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Jaded, burned out, tired and exhausted. Had anyone to deal with those feelings? I'm feeling jaded with relationships, I think I'm losing or even have already lost my faith in (romantic) love, in fact I'm jaded with so many things that I could go on and on and write a whole thread about what makes me feel jaded with. It's almost 6 month (of hard work) since I've joined SI and 3.5 years altogether. So, I think this is my main obstacle right now. There is indeed a lot of progress but also this one major setback. I want to explain it.

My FW-wife doesn't give me any reason to feel so and in my opinion it's something that essentially happened to me due to my exposure to the nature of the issues I have to deal with (the more I work on them and myself). It's not only the painful but futile nature of everything that is relevant in this context. In a previous post I said that the collective somehow affects the personal (or interpersonal) but while it might be true now I think that it's the essence that interferes with the personal and that essence is what prompted these changes in my perceptions. I somehow feel that without my knowledge and consent I was programmed into believing something that is unreal or true and to never questioning it. And now the bubble has exploded; it vanished into thin air

The sad thing is that the more I work trough it, the negative feelings I had towards my wife dissipate and I'm able to replace them again with positive ones while in every other aspect it just increases. So, in a way every "progress" on the personal level is negated and annulled by the other aspects. I don't question her intentions, her honesty, her authenticity anymore, but the more I realize the above in myself, I wonder if this is valid to my wife too (actually for every human being) so that on the practical level we're fighting a lost battle, a war that we never can win. I do not doubt her but there are doubts if that's possible or worse than this is true. It's even not the concept of reconciliation that I question but the whole concept of love.

In a way for the first time in my life I'm asking my self if I shouldn't give up and throw in the towel, not only with this certain relationship but categorically with all of them. Not from the place of hate but from the place of love. Not from the place of resentment but that of gratitude. If at the beginning I had problems to give her everything I don't have that problem and mind it at all. If the above is not the truth, shouldn't I seek the truth and what my heart so seeks.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 1:17 AM, May 26th (Thursday)]

Dude....I know this spot.....not all together done visiting it, either.

Couple thoughts of encouragment....

I think I'm losing or even have already lost my faith in (romantic) love, in fact I'm jaded with so many things that I could go on and on and write a whole thread about what makes me feel jaded with.

You can have knowledge, or you can have faith....but you can't have both on the same topic.

Trials affect faith....they either discover it, kill it, or grow it. You decide....but faith is a choice.

I have faith that someday I will know intimacy like I never knew before. How? Because I am changing and growing in ways I never thought possible! I have uncovered wounds I never knew existed and am healing! I don't KNOW what the future holds, but I have faith its better than my past because I am better. Still....I have no gurantees. Certainly, my wifes choices hurt me deeply.....have done their dead level best to harden my heart and jade me. But its not going to.

I, like you, survived DD.....the weapon of mass destruction was invited into our home and detonated by our wives. That sucks _ss. It hurts like a b_tch. I know this pain.....but I know it didn't kill us.

Trials don't so much define us as they reveal who we really are.

At the very least, hang onto faith that things do change. You don't know the future. You, like I, did the best we could in a M where our wives engaged in patterns that eventually included adultery. Could we have seen this coming? No. Not with what we knew and our own dysfunction blocking our vision.

Love?

Best definition I have come across that speaks to my reality is;

Love = Truth + Grace and mercy.

For most of my adult life I was all about "grace and mercy" and very light on "truth". Turns out, I adopted this pattern in my childhood. During THIS trial I uncovered sexual abuse in my boyhood.....a summer I called "weird" and jokingly referred to as "my drug years" cause I couldn't remember that period in my life was actual abuse\neglect\abandonment. Too painful for a boy to handle, so I didn't....I avoided the truth.

Post my discovery of my wifes affair I was tempted to go "all truth" and "no grace and mercy"....which is just brutality. I was tempted because my CoD (all grace and mercy) pattern of living wound up being horribly destructive to me.....and it wasn't a loving thing to engage in with my wife.

Pain sucks.

This trial is the most painful I have ever experienced. But that pain has opened doors that I needed to open and go through.

Now that I see the wounds of my childhood I can and am healing from them.

I see the wounds my wifes choices inflicted on me now too....and am healing.

I AM CHANGING.

You are too.

Right now you are contemplating if you can change enough to come out of this a better man. Yes. Yes you can.

Change occurs when the pain of same exceeds the pain of change.

IF you think "well, I'll just give up on love. I don't need this pain. I can live all by myself".......well, that is a lie.

We are made to connect.

Trials such as this, sexual abuse, neglect, abandonment, rejection, addiction, etc...all tempt us to believe the lie that "if I don't connect, I won't get hurt"

That is a bald-faced lie. We NEED others in our lives to love us. We NEED others to see truths we can't see for ourselves and get us to see them with tons of grace and mercy in the process.

This....THIS is what I have faith I will experience sometime in my life with a woman. Right now I have faith that is my FORMERLY wayward wife. I have very little facts from her to base that faith on.....but I have witnessed enough shifting to know she is choosing better.

We are both committed to living with integrity.....integrating ALL of life, pain and joy.

Its okay to get tired. We are also designed for periods of rest. Rest in a hobby, rest in your kids, rest in books, prayer, walks in nature.....whatever recharges your heart, stimulates your desire.

BIG BIG BIG part of this is to engage real life men in your life.....share these less than heroic feelings. Share your weakness.....invite others in. You will see......when you invite others in, they can support you like you've never felt before.

I feel your pain....your exhaustion. Your trials are uniquely yours but are not unique.

You are not alone.....and you are stronger than you think. Don't give up.....you owe it to yourself to keep hope alive.

Hope to the soul is like breath to the body.

Oh hell, you have gotten to the...I have to do something stage.

I gave it all to him, his shit, his betrayal. His..His...his..... ...

Well, there came a time when it was me. I had to do the work. I had to deal or not deal with what had happened.

I think you are there. I think it is all swimming about in your mind and it is easier to hang on to the fish than pulling in the line.

Is it now time for you to do your work of reconciliation? Or demise of the relationship? Time to accept or move on.

That time came for me and I drew some hard lines in the sand for my spouse. He stood up to the plate. Can she? Have you ever pressed her to know?

You are a spock..like your tag. But do not let your intellectual mind forget that if it is love your want, then it is love your have to give. It may not save this relationship, but it might be what you really want.

Blakesteele may have diagnosed your problem. Let me offer an alternative (not necessarily instead of) that may help, especially when you put it together with your experience and with what blake said.

You might have to write off the first 3 years as essentially lost. IOW, it feels like 3.5 years of work, but only the last 6 months have been effective, so you are really exhausted, because you've done a lot of work, but the first 3 years weren't all that effective.

I had a teacher once, Chinese history. He lamented that he spent 3 years learning Chinese on his own and then found he had taught himself a lot of wrong stuff - lots of effort, bad results. If this is what happened, I'm really sorry. (The teacher, though, was a real .... well, IMO, it couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy....)

Solid responses by other SI members....and those responses reminded me of that temptation I experienced.

To give up on desire, to remove my heart even further from the equation, to live through my mind. All FEEL like the right, mature thing to do. After all, was it not DESIRE within a heart that led your wife to adultery?

That's all flawed logic. The mind is not pure, we are not Vulcans. We are humans and are designed to connect.

The heart is full of desire....it's the birthplace of all things created. The mind is needed but so is the heart.

The desire to connect is strong. Adultery was the MINDS choice in how to respond to the desire of the heart. In your wife's mind, in my wife's mind, it was far safer (more logical) to commit adultery then to chance and try for REAL intimacy within the M. That's not a heart-choice, it was a mind-choice.

The heart desires REAL intimacy....the mind will settle for false-intimacies and try to deceive the heart into believing it's "real". If that doesn't work, one can choose to ignore the heart and do what the mind FEELS is right.

Adultery is senseless. To search for logic in it is to try and find logic in the most illogical. Yet, our wives choose it. My wife still struggles to uncover what's in her heart.....she's breaking a lifelong pattern of IGNORING her heart. She sees the truth about her affair.....it was more of the same. Ignoring her heart, operating in her mind and believing all sorts of lies her mind told her.

Something in your wife's past, in my wife's-past caused them to largely remove their hearts from relationships. Something traumatically painful.

Don't let this happen to you.

Change is upon you. Don't run from it and hide out in your mind. Embrace it and let your hearts desire be known....at least to you right now. It's painful....but to ignore it is to live a less than full life.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:03 AM, May 26th (Thursday)]

Here you wrote:

I question but the whole concept of love.

but in your signature line you quoted...

The spirit of self-sacrifice creates trust in the power of love

One of the key tenets of survival, from the 12 keys in my profile story...

6. Be a Rescuer, Not a Victim

Want to experience love? Rescue somebody. Donate blood. Volunteer at the SPCA. Tutor at the elementary school. Pick up trash along the highway. I do ski patrol, and we help tired, frozen, injured people. Every little effort when you do this is an act of love.

Cheers!

[quote]@blakesteele:

Change is upon you. Don't run from it and hide out in your mind. Embrace it and let your hearts desire be known....at least to you right now. It's painful....but to ignore it is to live a less than full life.[/quote]

Your posts continue to bring light and hope.

I've been feeling the same way. I know change is coming. I feel an urge to RUN! But I'm staying and I know, whatever comes, I can handle it and live more authentically and more intentionally. And finally it's ok to let my heart's desires be know! ♥

I think you so much, BlakeSteele, for your work here on SI.

♫ ♫ I was born by the river in a little tent

Sam Cooke - A Change Is Gonna Come Lyrics | MetroLyrics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nua5klb4Os

(Al Green)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6YCxXQ6Scw

(The Queen - Aretha Franklin)

HoP

Thanks for your post. I don't question the whole concept of love but very specifically the one of ROMANTIC love. I used a poor choice of words and it caused this misunderstanding. You gave some excellent examples and this is why I more and more begin to think that this whole fallacy of romantic love might plain and simple be a delusion. I'm not angry anymore at her because it's my problem that I couldn't recognize this delusion in first place. If there is anger, it is or it should be directed towards my-self, not her. She didn't put a gun to my head when I envisioned that kind of life, when I decided that I want to have a relationship and to marry. I also agree with you about the importance of moving on from the position of a victim to a survivor. It's crucial to healing. It's paramount!

It's also sad! Decades of investment, emotional and otherwise, went down the drain in one single night. Look, I'm not afraid of being hurt again. If there's suffering that's inevitable than I'll accept it! Yet, if I can avoid the pain, so yes, I don't want it and I don't need more of it. Whether we want it or not, life presents more than enough of painful opportunities to learn and to grow. I don't see why I need to add some more to this if I can avoid the additional stuff. So, I'll give up on romantic love and concentrate on other aspects that you mentioned, that constitute and contribute to true love. I think I might be looking for happiness in the wrong place and this is MY PROBLEM, not hers. Once again, it's not a definite conclusion or decision I have taken. However, it's also not something that I can so lightly dismiss anymore. Yes, I'm heartbroken and I want to protect my heart from unnecessary pain!

[This message edited by MrSpock at 10:27 AM, May 26th (Thursday)]

I agree, we are made to connect..

But I know what you are saying...

I am also jaded in regards to marriage..

My mom (who had been a widow for 20 years after her 30 year marriage), found new love... Very LATE in life, in her 70's...

Mom never married this gentleman because of financial concerns ( his medical insurance, social security, etc)..But their HEARTS were definitely into each other..They had 10 good years together before he died..

IMHO true love doesn't mean one should be required to have so much faith in his or her prospective spouse as to give up an exit plan / fallback plan for self preservation.. I would beware of anybody who asked me to..

I'm convinced that I am not required to get LEGALLY entangled with someone to experience LOVE and INTIMACY.....

On a spiritual level my vows are ironclad.With that said, I won't suffer abuse to stay with somebody I made vows to..

I can share my thoughts and feelings, interests, but at this stage of life, I don't want to share my home with a man on a daily 24-7 basis..

At this point in time I want to grow, be a better person .. Once I extricate myself from my situation, I will be excited to have the experience of living on my own for a long while, if not for the rest of my life..

Doesn't mean partners can't come and go from my life..

Simply that I can't let lying/cheating ruin my WAY of life any more..

I am much too old to have to risk or sacrifice a newly built life to feel romantic love with someone..I will pick people who don't ask that of me or be on my own..

I can no longer afford to circle the drain in a physical and financial way because my spouse cheated and spent all of the marital funds doing it..I am much too old to have to give up 1/2 of my retirement (The WH has none) to extricate myself from this marriage, unfortunatly that is what I am looking at..

I think we can experience any kind of love we want (on our terms) if we let ourselves...

So yep, I may or may not be jaded as well...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 10:54 AM, May 26th (Thursday)]

You might have to write off the first 3 years as essentially lost. IOW, it feels like 3.5 years of work, but only the last 6 months have been effective, so you are really exhausted, because you've done a lot of work, but the first 3 years weren't all that effective.

Sisoon

We disagree quite a lot! However, I do agree with you on this one. I think you have a good point here and among others the lost three years might have contributed to these feelings of exhaustion as well. As I already said, it's not a definite conclusion or decision I have taken. I'm still working on it and want us to work it out. However, it's also not something that I can so lightly dismiss anymore.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 10:38 AM, May 26th (Thursday)]

Thanks doggiediva

We share very similar views and I found your post helpful. I just maybe differ from you in that I begin to think that all kind of romantic relationships should be avoided. Long term, short term, casual, committed, marriage and otherwise if I missed something! I think it's not worth the risk and the potential losses exceed the benefits.

We are made to connect.

I agree with this too. However, I disagree with the assumption that true connection and intimacy is rooted in desires whether they stem from heart or mind which is another discussion. It is this conventional truth that I chased myself for decades without challenging it. Yet, today I'm convinced that desires are the root of suffering! Chasing desires does not bring happiness but suffering. In my opinion our need to connect is rooted in compassion (as a response to suffering and the need to ease it - both for ourselves and others). Therefore, for me true love is the embodiment of values as compassion, gratitude, wisdom, truth, altruism and kindness. This is the opposite of desires and therefore I think that true love and desires are an oxymoron. In the light of those virtues it is also how I see marriage. It should be the place where either those values are expressed or at least cultivated.

And to connect (as HOP said) we don't need to do it in a romantic way and there are a lot of more healthy ways to contribute to people and society. In my opinion if a person is asked to connect with other by risking additional and unnecessary pain that can easily be avoided it merely points to fear of being alone (=fear of loneliness). Personally I'm not afraid of it and at least my best friend, the mind (and heart) that I worked and am working to purify will never abandon me. Yes, the contaminated mind can be our worst enemy, but the purified is our best ally. Second, as HOP showed not being married is not really being alone – that's most probably another delusion we are fed with. To be happy I don't need a woman. I can be very happy on my own. I do want that connection if it is not counter-productive to my happiness and can even contribute to more. Yet, if it increases the unnecessary risk of being hurt than I'm not in this game anymore. I am not going to risk and jeopardize my happiness again.

So, if a marriage does not cultivate or exhibit those values than it is worthless in my mind! This is where my doubts about romantic love and reconciliation kick in. There was also grace and mercy that were mentioned above and as you see I intentionally didn’t mentioned them here. Why? Because grace and mercy are a one way attitude! It is granted by one person to the other and when excluded from the equation it violates the equation (of love) itself. For me all of the above attitudes as love, kindness, compassion and gratitude include both of the parties in the equation. Therefore, I see it as true love. If both of the parties are not included, then I don't think it is true love and therefore in my opinion mercy and grace are not so compatible with it. Again, that's where my doubts kick in.

Now, having that said, I assume that the follow up question would be how this kind of thinking is compatible with a marriage that also includes the romantic aspect of love (=sex). If a marriage could be based on the above attitudes than I see here no problem! For me sex is about a temporarily release of suffering and the experience of happiness in this context. It is granted not only to ourselves but our partner as well and therefore (remember the above) it comes from a place of love as spiritual emotional connection (through body and mind) as well as from the place of compassion (as response to suffering). Once we experience that kind of happiness through sex, desire is there. Yet, it's not the emphasis; if you want it's a byproduct. And it's also some kind of a middle path between chasing desires and suppressing them. At the end this is why for me infidelity is the worst and the ultimate type of betrayal and this is why it keeps me from doing this. It leads and brings me to the realization that even if I will satisfy my desires it will still create and contribute to my suffering as well as that of everyone else (including the AP herself). So, you see, while theoretically romantic love could be part of love, the question is also if it's practical. Here is where I have my doubts. And this is only one very small aspect that can be worked out and I gave as example.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:51 PM, May 27th (Friday)]

I think romantic relationships are a trap and a nightmare to deal with if one's partner is selfish and/ or has an entitled mindset..And has jealousy problems..

In my case I was manipulated to feel guilty for wanting and needing space and time for myself...After working 12 hour shifts at a demanding/stressful full time job..

My WH on the other hand was very very needy for sex and control...Of me and my day to day activities...Never again will I let another relationship smother me to this degree....

IMHO if the romantic relationship is good, it adds to life..

So long as both partners feel loved and respected and not exploited...

IMHO there has to be a reasonable balance of space vs intimacy, neither partner should feel abused or controlled..

I know it is very possible for me live the rest of my life without a romantic partner...

In fact I think I will prefer it...

I have enough of my own problems..

Marriage can be one of the quickest ways to inherit another person's set of problems and bad reputation...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 8:32 AM, May 27th (Friday)]

Yet, today I'm convinced that desires are the root of suffering! Chasing desires does not bring happiness but suffering.

A lot of truthiness there, my friend. to want and not have is to suffer, at least a little.

Marriage can be one of the quickest ways to inherit another person's set of problems and bad reputation.

Nice...

Sorry, but I think my comment is true for many people..

You know that saying" The apple doesn't fall far from the tree"?

Lets take the news story of the subway sandwich man..Jared or whatever his name as an example..

Anyway, I was reading the Facebook comment thread attached to a news article about him... Soon after he was arrested and jailed..

Some of these idiot troll's comments were placing blame for his behavior on the wife's shoulders too...Saying that she should be jailed right along with him..These people were assuming, without any facts, that the wife was into the same activities as he..That she knew about his activities..That she was complicit..Just because she was married and living with him..

Marry a bad person, stay married to him/her and watch your life go straight down the drain with his or hers..

Sure, marriage to the right person has many benefits....But apparently not all of our spouses continue to be a good and healthy match for us for life...

Or these boards wouldn't exist...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 10:05 AM, May 27th (Friday)]

DD

Completely correct. Yet, it is not only the selfishness and entitlement that you mentioned; normally it also comes along with manipulation, blame shifting and gas lighting. It is also true not only as in regard to affairs; it's validity is true to each and every aspect of relationships.

As I said, decades of investment, emotional and otherwise, went down the drain. I did more than my fair share in any relationship. Not only with my current WW wife but in any relationship prior to this one. I was not cheated on in the other relationships, but I was indeed taken advantage in them too. You can see it in my profile. I was not only providing well; I did more than my fair share at home, while still working and providing; I was always present and emotionally there; sexually also put her needs prior to mine. Did it help me to be treated differently? No! What did I get in return. An investment of decades that went down the drain and infidelity.

So, yes, I am jaded with relationships. Not specifically mine but in general and see the concept of romantic love as potentially deluded. Why? Because as I said I have no control over pain and suffering that life presents (and that can help me to learn and grow), but I do have control over the additional, unnecessary and spin off pain that relationships bring. However, on the other side when it comes to relationships, I do have control and choice, I don't need to participate in them. And I can replace romantic relationships with others that would be beneficial for me.

I am jaded with relationship because from my experience it really does not matter what you do for your spouse, you won't see anything from them in return. Not only that you won't see anything in return but sometimes you'll even be blamed for not doing enough. Worse then this every smal and insignificant shortcoming that every one has will be put on your shoulders to blame you for their affairs and demand you to "change". As you say, with an entitled and selfish partner like this it's rather doesn't matter, you are taken for granted, as if you were born to serve them, or it will never be enough. Then you'll be threatened and punished by their affairs. As standing opposed to relationships and such selfish partners, there are so many people that need my help (not only the financial one) and that would appreciate it. HOP mentioned a few of them. And most importantly I can choose the ones that are worthy of my help. So, yes, I do want to protect my heart from unnecessary pain and see no problem in it.

At this stage in my life I do seriously contemplate to go my own way. If I do, I'll give my FWW everything. That's my decision. When I'll rebuild my self financially I will choose the ones that are worthy of my resources, it most probably will not be any romantic partner. I have also a lot of non material resources and support to give the world. Again, most probably not to a romantic partner anymore. I also want to work on myself and my self growth. I want to grow spiritually. I have returned to my spiritual roots and plan to deepen my practice. I want to volunteer and do a lot of stuff. Many things that if I'll choose to do in a relationship I'll be blamed not to do "enough", not to "help", not to be "present" or asked to "change" and work on my "issues" (although it extremely selfish to expect the partner to focus solely on you and annihilate himself and those "issues" are nothing but normal issues that exist in every marriage). So, if this is the case, then relationships seem to be a prison for me and living my own life, going my own way, is the path of freedom, the path of liberation.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 12:14 AM, May 28th (Saturday)]

Mr Spock, with what you write about your feelings, if I were you, I would go your own way...

I do not think anything but a miracle will change how you feel about your marriage at this point in time..

Not without the drastic change of leaving it for awhile if not permanently...

You are a blessing to so many...Give yourself permission to do what it takes to focus on your own growth....

[This message edited by doggiediva at 3:40 PM, May 27th (Friday)]

DD

I'm sorry in advance but this will include a rant about the situation. I must admit there is some dissonance between what's going on in my marriage and what I learn about the nature of relationships around me. I am talking not only about the online stuff but especially the real life examples. On the one side, it's why I'm having doubts; on the other side, I know there is truth to what I'm saying that pervades all of these things. It does not restrict itself anymore to the issues of infidelity but also in regard to everything else. The more I see what happens around me (as well as looking at all my relationships) I start more and more to believe that relationships are a bluff, a cruel joke.

I must admit there was a strong trigger the day prior to me posting this thread that caused me to write about those thoughts and feelings of mine. Due to the SI rules I can't post the link so here the short version of the story. It was about a post written by a woman that is a marriage and couple councilor. She's mid 30 and married with children. Specialized in infidelity. According to her story she's non monogamous and so is the relationship with her husband. This of course has not prevented her from cheating on him while she proudly announced how great that experience is and how she feels alive betraying her husband.

She also wrote what an amazingly good looking, caring, nice and decent man her husband is. He provides, is taking care of the children, cares for her needs, emotionally and sexually, and doing everything right. Yet, she's not attracted and is bored with him. As a councilor she thinks this is the reason why women cheat and she's fine with it. She also stated that she believes people (especially men) need to hear this truth even if they don't like it and it is hard. With this she means of course the BS audience that must hear the hard truth not the WS. It's the BS that must change not the WW spouse. She told that she denied her husband sex for months, couldn't get enough from her AP and when husband was upset about the lack of sex she blamed him for all the problems, looked to find faults and made his life a hell. And the biggest hypocrisy? When another woman was interested in her husband, she was jealous and acting accordingly

To see the comments made by women to support her views were horrible. It was both mind blowing as well as an eye opener. To see the hate, the disrespect, the disdain there towards their husbands made me feel sick to the stomach. Yet, I was and am not angry about it. It is always better to know the hard and ugly truth than to dwell in sugar coated fairy tales. And it was another nail in the coffin of the so called romantic love. It shows me how hypocritical is all the stuff that we are not there, not helping enough, not supportive enough, not giving enough, not attentive enough and so on which is a complete bullshit. According to their own statements their husbands were perfect, yet it was still not enough. Again, I'm even not angry with the OP as she at least said as all of of her commenters the truth and put down the mask, but I'm angry, disappointed and disillusioned with romantic relationships which for some reason are still defined as "love". I'm also maybe angry with myself not seeing this truth soon enough to prevent the heart ache

It's sad, but having read that stuff, which triggered me hard, and I know it sounds awful but I said to my self that yes the saying "no wife better life" (found it somewhere on the web) is true. I'm sorry to say it and apologize in advance, I know there's plenty of asshole men outside there too but I'm talking from my perspective and I'm fucking fed up with this shit. For me relationships seems to become a poisonous swamp where my soul is going to be killed and die in an ocean of suffocating hate and exploitation. I'm just feeling used and exploited and therefore have enough. It is like one more nail in the coffin of the so called "love". For me all of this stuff is not love it's abuse and opportunism.

The relevance of those questions is far more reaching then the questions of infidelity itself. What happens in the relationship when I decide to seek the yearnings of my heart, the one I pushed back to make my woman, the woman of my life, happy. Will I be blamed for the above, will I be punished, will it be a different punishment if not infidelity of course. You see, those questions are the ones about my own realization. While I don't want to hurt my WW wife that has gone beyond any expectations of a remorseful spouse, it is now the question about my realization as a human, as a man and as a spiritual being on the other hand. That's my conflict.

So, while I don't want to hurt my WW wife I'm not sure I can realize myself in a relationship - in any relationship not only the current one. The reasons are the ones mentioned above. As you mentioned I also thought about a temporary termination but I indeed am no more sure it will help. As you say I also feel as if it is only a miracle that could change my feelings and realizations. Most probably as you stated it's about a permanent termination. Yet, I'm going to discuss it with my wife. I don't want to make a one sided decision. I know me leaving will devastate her and maybe it will soften the blow. Anyway, I owe her this discussion. I only know that this for itself can't stop and prevent me from seeking my truth and happiness. When I will have this discussion with her I will know more and than I will have to make decisions.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:42 AM, May 28th (Saturday)]

Definitely have the discussion..

As nice or kind as your WW may be to you, she should be aware that you are feeling this way...Whether or not your situation and feelings change, she needs to know the far reaching consequences of her actions..

For her own spiritual growth..

I realize that you see your WW as remorseful..With that said, she may not see beyond the immediate damage that she caused to you and other loved ones around her ..

I don't think many people have it in them to face the true extent of the damage they caused with their lies... Damage that is so massive, it is felt by the whole family for generations..

No wonder many of us feel so jaded...We put in a lifetime of effort, savings, emotion into our marriages, thinking that someday we will live the dream we want..Spend our elder years with a companion to travel and do other things with ..We were taught to do this by our parents and their parents..

In reality, I am looking at divorce and financial poverty in my 60's after a lifetime of service to others.....I will have to pay this price to get my self respect back...

I live in no fault state...So I am the one being left to pay (with my way of life) for a mess my WH made..The law only recognizes that which is seen on paper..

Ugggggghhhhhhh

[This message edited by doggiediva at 8:09 AM, May 28th (Saturday)]

Just wanted to share a quote:

There is no safe investment. To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket – safe, dark, motionless, airless – it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation. The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.

C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves

I love the Lewis "Four Loves" quote...

I love love...

Tragedy I have dealt with..Tragedy comes as often as joy..

Being completely safe physically, emotionally is a myth, I know that..

I do agree with the Lewis quote, somewhat...My words below will explain what it means to me...

My life is pretty difficult for the moment..That is why I feel kind of jaded..But the jaded feeling comes and goes..I also get heavy doses of feeling grateful.....

I am looking to change my day to day life..

I have to disagree about there being no safe investment..Safe investments or rather the SAFEST investments are those which we make in ourselves..If we can TEACH what we have learned, we are investing in the future...Our own and the futures of those we teach...

As beat down as I feel in the moment, I have some faith in people (in general) and in the future.. Things always change whether or not we plan for or want them to...

I can lock myself in this house to prevent myself from getting deadly snakebites...sunburns, being hit by a car, etc..

For all the good the above does, I may

fall from standing next time I get up from this couch and suffer a brain bleed... Die in my sleep from some mystery ailment..

Ya never know..

There is NO WAY we can control EVERYTHING that gets thrown at us...To the degree that we let other people's choices affect our lives the more we give up our own control..

Locking ourselves away from the hazards of love and the world doesn't guarantee safety..Behind closed doors we will still wrinkle, mold, mildew and die..

But there is such a thing as taking measures to be safe ENOUGH..Being REASONABLY safe..Physically and emotionally...

I hate to say it, but IMHO, much of our happiness is based on how secure we perceive ourselves to be.. Our ability to get our next meal..Our ability to find rest in a place that is pleasant and safe..Our ability to be around people who care about us..We are happier if we have some degree of faith that our pleasant experiences will be repeat performances..Then can we find the energy to look for somebody to share our lives with..

There is nothing jaded in taking measures to prevent a spouse/prospective spouse from being able to take us to the cleaners if he/she lies and cheats

I don't see it as "bitter or jaded " if somebody is too burned out / tired to bother with marriage ..It's all very personal...

I know and love plenty of old and wise/happy people who are living happier more fulfilling lives without a spouse...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 11:33 AM, May 28th (Saturday)]