contact you, is a form of rebellion. The problem is, of course, is that he's not rebelling against you, but against himself.

He's lost, confused, hurt, angry, unhinged and acting out in very self-destructive ways. I don't think it's uncommon and I certainly don't think it's all your fault. He is still a grown man who has to take responsibility for his own actions and his own decisions in life and it's pretty clear that he's either incapable or unwilling to do that. He's off the rails and doesn't see himself that way. It's denial and avoidance; his issues and he will have to work through them sooner, I hope, rather than later. But it's going to take him time to understand it all. I'd very much like to chat with him, if he ever has the courage or insight to join SI--or a similar board--but that's not likely to happen. He certainly needs to see an IC, at least a few times.

Would it be helpful to sit down with him one day soon and really talk all of this through? Possibly. As a man I can tell you the best time to do this is right after sex (if you still have the energy, that is). It may be a cliché, but there's a lot of truth in the notion that men are most open and honest right after sex.

Tell him you understand how crazy this has made him (even if you really don't), how worried you are about him (without offering advice or opinion), that meeting the OM is the worst thing that's ever happened to you (which I certainly hope is truth), and that you'll do anything at all to repair the damage, to become a better woman, wife and mother (which is not to say you're a bad mother!).

You might be terribly angry with him for staying out all night without so much as a word from him. You might think his behavior is terrible (which it is). But I wonder, are you honestly angered by his behavior, or hurt by it? Either way, I can tell you that expressing your anger will do no good while expressing your hurt will. He might be glad that your in pain over his actions, but I'm pretty sure he won't feel too good about it.

At two months out from discovery I can tell you without much of a doubt that he's only beginning to feel the shock wearing off. Beyond this it's going to get a lot worse. A lot worse! When the anger hits, when the rage hits, I want you to be prepared for a world of hurt. There were times when I seriously ripped my wife to emotional shreds and didn't so much as flinch at my own cruelty. But she took it (as well as she could). She's endured the rollercoaster with as much grace and dignity as she can muster and that spoke louder to me than anything she could have ever said.

I wish you strength and courage, Moondancer. You're going to need it!

Unhinged

[This message edited by Unhinged at 7:52 AM, January 1st (Friday)]

Your husband has gone into a tail spin because of your affair. He's likely not going to listen to any of your suggestions. Even if he understands what he's doing is completely wrong, he feels justified and will blame you for it.

I recommend finding a third party to help him, either one of his own friends or a professional. He needs to be thinking about his legacy and how his actions will be affecting his position in, say, 15 years, when his daughters are graduating, getting married, etc. Planting these questions in him will initiate thoughts about what is best for HIM, now you.

Thank you unhinged. You and husburned always have such great advice. I am so glad I found SI or I may well have already surpassed BH in my mental instability. It is so helpful to have a place to vent and gather advise from people who actually care and understand.

I will continue to do all I can to show BH I am working on myself and fighting for our marriage

I will try once again to show him some of these threads. He just doesn't seem to want any help.

I will try your suggestion of talk after sex. We have conversed a little sometimes but I have been afraid to push it and ruin the good feelings. And yes I am mostly hurt that he didn't let me know he wasn't coming home, or that he made it somewhere safe. Because this was a problem before the affair. He would go out and do whatever he wanted and never come home on time or let me know where he was. He has never understood how much I worry when he is not home. Thinks he's a grown man and I shouldn't worry about him. Oh if only we could control our emotions!!!

Thank you still living. I have tried to gently remind him about the kids, but he just refuses to Hear anything I say. Close friends have tried too. He claims the kids are young enough and will be fine.

BW here....

Im confused. Was he suppose to have the kids last night?

As far as the kids at 5, 3 and 3....Daddy is still out with friends. Although, he does need to start thinking how this affects them. On the other hand... You didnt think of your children. Another curse of being a BS...you have to do things you know your WS didnt do...like think of the kids.

Here is the thing about about being a BS...we are late to the game. WS have had time to justify, be mad at themselves, question themselves, counsel themselves, etc. BS walk into the game in the middle of sudden death with the self inflicted knowledge a victory rides on our shoulders. Thats not true but its what we think at the beginning. AND our team mate has been selling plays to the other team...and giving them the occasional score(pun intended ).

Your ahead of him in processing. You have to come back for him(and I think you are working very hard at that). He is wounded, bleeding, spiralling and hasnt even hit rock bottom yet. He is doing EVERYTHING to avoid feeling the entire pain.

Ex BW here....I'm now divorced.

I just read a few of your old posts and respectfully disagree with some of what I see in terms of feedback you've gotten here and on other posts. I might be confused, but are you guys separated? Has he filed for D? If one of those cases is true, please ignore what I wrote below as it's probably no longer relevant.

The acting out by going out and not communicating a bare minimum is childish and has clearly long been an issue. But the talking to OBS all night? Nope. No. Uh-uh. Absofuckinglutely not. Sorry, but that whole dynamic screams of some fishy stuff happening. I understand there may be some value to the two betrayed spouses communicating to verify stories and ensure ongoing nc between their waywards, but this has clearly gone beyond that.

If you two are still living together and having sex and no one has asked for a divorce, his behavior is totally unacceptable. Unhinged has some amazing insight as usual. The pain and anger are a totally normal reaction to being betrayed, but his disrespect and building a relationship with the OBS are CHOICES and he's making shit choices at the moment.

There is nothing magically moral about being a BS. There are vows to love, honor, and cherish in addition to "forsaking all others". It sounds like he has been disrespecting you and being a negligent father since long before your affair.

You need to decide if you will accept his behavior. He will not change unless he decides to change. If you stay, adjust your expectations accordingly.

I really can not stomach the advice here that I often read that states "The BS gets to do whatever they need to do to heal!" Not saying any posters on this thread has posted that.

I very much agree with ADryHeats post. As I really don't know where you are (reconciling, separated, divorcing, etc.) I don't feel qualified to give you any advice. I do feel the excessive amount of texting with the OBS is inappropriate.

The BS gets to do whatever they need to do to heal!"

Yes, but BSs still do it because they don't know any better. Again, I think somebody needs to talk to this BS about what he's doing to himself, and it needs to come from an outside neutral person. Right now he's in survival mode not trusting the WS so any discussion suggested to him needs to be about what he's doing to himself, ie., and the only thing I can think about that might stop him is his legacy.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Yes you made a mistake. I've read your posts and I see that you are really trying. You are working on you and honestly, that and your children should be your focus.

The relationship your BH has with the other BW is toxic at this point.

Until your BH decides he wants to remain married and actually fix things, you cannot force him.

I've been the BW before and never in all my screw ups did I try to justify it by saying I was dealing with the hurt.

Just my two cents...

((Moondancer)) I don't know how much the relationship with the OBS has progressed, but please don't sleep with him if he is being physical with her.

If you haven't, look into IC for both of you. We all know the pain he is feeling and I am sure most of us thought about RA, so we can understand it to a point. Where I get concerned is that he seems to be taking actions towards making it happen which seems to point to extremely unhealthy coping mechanisms, a form of punishing you, and/or deciding your A was a dealbreaker and he's done.

Also, know that you can have boundaries too and can enforce them. Keep working on yourself for you.

Moondancer,

I'm unclear, has your husband told you he wants a divorce?

(((Moondancer)))....I think you've received some great advice & insight so far. As a BW, I can relate to his hurt & anger and I became an almost crazy person at times! And I have NEVER had a temper nor been as angry as being betrayed made me! (Dday was a little over 2 years ago, but FWH'S A was 25 years prior when I found out.)

I am really concerned that he had these "habits" of staying out all night, not calling you, ect..before your A! IMO, that was just not acceptable! He was a married man with children & responsibilities. Do you think he is now using your A as an excuse to justify this behavior?? What was his excuse before your A?

I agree 100% that a good time to talk honestly & get him to open up is after sex...I've seen it in my own M. However, I believe he also needs to learn to communicate with you at other times as well.

I'm not sure how I'd approach this with him, because everyone is different & you know him better than I do for sure....but, I think you do need to let him know what your boundaries are and you have the right to! My FWH has told me he doesn't think he has the right to tell me if he feels uncomfortable with something I'm doing or setting boundaries with me, and I've told him he does have that right! In fact, it makes me feel more loved by him!

As another poster told you, it IS going to get worse before it's better, as far as his hurt & anger (even rage) goes. My FWH took it all and that spoke volumes to me! And it couldn't have been easy for him...I was down right mean,mean,mean at times!

I know you are both hurting, but if you are to R, it's going to take both of you being in 100%! I hope and pray that will be what happens.

Please keep posting & let us know how it's going!

Thanks for all the advice. Ok answering questions. Yes I am in IC, he refuses to go to any. He has said he is getting a divorce, but is making no effort to move toward it. I currently sleep elsewhere (if I sleep) but spend dinner time and bedtime home with the kids. We have done some time where I have the kids at my parents and he is home alone. But even then sometimes i come home and we talk... The grandparents is not a good place for me to be a mom, cause the kids get confused as to who to Listeb to. If a divorce happens I will eventually need my own place. We barely scrape by now, we will probably not survive a divorce finacially. I have offered mediation for child custody and finances so we don't have to spend lots of money on lawyers. We did the child custody but he has never followed up on the finances.

I believe they are either getting ready to have a RA or they are playing it that way to hurt me. He pretends to not want me to read his text messages, but then leaves his phone where I can access it. They are flirting and talking about meeting up. I want to believe it's to hurt me, but I can't imagine him faking all that. I have already told him that If he felt the need to have sex with other woman to even the score I would still love him and want to R. But I was thinking strangers. Not her. I have been trying to 180 but I love him so much and when he does show me attention I can't ignore him. When he finally came home today I was so relieved he wasn't hurt I cried. He asked why and I told him I had spent all night wondering where he was, if he was hurt. He held my hand and then made love to me. I can't tell him no. But I am going to have to if he is getting with her. I have been very good lately at not looking for things to worry about, focusing on me and the kids. I just can't leave him alone to deal with all the destruction I have caused. I feel I need to help him through it even if it's so he is strong enough to leave me.

We are all sorry that you are having such a hard time with him, but if you keep sleeping with him while complaining about how mean and emotionally abusive he is, it gets harder and harder to be sympathetic. You are letting him do this to you at this point, so stop complaining about his behavior and start doing what you know you need to do!

You need to stop having sex with him until he stops his ridiculous behavior. And if you won't stop that, at least make him use protection until you know without a doubt he isn't sleeping with anyone else.

Hi moon, I think it would likely help a lot to have very clear boundaries with him. He may be confused on where he id/what he wants, but you need to set clear boundaries for your own health and your childrens.

Also, when you are at your parents - set boundaries with them. There should be no confusion on who is your children's parent

I believe they are either getting ready to have a RA or they are playing it that way to hurt me. He pretends to not want me to read his text messages, but then leaves his phone where I can access it. They are flirting and talking about meeting up. I want to believe it's to hurt me, but I can't imagine him faking all that.

Tell him everything you just wrote here. Ask him if intents to have a revenge affair. Ask him if that's really what he wants to do. I've threatened (bluffed!) about having my own revenge affair, asking my wife if that's what she needs to truly understand how this has affected me. She's told me flat out that if that's what I need to heal then so be it. Then... I clearly asked her if she was really okay with that. Do I have your blessing to sleep with another woman? Can you guess what her answer was?

Now is the time, Moondancer, to be completely open and honest with your husband about every thing that's going on in your absolutely crazy lives (it's the same for all of us, btw). Lay it all on the line. Everything...

I'm starting to realize that in almost every single marriage wrecked by infidelity, there is one common, almost universal, theme: they all have terrible communication dynamics.

Early on, our "hard talks" quickly devolved into the same old familiar patterns. I won't go into details, unless you're that curious, but I will say that it didn't take me long to understand that I was going to have to seriously rethink the... manner... in which I conversed with her.

I had to learn to separate my issues from hers. Each of us could say the exact same things, verbatim, and we each process that information differently, based upon our own issues, our own preconceived notions and our respective abilities to empathize with one another. So even the simplest of statements from either one of us had to be consciously tempered, clarified, compared until it was understood. And when you get a visceral reaction to a comment, ask about that reaction and why he feels/thinks the way he does.

The ability to truly listen is a prerequisite of empathy and no one can listen to another until he/she is willing to share, openly, honestly... vulnerably.

You won't like much of what you hear, Moondancer. But one of you is going to have to take a real change here, and, well... like M.J. said: "I'm starting with the Man in the Mirror."