SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There is no safe investment. To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket – safe, dark, motionless, airless – it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation. The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.

SIC

Thanks for the quote. I will talk immediately about the tricky part of the quote but I want to say that I do not reject it completely. There is a lot of truth to the quote and I want to explain first where I can relate to it so you can see that I understand the complexity of my situation and I do not act heedlessly. So, where do I draw the line here between what is a true and legitimate and what is false and incorrect? The answer is that when it comes to all type of love that is not romantic I will embrace the quote almost as it is. Yet, when it comes to romantic love this quote misses completely the point in my opinion.

There is no safe investment.

First of all, even if we assume that it is true then there is still a big difference in the degree of risk we take. It's like the difference between gambling all of our money in the casino and taking a calculating risk in your business. This is also called risk management and there is a whole field of study how to do it properly. Besides of this and actually as a part of it, there is also a varying degree of control when it comes to the exposure to hurt in a none-romantic relationship and lack of almost any control in the relationships that are romantic ones. It has to do again with a varying degree of how, where, when and who is the beneficiary that profits from you investment and help. And most importantly when it comes to none romantic relationships this is the kind of unavoidable suffering and pain of life that I mentioned above and you can't prevent while a romantic one you certainly can. And most importantly I'm not into shutting my heart to all types of love but specifically the romantic one which I'm even not sure anymore that is truly love.

So, yes, in such a case it's about acceptance, wisdom, love and compassion - by the way not only towards the others but especially towards oneself. We can't prevent that type of hurt and therefore we have to meet this inevitable pain of life, both with wisdom as well as with (self) love and compassion. Yet, because we stubbornly refuse to avoid the pain inflicted on us in romantic relationships which at least to a certain degree in my opinion demonstrates a type of self-hate or self-loathing (that negates any aspect of kindness) there is in my opinion no love involved in such an action – neither towards oneself nor others. Having that said, personally I don't believe that there is no safe investment. The safest investment is that in our self and the purification of our own minds and hearts and as it seems to me today, romantic relationships tend to be counter-productive for this goal.

Furthermore, I know and grew with those notions that "love hurts". However, "love does not hurt and it does not betray. IMHO, that's an oxymoron. Love in fact is compassionated, it is selfless, it is caring, it is kind, it is grateful and it is wise as well as truthful and authentic. And it so not only to others but yourself as well! So, if there's something that hurts it's not love but something different. Is in hate, is it anger, is it resentment? Well, it can be many things and it's still not enough to answer the question whatever it is. Why? Because romantic love or hate, anger, resentment or whatever it is have a common denominator, namely fears, attachments, desires, craving and many more. And this is the opposite of true love. I'm sorry but I'm not into the self-hate and abuse of offering the other cheek, saying that it's raining when someone's spitting all over me. If something bad, even a tragedy or abuse already happened and you can't prevent it then, yes, you should meet it with love and compassion as hate is not something that can erase what the deed and change the past; yet, if you can prevent it but don't do it (motivated by love not hate) then you are not loving to yourself (and thus to others) and the whole concept of love in this context is in my opinion deluded. Loving and respecting others begin with respecting and loving one-self. The idea that we should accept any kind of abuse in the name of "love" is highly uncaring, highly uncompassionated and highly unloving. IMHO, it's delusion.

lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness.

This is a complete misunderstanding. Here what I wrote about my plans:

At this stage in my life I do seriously contemplate to go my own way. If I do, I'll give my FWW everything. That's my decision. When I'll rebuild my-self financially I will choose the ones that are worthy of my resources, it most probably will not be any romantic partner. I have also a lot of non material resources and support to give the world. Again, most probably not to a romantic partner anymore. I also want to work on myself and my self growth. I want to grow spiritually. I have returned to my spiritual roots and plan to deepen my practice. I want to volunteer and do a lot of stuff.

That's exactly the opposite of what the quote states and someone who's not willing anymore to throw his money and resources away on a romantic partner that will potentially cheat on him or maybe hurt you in another unimaginable way but spending this money and resources on someone who's much more deserving is not selfish. Not at all! So, you might think now that I've already made a decision and am done with the marriage. This is not true because otherwise I would have already filed. As I said above I want to see if it's still possible to do this and realize myself in the marriage and for this purpose I'm going to discuss it with my wife. However, this is how I feel and thinking right now and I'm indeed jaded with relationships, am fed up, exhausted, tired and burned out. It's with romantic relationship not with life and humanity as a whole. I think that no matter how good people are, romantic relationships as it seems to me today bring out the worse of them. I tend to believe that it is even not true love. I do hope that having that conversation with my wife she can prove me wrong. I truly wish so.

I have Pm'd you but I also wanted to respond to the thread. I think what you need to do first is define what "love" is. Then look at your expectations of that definition and see if it is authentic and realistic. IMO "true love" Nicholas Sparks romantic book shit doesn't exist and sets many people up for disappointment and failure. How can anyone live to that type of love's expectations? I am not a religious man, but I am not uneducated in religion. I believe if you were a Christian the only perfect love that you are seeking exists only with God. Are you having trouble accepting human failure? You have high moral values and expectations. So does my wife. She struggled with this greatly. I think she talked to Blakesteele about this a lot. Hopefulmother is her handle. Maybe I can get her to post. She got past this, but she got a ton of support and guidance. Her faith had a huge part of it.

Love = Truth + Grace and Mercy

That is a working, practical definition of love.

I work in risk-management as a trade. I know odds, I understand the legalities of multi-million dollar, multi-year contracts I can write almost water-tight contracts that push liabilities around to the spots I desire it to land before I sign anything. Even then I have had issues that require additional legal support.....but we have a very high success rate.

Risk-management works well in business but is a poor model to build a marriage on.

How do I state this so firmly? 'Cause I did it....at least tried to do it.

Codependency is one form of control within a marriage...and I was a master in it, working within the MANY different choices a CoD can make like Mozart worked in music! Certainly there is a slug of other controlling ways to "do relationships". My brother, burned by a wife and now a bitter divorced man has chosen to control his relational life by NOT inviting anyone in....seeking joys in hobbies, work, volunteering etc. Its a valid way to do life, but not a way to do a healthy relationship.

Thing is.....risk management is about CONTROL. Marriage and human relationships are about inviting others in and being invited into others to INFLUENCE. Part of this dynamic is to be open to being influenced, not controlled.

Risk management is all about NOT being vulnerable. Real intimacy is about BEING vulnerable.

Want to know the real kicker for me? Even with all the controls I put into place.....this trial still hurts like a bitch! All the pain I thought I was limiting and reducing my exposure too? That was MY part of the delusion I lived in. I was so proud of my marriage for 15 years before my wifes affair, how pain free and conflict free it was, how easy it was and how neither of us were getting hurt.........now I see all of that as they truly were. Flags waving that I didn't stop and look at cause I was into my own "risk- managed" marriage.

Look....I have read your responses and you seem dead set on NOT reconciliation. I get that.....adultery kills marriages and can jade and make bitter those touched by it. I totally get it. God himself recognizes the strain that is adultery on a marriage. Your wife will take full credit for killing yours....but to allow your heart to get bitter and to choose to be the jaded man my brother is choosing to be is all on you. You have a choice. I do too....and I struggle with bitterness yet today, but am committed to NOT allowing this trial to do that to me. And I, like you, have complete control over that.

so why post in R forum and not General?

What are you seeking?

What are you hoping for?

small t\j: Hey Zugzwang....nice to put a name with you. I have enjoyed watching you both R through Hopefulmothers posts. Well done.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 4:29 PM, May 31st (Tuesday)]

MrSpock: I have read this thread and your profile. You hold yourself and the world around you at very high standards and values. Am I right on that? If so, I might be able to relate a few things to you later at that regard and how that plays in healing.

Aside from what appears my husband's personal vendetta of all things Nicholas Sparks, I think romantic true love does not exist as well. I have never come across in it my life. I expect nothing in that regards. So, I am at either an advantage or disadvantage to you. I know only love. Love by actions. Though unlike my husband I do believe that for a healthy person and maybe some that may suffer, the ideal of true/romantic love can be healthy. It is in my opinion hope. Something of which by my SI name I have a lot of. I think, like my husband, that many people get love wrong. They build a fantasy world of what love should be. Of course novels and movies about this type of love play a huge part. But, I am Christian. This is a fallen world and the love that Corinthians 13:4-8 refers to is a guide. It will never exist in its purity. Like my husband stated. That only exists in God himself. We, as fallen human beings with the capacity of good and bad can only hope to achieve this. To use it as a guide. A motivator to be the best of ourselves. You may do better than most. Many will not. But, that is where Grace and Mercy come in. Corinthians is my life verse now. In some ways it always was. But, my childhood played a deciding factor in my high moral/ethical values. Till my husband's affair I held everyone at that same standard. I knew nothing of Grace, Mercy, or Forgiveness. I believed that if I could hold myself accountable after everything I had been through at such a high standard, then everyone should be able to do the same. SI taught me so much about that assumption. I taught myself about human failure. I learned that not everything is lost if another doesn't hold me to the same regards as I would hold them when it comes to that ideal of "perfect love". I know it is a hard pill to swallow that our spouse did not love us enough to make the right choices when you want to be loved and valued to that degree. Especially if you believe you have unconditional love. How hard it is to live with someone that has already proven how far their love for you will go. Do not fold in this life because this type of love is a fantasy. It doesn't mean you should give up on life or love. It just means that you have something to strive for, to hope for. Just because pure love is not achievable doesn't mean that you shouldn't accept what you can get from an ideal. It just means that if that ideal is not reached; you don't see failure, hopelessness, wasted time, and a absence of any love.

Ask yourself why having this perfect love is so soul damning for you if it doesn't exist.

After you answer my first question, I will discuss how I reconciled my ethical/moral values to live with and grow in my new marriage.

I see a lot in your posts, but what I don't see is hope. It breaks my heart to see anyone at that stage. Correct me and please feel free to tell me if I am wrong.

Hello Blakesteele. It is good to see you doing well. Your posts were very inspiring.

I have Pm'd you but I also wanted to respond to the thread. I think what you need to do first is define what "love" is. Then look at your expectations of that definition and see if it is authentic and realistic. IMO "true love" Nicholas Sparks romantic book shit doesn't exist and sets many people up for disappointment and failure. How can anyone live to that type of love's expectations? I am not a religious man, but I am not uneducated in religion. I believe if you were a Christian the only perfect love that you are seeking exists only with God. Are you having trouble accepting human failure? You have high moral values and expectations. So does my wife. She struggled with this greatly. I think she talked to Blakesteele about this a lot. Hopefulmother is her handle. Maybe I can get her to post. She got past this, but she got a ton of support and guidance. Her faith had a huge part of it.

Zug, I had to leave and could not respond to your PM. I'll do this later because I think you're spot pot on with the points you mentioned there. Now, I want to address your post here. First of all, so that we can communicate at the same level and about the same things I want to say in advance that I'm not Christian and religious. In fact, I am a very spiritual man and follow a world's major spiritual path but it's none of the theistic religions. So, I do not believe in God (I hope I do not offend anyone).

I agree with you about the need to define love as a first step. Here's my definition: love means wanting others to be happy! It is unconditional. This definition means that 'love' refers to something quite different from the ordinary term of love which is usually about attachment, more or less successful relationships and sex; all of which are rarely without self-interest. Instead, it refers to detachment (from attachments, desires and so on) and the unselfish interest in others' welfare. Therefore, for me true love is the embodiment of values as compassion, gratitude, wisdom, truth, altruism and kindness.

The question is if it's possible to reconcile it with the more conventional form of marriage. Maybe if it's possible to reconcile with a marriage at all. I do agree with you that the whole "romantic "in love" stuff" is a bogus and a completely deluded bullshit. However, the question is also as I discussed with DD is if my wife can understand the pervasive, deep and massive devastation that her infidelity caused to me in those terms and we can take it into a marriage that is based on the above value. In the PM you touched it and it maybe could be possible. I plan to discuss it with her and we will see it. I will later PM you back to discuss it more.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 5:11 PM, May 31st (Tuesday)]

Hopefulmother

Thank you for your post. As I mentioned above I'm not Christian and even do not follow a theistic path. I follow a major none theistic spiritual path. This does not mean you can't offer me insight on certain aspects. It means I have to filter the theistic aspects to identify from the rest what applies and is true to me. In fact, I did found many aspects in your post to be helpful. You do bring a perspective and question that I want to reflect on them. I'll try to answer your question later but I need to give it first some thought

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:51 PM, May 31st (Tuesday)]

Blakesteele

There is a lot that I disagree with you or I don't know if it's better to say that we hold very different worldviews. So, because I don't want it to become some argument for the sake of argument I haven't replied to your posts although I really appreciate you taking your time to help me. I just want to address this one:

so why post in R forum and not General?

What are you seeking?

What are you hoping for?

In fact, you are correct here and at the beginning I was not sure where to post it. Yet, because of the below reasons I decided to post it in reconciliation. Anyway, my answers to HOP and SIC are in fact also giving an answer to your questions here

Here's my answer to HOP

It's not a definite conclusion or decision I have taken. However, it's also not something that I can so lightly dismiss anymore.

And here's the answer to SIC

So, you might think now that I've already made a decision and am done with the marriage. This is not true because otherwise I would have already filed. As I said above I want to see if it's still possible to do this and realize myself in the marriage and for this purpose I'm going to discuss it with my wife. However, this is how I feel and thinking right now and I'm indeed jaded with relationships, am fed up, exhausted, tired and burned out. It's with romantic relationship not with life and humanity as a whole. I think that no matter how good people are, romantic relationships as it seems to me today bring out the worse of them. I tend to believe that it is even not true love. I do hope that having that conversation with my wife she can prove me wrong. I truly wish so.

Mr. Spock, this article made me think of your posts...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/why-you-will-marry-the-wrong-person.html

We mustn’t abandon him or her, only the founding Romantic idea upon which the Western understanding of marriage has been based the last 250 years: that a perfect being exists who can meet all our needs and satisfy our every yearning.

WE need to swap the Romantic view for a tragic (and at points comedic) awareness that every human will frustrate, anger, annoy, madden and disappoint us — and we will (without any malice) do the same to them. There can be no end to our sense of emptiness and incompleteness. But none of this is unusual or grounds for divorce. Choosing whom to commit ourselves to is merely a case of identifying which particular variety of suffering we would most like to sacrifice ourselves for.

This philosophy of pessimism offers a solution to a lot of distress and agitation around marriage. It might sound odd, but pessimism relieves the excessive imaginative pressure that our romantic culture places upon marriage. The failure of one particular partner to save us from our grief and melancholy is not an argument against that person and no sign that a union deserves to fail or be upgraded.

...Romanticism has been unhelpful to us; it is a harsh philosophy. It has made a lot of what we go through in marriage seem exceptional and appalling. We end up lonely and convinced that our union, with its imperfections, is not “normal.” We should learn to accommodate ourselves to “wrongness,” striving always to adopt a more forgiving, humorous and kindly perspective on its multiple examples in ourselves and in our partners.

To me, love is merely an emotion. If there is enough respect, admiration, attraction, reciprocity it can transcend momentary emotion bursts and become a pattern. If the pattern is obliterated or interrupted from its continuum with destruction that emotion is almost impossible to resurrect. That's how I experience it. I don't think that's tragic. I think that's how it's supposed to be. Bonds are precious and fragile. You drop them, they break.

MrSpock: No offense taken. So, do you believe in the Golden Rule? Do you believe in a Utopia? Do you live by a moral code like a knight of the round table?

I agree with some of your view on love. Those are actions. Those are concrete. That is selfless. To me too, love is selfless. My husband and I used to debate a lot about selfless acts. He always had believed that there were no selfless acts. Even in being selfless, the giver receives something. He is right, but wrong. The giver does receive something, but they are not motivated to get or receive. They are motivate to ease the burden of others. To enrich lives. That is how I view myself. That is how I view my love. But, love is a different definition for most. I don't believe in unconditional love in the definition that most do. My husband will claim my love for him is unconditional. What he defines is unconditional would not be the same for me. If I went by his definition, it is not unconditional. If he were to abuse me, I would leave. That is a condition. We both consider adultery abuse. Unconditional love in my definition would mean I would do him no harm or ill will. So, you see it is so hard to match our views, ethics, and morals with others.

Therefore, for me true love is the embodiment of values as compassion, gratitude, wisdom, truth, altruism and kindness.

These I can relate to. These are the pillars of my faith. Fruits of the Spirit. They are my moral code and compass. lol- You do sound like a Knight of the Old Code. Excuse my reference to Dragon Heart. As you can discern these to me are moral values. But, I can see how that can be viewed as love. These things I hold in the highest regard. I have them and I thought I had married a man that held steadfast to these same principles. So, I ask you: Do you really mourn "true love" or are you unable to reconcile the loss of what you thought was your moral equivalent in life? If it is the later, then this. This is something I know. I assure you, my husband knows what he did to me on a moral level. What that has cost me to stay. To accept that his moral values are not equal to my own.

Now to relate how I changed myself to fit into this new marriage while keeping my moral values and accepting the reality that we are all flawed. I am a very sensitive person when it comes to empathy. I will cry and think about the animals left abandoned in a den if I see an animal dead on the side of the road. My strength and weakness. My empathy. Suffering can put me into a depression if it wasn't for hope. That is why I don't post. I haven't learned how to detach from other people's suffering. I abhorred people that are entitled. I abhorred people that inflict pain and suffering. I abhorred people that walk on others backs to get desires or to ease their burdens. Everyone has it hard. No one has the right to expect anyone else to ease their burden while that person is shouldering their own burdens. I love to help people, but I want humility from them. Not entitlement. Most of all I abhorred people that took others for granted. I walked through life doing my best to not hurt anyone. So, why can't everyone? How narrow minded and self-righteous I was. No wonder my husband thought he was never good enough for me. How, could anyone live up to my standards. I was before the affair a very critical person of those that did nothing to help themselves first. It was okay in my book, as long as they helped themselves first. As long as they tried.

Then, the fall of my self-righteousness. In my pain. The very apex of it. I wrote a letter to the AP. It was not virtuous. It was damning. My husband had written one as well. We sent them. I could not live one moment longer without proving just how righteous and valuable I was to my husband. I couldn't live at that time knowing that this woman may be walking the Earth thinking that my husband valued her. How could he? Something like that, when I was who i was. How could he want that. That is before I realized the truth of affairs. But, at the time I was lost. How could I be so much, but he gave it up. Because, it was never about how good I was. It was about how lost he was. I was good. He valued that. But, at the time he took that for granted. Many do. Take the best for granted. Not only did he take me for granted, but I had become an object to him. But, back to my fall. What I wrote and did was so out of character for me. I was frozen with guilt and shame after I sent that letter. How could I!? How could I kick a person that obviously was already broken and suffering to commit what she did? What if my letter had been her last straw? What if that had sent her into such a depression that she ended it all. I began to see humanity for what it was. We make horrible choices, no matter how high our values. Up until then I believed that nothing could rock me from my pillar of treading lightly. I could never go against the moral value that was my character. I made a horrible choice and I was so undeniably sorry for my lapse in staying committed to doing no harm. I was not as steadfast as I claimed to be. SI helped me get through this and it took months. A wonderful poster aided me in using this moment of weakness to understand my husband. To understand Grace. To understand tolerance. To realize that I had put him on pedestal and that he was only human. Believe me, he had used this excuse many times. "I am only human." But, I rebuffed it... "No! You can't use that as an excuse to not do better, to not be more, to not be better." There is no Utopia. There will always be some trespass we make to another, sometimes not even knowing it. But, we deserve grace, mercy, and forgiveness if we atone. I say this to you from a spiritual stance. I had no right to give myself these things while with holding it from him. I could not condemn him with my moral values. He deserved the chance to change. To be more to me than a cheater. To heal himself. To earn back his integrity and honor. This allowed me to move on and accept this new marriage with all its weaknesses, mine and his.

You can grow from this. You can make yourself more than what you ever were. You can use this experience to build your character beyond what you even thought possible. But, you must be willing to assimilate new ideas. You must see marriages differently. You will have to acknowledge that to have what you want, you would have to live in a vacuum. What I learned about myself and how I have changed has opened up avenues for me that were such a blessing. I was able to give my mother and others forgiveness before they died.

This experience has humbled me so much.

Please do not take this as me telling you that you are less than perfect if you can't live with your wife. It is a deal breaker. The person that you thought she was doesn't exist and there is nothing wrong with wanting something more virtuous. I am just giving you some hope. Some way to accept who she is even if it less than what you hold at your moral/unconditional love values/level. Only you know if you can live besides someone that you do not feel is an equal. I understand completely. This experience has shaken the very foundation of your being. Your values and standards are your soul. I get it. All I ever wanted was who I thought my husband was. If I am to be who I want to be. If I am to strengthen my character, then I needed to stay. My husband is still the same man I wanted to experience life with.

By the way. I don't think you are afraid of getting hurt. I don't think you are looking for the safe investment. I just think that you, being who you are as unconditional love want to exist with someone that is the same. You don't want to be taken for granted. I am not sure you even know if you can live with someone that did take you in all that you have to give and offer was taken for granted. I am so sorry for how you have suffered from this. I absolutely understand. If I am right.

By the way. I don't think you are afraid of getting hurt. I don't think you are looking for the safe investment. I just think that you, being who you are as unconditional love want to exist with someone that is the same. You don't want to be taken for granted. I am not sure you even know if you can live with someone that did take you in all that you have to give and offer was taken for granted. I am so sorry for how you have suffered from this. I absolutely understand. If I am right.

Hopefulmother

I'm really grateful for your post and I want to thank you for replying on my thread especially when it is so hard for you in the light of the immense pain you have to encounter on this site. You're actually the second poster that can truly "read" me. The first one was on my two first opening threads and he immensely helped with one certain aspect. Your post here, in the same way as was his, is a kind of a breakthrough, although it highlights a different aspect. In fact, they are tightly interconnected or are actually the two sides of the same phenomenon. I will immediately explain it,

Anyway, I want first of all to tell you that you are right. In each and every word you wrote in the above paragraph. That's me. So, coming back to the first poster that helped me immensely, his help was important in that it made me realize that this specific type of infidelity was an exception to my deal break0er. Everything else would have resulted in an immediate divorce. My wife had an ONS and was drunk up to the point that she was completely wasted. The drinking itself was completely out of character for her.

We largely discussed this topic in the two first threads but what I want to point out that I don't believe there was intent to betray me. As every action is originated or can be traced down to an intention this is the most crucial thing for me. I can't stay with a woman that had such intention and could find pleasure in it. I also believe there wasn't any intention involved in the drinking in terms of a motivation to use it so she can hook to with someone. However, there was disregard and neglect of possible damage on me through her behavior and this is an intentional act as well.

I believed that although a huge problem it wasn't a deal breaker in itself. I'm still not sure but you opened my eyes to the possibility that it might be and I have to consider this option too. This disregard, this neglect, is maybe the epitome or the embodiment of being taken granted and you are so right asserting "that you, being who you are as unconditional love want to exist with someone that is the same". I couldn't better express it myself. And by being the same I'm talking about being my complete ethical/spiritual/moral/worth and value equal. That being said one could also claim that prior to her deep transformation she wasn't but yet she maybe is and doesn't she deserve this chance as well? That's also part of the conflict and sometimes I feel it is as if my mind is going to explode

So, do you believe in the Golden Rule? Do you believe in a Utopia? Do you live by a moral code like a knight of the round table

Yes, I do believe in the golden rule but I can be more precise than this. Morality for me boils down to a very simple rule or principle! Do always good and if you can't than at least do not commit evil. Furthermore, it means: Do Good, purify your mind (and heart) and abstain from evil. I do not think it's a Utopia or the moral code of the round table and I indeeed can and should in my opinion hold people accountable for this - at least those who are relevant for my life! I they can't be accountable for such a minimum, then what is the world we are living in, a jungle?

As you can discern these to me are moral values. But, I can see how that can be viewed as love. These things I hold in the highest regard……………………………So, I ask you: Do you really mourn "true love" or are you unable to reconcile the loss of what you thought was your moral equivalent in life? If it is the later, then this. This is something I know. I assure you, my husband knows what he did to me on a moral level. What that has cost me to stay. To accept that his moral values are not equal to my own

I know that my stance on it might differ from many but I do not see any contradiction here. For me love and morality, if not one and the same thing then they are at least the two sides of the same coin. They are intrinsically inseparable. Love mirrors morality and morality incorporates love. The separation is artificial in my opinion. Therefore, in a way, of course I cannot really separate between the loss of what I perceived as true love and the inability to reconcile the loss of what I thought was my moral equivalent in life. I a way it's a double betrayal if to borrow an analogy from another aspect of infidelity. I mourn both of them. The greatest hurt, pain and betrayal here stem from thee violation of what I see as the rule of reciprocity and interconnectedness. The interconnectedness from which all, selflessness, love, compassion, gratitude, wisdom, truth, kindness, altruism, stems. For me it's a betrayal not only at the core of our very being but the very existence as well. I mourn this too, all of it.

The person that you thought she was doesn't exist and there is nothing wrong with wanting something more virtuous. Only you know if you can live besides someone that you do not feel is an equal.

The first poster I mentioned above told me that my wife is most probably the only woman I could be open and completely vulnerable with. For many reasons I have to agree with him. He wrote this on my second thread. You can find the link on my profile and from there access the thread. If I remember correct it's on the last page of the thread. The thing is that I don't believe I can find a more virtuous or better woman than her. And if she was able to do it than what's left? It is sad but her infidelity broke my trust not only in her but also in that sense in relationships.

Hopefulmother

I want to address more aspects from your post but right now I have to leave so I'll do it later. I do want to thank you for your posts as they are indeed very thoughtful and resonate a lot with me and my experience. Thanks!

[This message edited by MrSpock at 5:12 AM, June 1st (Wednesday)]

nonexttime

To me, love is merely an emotion. If there is enough respect, admiration, attraction, reciprocity it can transcend momentary emotion bursts and become a pattern. If the pattern is obliterated or interrupted from its continuum with destruction that emotion is almost impossible to resurrect. That's how I experience it. I don't think that's tragic. I think that's how it's supposed to be. Bonds are precious and fragile. You drop them, they break.

I found this explanation about the differences between unconditional selfless love and the conditioned love that is self-centered and that I find to be true. It says:

The "near enemy" of love, or a quality which appears similar, but is more an opposite is: conditional love (selfish love). Attachment and love are similar in that both of them draw us to the other person. But in fact, these two emotions are quite different. When we’re attached we’re drawn to someone because he or she meets our needs. In addition, there are lots of strings attached to our affection that we may or may not realize are there. For example, I “love” you because you make me feel good. I “love” you as long as you do things that I approve of. I “love” you because you’re mine. You’re my spouse or my child or my parent or my friend. With attachment, we go up and down like a yo-yo, depending on how the other person treats us. We obsess, “What do they think of me? Do they love me? Have I offended them? How can I become what they want me to be so that they love me even more?” It’s not very peaceful, is it? We’re definitely stirred up. On the other hand, with unconditional selfless love, we simply want other to have happiness and the causes of happiness without any strings attached, without any expectations of what these people will do for us or how good they’ll make us feel.

I would add that unconditional love because it is not dependent on external factors that you have no control over them is unbreakable. Conditioned love, because it is dependent on external factors you can't control, is exactly as you describe here. That's the differences I wanted to point out.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 3:55 AM, June 1st (Wednesday)]

Blakesteele,

I am confused..

Many of my single friends are relieved to be single after having spent many years or decades in unfulfilling or abusive marriages..They want the freedom, the new experience of living life on their terms..

How is that unhealthy?

On the other hand if somebody adores living within a marriage, but finds that he/she resists marriage due to fear of being abandoned (disrespected, betrayed ), I can see that as being unhealthy..

[This message edited by doggiediva at 6:41 AM, June 1st (Wednesday)]

Many of my single friends are relieved to be single after having spent many years or decades in unfulfilling or abusive marriages..They want the freedom, the new experience of living life on their terms..

How is that unhealthy?

No....not unhealthy. My brothers ex wife is an alcoholic. She has not changed and has minimized and denied what the facts in her life are. I get and totally understand my brothers desire to distance himself from that addictive\abusive relationship......just not ALL relationships.

I am stating that we as humans are meant to connect with others. We are not equipped nor meant to do life in isolation. Its one reason "isolation" is used as a torture method.

Unfulfilling and abusive relationships are NOT connecting.....and I am a huge proponent of fixing that. One of the fixes could be to get out of that relationship. But to give up on ALL relationships because of the really bad ones is NOT healthy. Certainly understandable, but not healthy. Like eating a banana, not liking it, and then giving up on all fruit because of the dislike of that one experience and eating just potatoes. We will miss out on the vitamins not offered in potatoes....not to mention we would never know the sweet taste of strawberries.

Pain has the ability to do that...hold us back from trying something new, growing forward. Painful experiences try to get us to believe the lie that "we are just fine, who needs bananas anyway".

Growth is healthy....but some pain is involved in growth. Even writing effective contracts took some painful experiences (even after the book-learning needed before I wrote my first one) before I started to get it right.....but I didn't give up on the desire to do my job well. Now I feel the blessing that it is to help others in our organization write solid contracts....and I continue to tweak contracts as minor issues\pain arise. I believe this is what true R looks like....a continuous process of growing together, influencing each other in healthy ways.

I hope someday to model for our girls what its like to be in a healthy relationship...something that neither of our FOO were able to do for us.

On the other hand if somebody adores living within a marriage, but finds that he/she resists marriage due to fear of being abandoned (disrespected, betrayed ), I can see that as being unhealthy..

Yes...and this is what my wife and I have realized. We BOTH feared intimacy to the point of never really trying for it....and in the process settling for far less than what a healthy connected relationship could be.

We were into heavy CoD cycles....hell bent on controlling the other so that we would not be hurt or feel pain. We had so many ways we tried to manage the risk of a real relationship that no real intimacy was going to occur.

I don't have THE answer, still struggle with pain of my past that tempts me to choose things like a kid-centric marriage, throw myself into my work or hobbies, etc. over chancing real intimacy.

In my opinion I can't experience real intimacy until I am able to release control and embrace vulnerability. And that is something I continue to need to learn and have made some painful mistakes as I do so.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:15 AM, June 1st (Wednesday)]

MrSpock....have you felt angry at yourself? Like you should have seen this coming but didn't? If you could have just done x,y,or z this whole shit-storm could have been avoided?

I ask because I know this anger. I felt like I had such a good handle on our M, knew my wife, knew myself so well before her affair.

On a much lesser pain level....I know this anger when I have a contractor fail to perform but then use my own contract in ways that make holding him accountable very difficult. I then work through that pain, salvage what I can, then seal up the contract looseness that allowed this issue to be an issue.

I ask because I get a sense that you are working on a formula to prevent this from happening again. That was my mode of operation since the sexual abuse I experienced as a boy.....prevent relational pain from entering my life.

You owe me nothing...and I sense I have aggravated you more than I intended. That was not my intention and I am sorry for that.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:23 AM, June 1st (Wednesday)]

Unconditional love - I get the concept. All love is self centered. It should be as you can not love another if you don't love yourself. Doesn't happen. You may think you do but all you're really doing is measuring at that point. How good do you make me feel. What do you do for me and even what do you do to me. Chasing love of another is soul abdication. If another abuses you loving them is a travesty. It warps the meaning and is, at its core, totally self involved no matter how one tries to convince themselves otherwise.

Your wife was compromised. I'm sure her shame and self disgust is lethal at this point. Do you not find any part of yourself that wants to wrap her in some form of redemption and true reconciliation? If not your love was destroyed. Mine may have been as well. If so don't you feel we have to own that and move on? For all parties?

Mr. Spock, I want to say that I suddenly feel like I am understanding your perspective quite well. I was definitely raised religious and do believe in God, yet I would say my current practice is more spiritual. Your description of your thoughts and feelings seem to be a lot of my own. I understand when you say you want to grow spiritually.

Lately, I have just been repeating over and over that I don't understand why people can't just act out of love. To me, this seems so simple. I honestly don't know how to hurt others. At my core is a compassion for others that makes me vulnerable just simply by being who I am. So this? Well, it has struck me to my core, and I understand your wanting to start over, to find someone who has the same values, the same strong moral code. Do you believe that people can change? That they can strengthen their core values? That experiences and perceptions can change a person? I think you do, if I understand your spiritual practice. Is it that your wife did not have these values? That she put herself in this situation? That now your marriage is not what you believed or wanted it to be?

I'm...agreeing with a lot that is said here. So many thoughts are swirling in my head. See, my WH did plan and plot. The intent WAS to hurt or get back at some perceived slight. You know, that has been the hardest part for me. What the heck is that? I do not understand that perspective from how I see the world--from how I interact in the world. And as someone who is a black and white thinker most of the time, there is either acting out of love or not. There can be no middle ground. In adultery? That is clear. Yet, I believe people can change. I know that I have grown in my spiritual practice and in who I am as a person. Somehow, I feel that MUST translate to my WH. It has to. So if he is working and trying, if there is movement in thoughts, in actions, and I can SEE it? Now, it's not so black and white anymore.

I do not want to t/j if I am. I feel very much like I'm rambling. Hopeful Mother, thank you. I am going to re-read and re-read, as there was much there that I need to hear. THank you, Spock, for this post.

Here's my definition: love means wanting others to be happy!

MrSpock,

I know logic isn't the problem here, and I fear you and I don't really talk each other's language, but...

This sort of definition is downright dangerous! Your definition justifies every KISA, and loads of SIers are here because their WSes are/were KISAs.

It helped get my W into her A - she knew I was happy, she knew she had more to give, ow certainly had needs, and W wanted ow to be happy, too.

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As far as I can see, true love is not selfless, at least for me.

I courted my W2b for a number of reasons. For example, I found myself with an intense sexual desire for her. We spent hours talking with each other after classes (usually in the company of other classmates) for months because I wanted to talk with her, to hear her voice and her ideas.

I felt GREAT talking with her; not so great the rest of the time. After we started dating, I felt even better sitting close to her, touching and being touched by her. I thought (and continue to think) I'm a better me with her than without her.

I liked all that, and I wanted more of it, so I asked her to marry me. My love was as selfish as all get out.

W2b was CoD, and I didn't know that, so I guess she felt some of that 'selfless' love, but at a deeper level, she wanted me. She talks of noticing and even admiring me the first day of class. She talks of wanting me to ask her out. She talks of feeling extreme pleasure at my touch, for example when I guided her to her seat in the coffee shop. Hell, as one of our friends says, she gave up study time for me - and she loved studying (still does).

In the almost 2 years we were together before M, our selfishness meshed pretty well, and we thought that would continue forever. So I saw our M as 2 people wanting to be with each other for selfish reasons.

We care about each other. Certainly we are or make ourselves OK with some of each other's desires that we're not happy with, and I guess you could call those sacrifices - but I make my sacrifices in service of satisfying other of my desires.

Anybody who actually wants to get married (or otherwise connect with someone) does so with at least some selfish reasons.

IMO, true love between partners is and must be selfish.

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In the next sections I ask some questions that IMO you need to answer for yourself, not for me or any other reader. I do not intend to call you out, just to jar your thinking.

You profess extremely high moral standards.

Do you meet them yourself?

Have you never lied?

Have you never served your own interests above those of people you want something from (vendors, employees, bosses, parents, siblings, wife, children, friends)?

If you fail meet your own standards, what do you do?

You say you follow a major, non-theistic spiritual path.

What would/do your teacher(s) advise? Are you following that advice?

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Gently but frankly, I think you're feeling shame, and you can't get yourself out of it. So far, your use of logic hasn't helped, and I don't think logic can solve your problem.

Logic is a useful tool, but emotions trump logic every time. Just sayin'....

(For a logical explanation of how emotions trump logic, check into the work of Sylvan Tomkins.)

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:44 AM, June 1st (Wednesday)]