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MrsRB, thanks for posting. As I struggle to understand my WW's bad decisions, her inability to answer the "what was she thinking/feeling when the AP crossed the point of no return?" and "Why the hell did you do that?" questions when she was sneaking around having sex with the AP, which she cannot answer as of yet, I find your post helpful to me. I see much the same struggle within you. It shows in your writing. In addition to the IC, Perhaps the continued posting of your deep thoughts will unlock an answer. Deeply rooted in the brain lies the answer(s), I hope you find them.

I feel like I have to defend RB from all those who are considering his behaviour as cheating or infidelity. For him the marriage is dead. The commitment him and I made to each other was dead the minute I decided to go ahead with my A. He is completely broken and devastated by my actions. His actions are a result of the misery I have brought into his life. As anoldlion put it very rightly, he is not the man he was 4 months ago. I have killed that man, and he might never return. All this is because of what I have done. He told me yesterday that we are just roommates instead of life partners. Having said all that, I don't blame him for his actions. Having sex with the OBS is his way of seeking a little bit of comfort in a horrible time in his life. I don't think that revenge motivates his actions.

Doing a 180, or leaving is out of the question. I am going to fight for him till the very end. Nothing he does or says is going to change that. I am the one who wreaked havoc in his life not the other way around. I don't consider him wayward. Its me who is that.

The fact that he and the OBS are sleeping together hurts very very much, just like the thought of me and my AP must hurt him. I also know that he has already given up on me, and has no faith in my ability to change. He tells me this everyday. I am trying to do everything in my power to prove him wrong, to show him that I truly love him and that I am motivated to change and become the person who will never betray his trust again.

Hopefully, time will become your ally. IF the marriage with RB is truly dead, then it looks like it's up to you to build a new one with him.

If you're hurt by him being with the OBS, let him know (if you haven't). That may be part of what he's looking for. I can understand the idea that it's not purely revenge, that RB may be seeking comfort that is no longer available (in his mind) from you, or that you changed the rules of the marriage, and now he's just following the new rules (and even being more open about it). That being said, I have to think on some level he's trying to strike back, at least a little. Be as available as you can be for him. One thing is to do what you're already doing, changing the rules again. This time you will be faithful and trustworthy, and hopefully he'll eventually follow, but you may have to settle for his current arrangement for a while, and I understand applaud your tenacity - I hope it bears positive results).

I don't know what to advise really. Like always, take note of little successes, make the most of any time periods where you end up together.

You may feel you have a million reasons to say you're sorry (and are trying a million times to say it), but be aware that's no surprise to him now, and (in his mind) may be almost meaningless. There are a few other phrases which may be more effective for now, but they must be timed correctly, and they MUST be sincere:

"Thank you for that"

"I didn't expect that and it means more right now than you can imagine."

"You don't know how much that meant (means) to me after everything. I don't deserve it and I really appreciate it."

"You look (sound, smell, feel) great!!"

"That meant everything!"

etc.

Don't use them unless you can really mean them - It's sincere appreciation for moments you didn't always appreciate in the past . . . not flattery.

Whenever you must say 'I'm sorry' again, perhaps try and add extra reason (and maybe your own creative turn) to it - Examples:

"You're right . . . How could I have thrown away such precious gems for meaningless plastic baubles . . . "

"This was great, how wish I'd valued (or never taken for granted) . . ."

"I'd do anything for just 5 minutes of what I once had . . ."

etc.

There are others with advice and books that I've no doubt can be a lot more helpful in this arena.

Try hard to find things, even little ones, that you can do together. Cook, watch a show or sporting event, clean, whatever. Little steps. Hang in there!!

[This message edited by c24j at 7:23 PM, March 7th (Monday)]

To choose the other BS to get with is about as Freudian as you screwing OM right under his nose while he slept. He's paying you back the best way his subconscious is able to. Based on what you actually did, the anger and hatred you have for him is incredible. I doubt very much that you can just let it go without a lot of therapy. Now that he's loving someone else I have to wonder if it is worth your time and emotional energy to work on your feelings for him.

When you deny my contention that you hate him you are doing so based on what is in your mind today and your memory at the time of your cheating. We can easily twist conscious memories to fit pretty much any narrative. It's your actions that show your feelings toward him at that time. The feelings you harbored subconsciously are as clear as his are right now.

Based on what you actually did, the anger and hatred you have for him is incredible.

When you deny my contention that you hate him you are doing so based on what is in your mind today and your memory at the time of your cheating. We can easily twist conscious memories to fit pretty much any narrative. It's your actions that show your feelings toward him at that time. The feelings you harbored subconsciously are as clear as his are right now.

WOW: Thedrifter. The above sounds incredibly judgmental. I am wondering how you perceive these statements as productive and helpful to a struggling wayward who is trying diligently to work out what she has done,why and what has occurred in her life since she has made such self-derstructive and hurtful decisions.

How is it possible that you actually know what she felt or feels about her husband? She has stated what she is feeling. Who are we to tell her that she is wrong???

I agree never! Thank you for standing up! I've followed this thread and the situation is so sticky, I don't feel I will be of much help, so I keep my two cents to myself.

But as a WW who deeply loves her husband, I can tell you that some, not all, but some find themselves consciously or subconsciously, in their own form of inner conflict. And quite honestly, an A is much more an act of self reflection than the reflection of our BS. I'm not sure if the original poster hated herself prior to or during her A. I don't know her. But I feel confident in saying she likely disliked herself far less than her husband, hate, even. 'You can't love someone until you love you' for lack of a better phrase.

So you know the whole story? Cheating is one thing but the way she did it is telling - as is her BH hooking up with her AP's BW. Extremely vicious by both of them.

How does my feedback help her? She needs to face reality and move on with her life. From what she has posted here I believe she is sorry she hurt him and wishes she could comfort him and take away his pain. I think she has learned a lot and will continue growing. I'd like to see her move on and find someone new. Find a relationship without all of this painful baggage. No one deserves to live in the place she's trapped herself in.

The idea that a woman can truly love her husband and then sleep with another man is impossible for many BH's to accept. Maybe she doesn't hate him & maybe she's not doing it to hurt him but love him? No chance.

[This message edited by theDrifter at 6:48 PM, March 11th (Friday)]

this story doesn't make sense to me.

in all the posts by mrsRB and redbaron neither mention any black out drinking from redbaron before or after mrsRB's affair. it seems too coincidental that the same two people "passed out" over and over again. the "passing out" allowed mrsRB plenty of time to have the affair.

what makes sense?

drugging a drink to make redbaron fall asleep.

it's the only way to guarantee the betrayed spouses sleep. there would be no risk to being caught because the drug would secure redbaron and the other betrayed spouse to sleep. except the night redbaron caught them outside the tent. this night indicates redbaron drank enough of the drug to make him drowsy but did not drink enough of the drug to knock him out cold. mrsRB and her affair partner after having so much success did not question whether or not redbaron consumed enough to put him out.

if i was redbaron i'd ask if:

mrsRB ever drugged redbaron's drink to make him sleep.

if the affair partner ever drugged redbaron's drink to make him go to sleep.

ambien is a common drug used to dope drinks. but there are other drugs that can be slipped into a drink.

if redbaron ever sets up a polygraph, i'd ask questions about being drugged.

since all i have to go on are the posts in this thread and the posts in redbaron's thread i could be wrong. it is quite possible the same two people drank too much over and over again allowing the affair to go on for 3/4 of a year. stranger things have happened.

only mrsRB and her affair partner know the truth.

c24j, thank you for the advise. I truly appreciate it.

TheDrifter, you are right when you say that it is not possible to love your husband, and then sleep with another man. Looking back at my actions, I realise that they are not the actions of someone who loves her husband. Although, when I was having the affair, I never doubted in my mind that I loved TRB. I realise now that that lying to someone, cheating on them, letting another person into the marriage is not loving someone. However, certainly I donot hate him like you have pointed out. Sad as it is, now that I stand to lose him, I realise how much he means to me and how much I truly love him. I will do anything to prove this to him. I will not give up without a fight.

hearthurts this statement of yours is so true and something I feel is at the root of my behaviour: "You can't love someone unless you love yourself" I have struggled with low self esteem all my life, never considering myself good enough and always comparing myself to others. Hating myself actually. Looking for praise, validation, an ego boost from anywhere. I'm working on this in my IC amongst other things. I have been reading a lot, on this forum and elsewhere.

The one thing that becomes clearer to me with each passing day is the pain that TRB is going through. It is extremely devastating to see him go through life a shell of his former self. I love him so much and it kills me to know that I have sucked out the happiness and joy from his life. I hope and pray that one day he is able to move on from this, with or without me, and find his former self again. In the meantime, I continue to work on myself everyday to become a better person.

Sounds like you are making great progress.

Keep at it. Take care of yourself. Do good and healthy things for yourself physically and for your marriage.

I don't think we can show love much in our actions to others without developing some within and for ourselves first. Not in selfishness, but in wisdom.

To eat more healthy, which I struggle with. Too move more, to find and express my creative side develops my spirituality, which is far more intimate than religion.

Dig deep, journal in safe place, pour out the dark and add the light.

Just thinking good thoughts will not change much, but acting towards myself and my mate in more loving and authentic ways changes EVERYTHING!

[This message edited by Brass Tacks at 3:58 AM, March 12th, 2016 (Saturday)]

MRB, I'm a BS, and I have to say that the thought of a revenge affair was brought up. Out of hurt, anger, shock I was nowhere in his thoughts, etc. But the truth is, I would never because I don't hate myself. After my WHs affairs, I questioned myself, my worth, my attractiveness, my value, everything, but I am secure in those things, so an affair was never an option for me.

Even though I didn't witness my husband's physical affair, part of the story is that it was with my BFF of 28 years. The pain alone that she could do that to me, let alone him was heartbreaking and I'm still in deep shock. Terrible pain. I lost the two people closest in this world to me, other than my children. I honestly lost my footing in this world and questioned everything.

In the end, though, it always comes back to how I feel about me. I don't hate myself. Period. RB can hate everything you've done, and still not hate himself over this. If he does internalize your actions into hating himself, he needs IC to work through that. Things can have a way of changing us, but with the right tools it doesn't have to. I hope that RB can find a way back to the man he was before this all happened. You have to be prepared to give the marriage up though. Don't stay out of guilt. It's true two wrongs don't make a right, they just make a much bigger shitstorm to wade through.

Best of luck!