SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

'the race'

waitedwaytoolong

he knew not from a friend but from him and the discussions they continue to have. She has known for a week and didn't tell you? Were you just supposed to show up to the race tomorrow and line up right next to this guy and this was supposed to be ok? Were you and your wife on your anniversary weekend going to just nod and say hi to this guy?

You are not the priority. If you were she would have come to you a week ago and said AP is scheduled to run in the race and I don't want to be anywhere near him, but it is your decision. Instead she wanted to set u up. I am so angry for you

Right now

She should be no where near that race.

m1965

20yrs,

Firstly: Do not go to that race. Period. It would be crazy to go. You will spend every second looking for the OM, and if you see him, you may attack him. Nobody needs that.

So I repeat, for everyone’s good, please do not go to that race.

ginny

Sigh. She doesn't get it. NC means NO Contact. Period. She is playing you. You know how she found out he was in the race? He told her. If she was really in NC and "happened to hear about it from a mutual friend", she would have come home and told you then said. "What are WE going to do about this?" You know - handle it as a team.

As long as they are working together there is most likely contact going on. I'm sorry.

mickybill2016

There may be 5000 people at the race, but she will be looking for him while pretending to pay all her attention to him and he will be looking for her, a very good chance they will meet, maybe just by sight. But he may even be bold enough to approach the two of you together..maybe you should take the initiative.. in any event her mind will be occupied on him.

Since she puts her job and the OM before the marriage and you, if you asked her not go to the race I'd bet she would put that in front of the marriage too.

redhorse

Personally, i would go do a race if i wanted to. I am not going to have some OM dictate what i can or can't do.

twisted

Hell, I'd go and have her find him and point him out to me. It would be confrontation time in front of God and 5000 people. Or maybe see how fast he can run.

Yeah, I might be a redneck....

I did go to the race. Never experienced anything on this scale before. There really was negligible chance of running into someone randomly.

I was still feeling pretty uncomfortable about the situation so we did talk about it before the race. I asked how she would feel if it was reversed and that it was a bit humiliating to be at an event where some guy she had been sleeping with was going to be there.

She felt bad and said she should have told me right away. Asked me if I didn't want to go. Was hoping it would be a fun day and we didn't have to dwell on this. She did make the point that she has no control over what the DB does and that she hated the situation.

She and I were together until time to go to the corrals. Massive groups left every 5 minutes.

We saw each other once in the race, I am sure she called to me both to say hi and to draw attention that DB was no where to be seen.

At the end I waited for her. That DB OM would have walked right past me, based on finishing times, but I never saw that POS. He may as well not have been there. It was a pretty good day after the race.

As we waited for another friend to finish she told me she would go to confession and speak to the priest.

Twisted, sorry to disappoint. There was no cage match as entertaining and appealing as that sounds.

A draft letter

m1965

“This is not about destroying the marriage, it is about saving it. I am telling you honestly and with complete sincerity that I love you, I love our life and our marriage, and I want those things to be rescued from this mess and for the rest of our lives to be about us and the kids, and only us and the kids. But I cannot do that without your help and co-operation. I know there are things you find hard to talk about, but those are the things that we must talk about if we are going to save this marriage.

I know that emotions can be confused, and that people are not perfect. I know that nothing you have done was done to deliberately hurt me, the marriage, or the family. I know that you are not a bad person. I know that you love me. I know that you love the children. I know that you want what we have to continue, just as much as I do.

I know that bad decisions can be made, and emotional situations can be created as a result of those decisions. And I believe that you made such a decision when you fell in love with the OM and embarked on your affair with him. There is no point to deny that you loved him, because it is obvious that you did. That hurts me, but I have accepted the reality of it. We cannot deny it. With no evil intentions, you created an emotional world around you in which you loved me, you loved the kids, and you loved him.

And you have inhabited that emotional world for almost two years. It has become your life, and you have used compartmentalising, denial, avoidance, and at times outright lies to maintain it, and to try prevent anyone from being hurt. But that has not worked, and so we find ourselves where we are today. Which is a situation where you love me, and you still love him. Please do not try to deny that, because we both know that it is true, and if we ignore that reality, we will never be able to fix this.

Love is not a water faucet. It cannot be turned on and off at a moment’s notice. It lingers. It may change in form as it lingers, but it lingers. As hard as it is for me, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that you still have feelings for the other man, and we must both drop the pretence that that is not true. So what do we do about that?

We begin by communicating honestly. You can tell me that you love the OM and I will not blow up or divorce you. In fact, you need to admit to loving him for the process of falling out of love with him to begin. And there are steps that we can take, together or alone, to help us reach a goal that I think we both want, which is our marriage and family being about us, and only us, with no intrusions from anyone else.

Counselling is essential. You need to have individual counselling, and talk honestly about the situation that has developed over the past two years, and how it happened. You need to gain an understanding of how you could develop and maintain separate relationships, and how you can disable that mechanism for the future.

There are several books that would be beneficial, and I think we should read them together, and turn the reclaiming of our marriage into a joint project.

It is essential that you find a new job, and we are going to set a deadline now for you to be out of your current job. If you have not found another job by then, I need you to agree to resign from that job. I cannot live with allowing this process to drag on much longer, it is far too hurtful and stressful for me to bear.

It is essential that for the sake of our marriage, you make a genuine commitment to ending all contact with the OM. That means talking, messaging, snap chat, emails, letters, or using mutual friends as a means of continuing contact and communication with him. It hurt me hugely that you fell in love with another man, but that is the reality we face together. However, what really tears my heart out is that you are still in contact with him, and still taking an interest in what he is doing. But breaking contact is not just about you doing something for me. It is about you doing it for you, as part of the process of moving him out of our marriage, our lives, and our future. He cannot continue to be a part of our marriage and our lives, but only you can remove him. Or you can continue to invite him into the marriage, and the marriage will fail. It might be me who files for divorce, but the decisions and the actions that lead to that will have been yours. So I hope you can see why getting that man out of your life, your thoughts, and your heart, is in your best interests. Unless you can do that, this marriage cannot be saved. This is where you have to take the lead, because although we will work on saving the marriage together, only you can do the work that is required to get that man out of our lives for good. But please do not say you are committed to doing that if it is not true, because without your genuine commitment, it will not work.

stevesn

Perfect MI1965.

I am surely hoping that 20yrsin can finally open his mind to what mostly you, a little bit me and some others have been trying to tell him.

He should read that letter to her verbatim.

Fingers crossed.

m1965, I use this word a lot when it comes to your posts but I will say it again, very insightful. Thank you, I think you have picked up on something. I am sure she will deny having feelings. But these are the things to work on and the boundaries and consequences.

A deadline will be established. She proposed one herself but it's when her manager on mat leave returns. The urgency is not understood and I will insist on something much sooner.

In our exchange of emails when she was in a panic on Friday, I responded that we need to rebuild the foundation. That I needed her to do the work. She came back with she will do her best to help us heal with the help of a counsellor.

I also asked some 'details' questions about contact. The reaction to the 'no contact' letter which was a 'messaging' question which she answered with one word and closed the lync.

I mentioned how the race news bothered me and she said she was sorry, she avoided the subject because she hates the feeling of making me feel bad. She promised to do better in this area.

As far as mutual friends, and I am pretty sure she ran a tight ship with the OM as she would be terrified of anyone finding out. There are two, one of whom, if you can believe her story, told her about the race entry. The other friend, who is a close girlfriend, gives her the vibe she thinks its weird they don't talk anymore but hasn't mentioned it.

I asked to know everything that has happened since d-day. She said it was difficult to cut off ties without being rude and also being clear about her choices to cut ties. She admitted this was imperfect and that anything more than 'hi' was stupid. She said her approach would get better and that distance and time would help.

For a variety of reasons, weekend being crazy I didn't actually give her the anniversary card until today. When I signed the card I just said for our future we need to 'do the right things'. I will be speaking to her more about this. Leveraging some ideas in your letter.

M1965 I am amazed at how you can pick out these things from my post and very appreciative of the effort and thought you put into these.

Thanks to all contributors whether tough love, comedy, support, even insults ( its the internet what are you going to do :-). I appreciate it.

I am still catching up on posts, drafted a few responses. Still thinking about others.

Its late here, will post more tomorrow.

20yrs,

Many thanks for your kind words. I am no genius, but what I have found in life is that getting as many ideas and opinions about things is better than me thinking about something alone. These forums are the perfect vehicle for that, and as you say, there's a real variety of feedback, from lots of people who have gone through the same kind of experiences. That variety is good, because it gives you a good selection of stuff to choose from. If any of what I have said is useful in that mix, that's great.

I am glad that nothing bad happened at that race, and that you have continued the discussions with your wife about what you need, and why concealment, for whatever motivation, is counter-productive and unacceptable.

In a way, the biggest psychological element of her healing will be un-learning the ability to lie to you and conceal things from you, and to learn how to communicate more openly, including negative things. The concealing goes hand in hand with the denial of problems, the avoidance of dealing with problems, and the trouble she has discussing 'difficult' subjects. Obviously, no-one likes fessing up when they have done bad stuff, but your wife needs to learn how to do that, because it is crucial to both of you being able to move on from the affair, and to establish better, 'safer' communication for the future of the post-affair marriage.

You are actually already doing a part of the work towards that, by not overreacting, and not going into 'punishment' mode when she opens up about bad stuff. That can be very hard to do in the aftermath of infidelity, when feelings are so raw, but if she is going to learn how to be more open about bad stuff, she will need the confidence that she can do that without triggering an angry, negative response. It is difficult, and totally counter-intuitive to be positive and say, "Thank you for being honest about that," when someone tells you something that makes your heart sink, or leaves you feeling like you want to punch the wall, but if you can manage to do that, it will encourage your wife to change from concealment to openness.

Professional counselling can work alongside that, to help her build better coping mechanisms than denial, avoidance, concealment, half-truths, etc. Those seem to be the the problem here, rather than outright lies. There could be all sorts of reasons for her having those coping mechanisms, maybe she grew up being expected to always be 'good', and to be a high achiever, with parents who had little tolerance for anything less. It may be tough for her to un-learn that stuff, but it can be done, and she will be better for it, and so will your marriage.

The journey continues, but I think you are going in the right direction.

However, having said all of the above about the healing process, your wife does still seem to be in almost complete denial about what she did. She keeps saying that you should not 'dwell' on it, as if you can somehow flick a switch in your head, blot the whole thing out of your mind, and go bowling (or whatever). Can she switch her guilt off that easily?

You may already have done this, but if you haven't, you need to write her a long, long letter about what her affair has done to your emotions, your trust in her, and your security about the future. And really go to town with it. Your wife needs to understand where you are mentally and emotionally, and she needs to know what she did to you. Maybe then she will see why you cannot stop 'dwelling' on the affair because of the damage it did, and because until you have had every question answered, some several times over, you are not going to be able to even consider not thinking about it. I know how it was for me; I couldn't stop thinking about it, morning, noon, and night, and my mind constantly produced new questions.

I'm not sure what talking to a priest will achieve; it's not like her religion stopped her from betraying her marriage vows, and she was married before God...However, it can't hurt.

You haven't talked about this much in recent posts, but I hope you are being careful and watchful for any red flags. You really need a 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst' attitude in the aftermath of infidelity, because just as you cannot switch off your thoughts about he affair, your wife cannot switch off her feelings for the OM, regardless of what she says on that score. Unless they had an almighty fight, why would her feelings about him not still be positive? In fact, that kept coming up repeatedly in your discussions. Of course, hatred is not the opposite of love, indifference is, and it would be ideal if she is genuinely as indifferent to him as she claims to be, but you would be wrong to believe that until she has proven it over a prolonged period of time.

There are still quite a few red flags that should not be ignored, you should still be on high alert. Sorry to say that, but it has to be said. She might just be talking a good game because you caught her. Many waywards do that in the aftermath of discovery, often at a time when their betrayed partners desperately need them to be honest and open.

That deadline for being out of that office needs to be set as soon as possible, and it needs to be a limited time. Of course, not being there is no barrier to communication if people really want to stay in touch, but the fact is that they simply cannot be in the same building at the same time, let alone on the same floor, catching elevators together.

I don't know if she works a long way from where you live, but it would be interesting to see what she does in her lunch-hour, and if she leaves the building with anyone. No point to monitor that if the OM really is going overseas for a few weeks (and you may want to verify that independently before taking it on trust), but if she is still there when he returns, I think it would be worth getting a PI to be near her building for a few lunch-hours, or even you, if you can take some time off.

There is still a lot in her behaviour that is questionable, and a lot in her attitude that points at her not being emotionally finished with the affair. As we all now, and you said yourself, there is regret, but not remorse.

Like I say, you would be wise to stay on your guard, and to read other posts that can help with tips about what and how to check and monitor.

[This message edited by M1965 at 2:14 PM, June 19th (Monday)]

20yrsin, when do you start to get mad?????

Mad at how you were used, and continue to be. Almost every post of yours starts with a thanks for advise. Stop apologizing and thanking, start acting. And stop listening to her, look at her actions. She has continued to with hold info and actual contact. This to anyone is called being a LIAR! She has not changed and always promises to do so after you find out new lies.

Mad is good right now, it will allow you to see how you are still afraid of losing something that is causing you all this pain.

I hope you appreciate that people here care about you. Get mad, but always treat her with care and respect, it's the difference between how she treated you....and continues to do so.

20yrsin,

I'm breaking my going dark here to step in and say "Hi" to what feels like me about 2 years ago.

I skimmed your posts and I am frustrated for you, because you seem to be where I was 2 years ago.

I caught my wife sneaking off with another man in May of 2014. We went to marriage counseling and we both went to IC. She apologized and went to church etc (but refused to go to confession, us being catholic). I gave her a list of "must have boundaries" and she reluctantly agreed but was angry for making such a big deal out of it. She raged on me for months for being a shitty husband, etc.

I had a GPS on her car, but it vanished. I bought another, smaller gps, and monitored a little, but nothing out of the ordinary. She refused to do a polygraph because it was a personal insult and a violation of her person.

Anyway, we did not sweep it under the rug and we discussed the emotional affair for days and days. She knew, as discussed in our MC sessions, that if she continued with the affair and broke NC, that divorce was waiting for us and our 5 children (aged 15-4 at the time).

What happened is that she took the affair deep underground and was breaking every boundary we had discussed. Most of the affair was done as we were in MC and as she was raging on me for not believing her faithfulness or for me not being a good husband. IT WAS ALL A LIE.

I tell you this because if your wife is not taking drastic, concrete steps to do anything she can to make you feel safe, do show regret, remorse and contrition, then she is not yet reconcile material.

If NC is a requirement, and if she is bound to run into him working there, then she is saying to you, "My job, my money, my career, my convenience is more important than you or my children."

An affair is so huge, so monumental, so damaging and so cruel, that it tears a hole in everything in your life.

I want you to take a moment and reframe this scenario and compare it to rape. If one of your children was a daughter and if this man raped your daughter, would your wife still be working with him? Would she be nodding to and texting him and being civil with him? Would you be?

I want you to treat this, in your mind, as if this man raped your daughter and somehow got off Scott-free. You want your wife to view this man as an evil, cruel creature that assaulted your family and deserves nothing but disgust and hatred for doing this to her family.

Because, in reality, he has turned your wife into an adulterous, vile, selfish woman. He was the mechanism or catalyst through which she did this to herself.

That is how my wife views the OM and herself now. It took my wife 2 years to get there. She thought she had found her soul mate, her true love. She was willing to throw away her husband and family for this friend and lover. Now she sees that he is likely a psychopathic, serial adulterer who hit on our daughter as well. It can take some time for this transformation to occur. But it is NOT going to happen with him still around.

She needs to quit her work and leave that situation immediately. Tell her it is our family or him and your work. If she gives you this, "My career, or our income" then you tell her she should have fucking thought of that before she tore your family apart.

Again, think of the rape scenario... If that man had raped your daughter, and your daughter was forced to interact with him on a daily basis and he taunted her about it... Would your wife say, "But my career, or our income!" about that? I dare say she would not. She would take her family far, far away from that predator consequences be damned.

So why is she torturing you? Why do you have to put up with this emotional abuse? Why would she not do ANYTHING to help get you and her family out of pain?

The answer is: Because she is selfish and in denial to your pain and agony. She is in denial that she is tearing apart your family.

You both need to see it like this and you both need to take immediate and dramatic action to purge this poison. Believe me when I say that delaying and sucking it up will only hurt you and your family and even your wife more. Instead of a 2-3 year recovery, it will take 5-6 or never. I say this because I delayed and pondered and gave chance after chance for her to turn around and stop the affair. It did not stop until I finally told her I was divorcing her. Only then did she stop. I signed myself up for the 5+ year recovery plan timetable as a result.

Good luck 20yrsin. Get serious about the GPS, the VAR and the polygraph. Your wife is still in denial to the depth of her brokenness and the pain she has signed your family up for. She has a long, long way to go yet.

NP5

[This message edited by notperfect5 at 4:28 PM, June 19th (Monday)]

Thanks for reaching out to him NP5. I hope you and your fWW are doing well in your R.

20yrsin you'd be well served by reading NP5s threads linked from his profiles.

I had also PM'd you another thread that shows you what a truly remorseful WW looks like.

Do yourself a favor and do some reading of others stories here.

She said it was difficult to cut off ties without being rude

So every post of a conversation you and she have has some crazy statement that she makes and you let slide by.

She is okay with destroying your life together, but doesn't want to be rude to the guy who was willing to help her do that? Do you see how out of whack her thought processes are?

She should have no problem with her being rude to this guy - why is she protecting him at your expense?

Listen to notperfect5, he really was you back then and can give you lots of help here.

I also think it is good to take note of NP5. He is a very smart man, yet by his own admission made many mistakes as we all have as we so desperately want not stare into the face the knowledge that someone we loved and trusted could lie to us and in many cases have no clue what was happening.

I know you want this to work out, and there is a good chance that it might, but right now things are not adding up.

This was not just a slam bam one night stand or in the case of my wife a short term thing as I busted it early. They spent lots of time together figuring out successfully how to hide it not just from you, but from everyone in their office. That takes a lot of skill to pull off as office affairs are rarely secret long.

they went basically on vacations together.

They still work together and at least from the email are not just on a hi basis.

She knew for a week that he was to be at the same event. Even if it was huge, she was willing to risk you running into him before she would tell you that he was there. It is also really suspect that she "heard from a friend" that smacks of my daughters in there teenage years when finding booze in their closet that they were holding it for a friend.

She knows where he is going on vacation and when. Was this planned prior to d day? that was a long time ago.

My point is too many things just do not pass the smell test and you are so in the weeds and so want to believe that you might not be able to see.

I bet she was scared to death when you didn't text her back. She may really want this to work, but she needs to cut all ties. operative word is cut. not cut back which is what happened.

I hope this works out for you, but I just don't want see you make the same mistakes that we all have. that is one of there reasons we are still here posting.

NP5 I will read your thread as recommended and give some serious thought to your points. I know similar sentiments have been made in other posts but not in such a jarring manner. Probably what I needed to hear.

I can only imagine how frustrating it is to watch people make the same mistakes over and over again.

np5

I tell you this because if your wife is not taking drastic, concrete steps to do anything she can to make you feel safe, do show regret, remorse and contrition, then she is not yet reconcile material.

If NC is a requirement, and if she is bound to run into him working there, then she is saying to you, "My job, my money, my career, my convenience is more important than you or my children."

The question for her is 'what are you doing to make me feel safe?'.

np5

So why is she torturing you? Why do you have to put up with this emotional abuse? Why would she not do ANYTHING to help get you and her family out of pain?

The answer is: Because she is selfish and in denial to your pain and agony. She is in denial that she is tearing apart your family.

You both need to see it like this and you both need to take immediate and dramatic action to purge this poison. Believe me when I say that delaying and sucking it up will only hurt you and your family and even your wife more.

Instead of a 2-3 year recovery, it will take 5-6 or never. I say this because I delayed and pondered and gave chance after chance for her to turn around and stop the affair. It did not stop until I finally told her I was divorcing her. Only then did she stop. I signed myself up for the 5+ year recovery plan timetable as a result.

Good luck 20yrsin. Get serious about the GPS, the VAR and the polygraph. Your wife is still in denial to the depth of her brokenness and the pain she has signed your family up for. She has a long, long way to go yet.

I do want her to self reflect and try and explain why she had such a panic attack over the whole race disclosure and me delaying a response by a very short time.

M1965, stevesn, and many others had pointed to the fact that she still has feelings for him and obviously seeing each other is making it impossible for those to be exorcised.

I will be discussing the current scenario and 'no contact' with her further. Thought there were some positive signs but at the same time I need to be pragmatic.

The motivation for 'no contact' is the toxicity he represents to our future. I need her to understand that and demonstrate that understanding.

Applying for jobs is a good thing. There needs to be a plan b if the jobs don't pan out.

'I need to demonstrate', 'I need to do'.

No. You don't. I too just reading NP5's thread and what got me was that for so long he was the only one trying to make material steps. SHE needs to make you feel safe.

Another takeaway is that stuff only started seeing the light of day and happening when divorce was put into the table. I'm two weeks away from winning my prediction that there was never going to be a job transfer. You need to use these two weeks to prepare for the next stage. You need to see a lawyer ago understand your rights. That's it, just information gathering. When these new jobs magically don't come through in two weeks then it should be her saying 'since I can't make you safe still working here I have no choice but to leave'. You need legal representation in place in the event she doesn't.

Listen, a lot of us here have seen a lot of stuff. You like to think affairs are unique. They're not. Everyone is just saying there are a significant amount of red flags that her and her boyfriend are playing you. The affair may be on ice while this blows over, but rest assured it's ready to go once the ice thaws.

It's why she simply cannot be working with him. In two weeks if those jobs don't solidify then she needs to not be working there anymore.

There isn't another option. And if she's not the one recommending it you have to deal with the reality she's not in Remorse.

Also the basis for No Contact isn't toxicity. Her not recognizing the toxicity is a leading signal she is not in remorse.

The basis for No Contact is because you don't trust a damn word she says. Don't be shy to lay it out exactly like that. You should not be doing the work for her now. You neeeed to clearly convey boundaries and THATS IT.

Don't even risk the possibility of being played for a sucker and letting the "good" doctor play with your wife's emotions at work. NC is damn hard even under ideal circumstances. Your wife has to leave that job immediately, period, end of story.

It may affect your finances, but if your marriage goes down the drain, a short term loss of income will seem like a drop in the bucket in comparison.

[This message edited by Limboaz at 2:28 AM, June 20th (Tuesday)]

Hi 20yrs,

notperfect5's post did use some strong analogies, but sometimes they need to be used to make a point. If you have no luck communicating the reasons why the OM is not just 'someone like her, who made bad choices', I honestly think you should use np's analogies to shake her out of her self-serving delusions.

I did write one of my trademark rants, but I realised that it would be much simpler to say that the ongoing problem seems to be that you and your wife have very different views of the affair. And it is impacting on every aspect of your attempts to fix things.

Your view is that it was a serious, sustained assault on you, the kids, the marriage, the family, and the future, launched by a team that consisted of your wife and the OM. Your wife sees it as a couple of bad decisions that ought to be forgotten about so they do not spoil a nice day out.

So when you say...

I do want her to self reflect and try and explain why she had such a panic attack over the whole race disclosure and me delaying a response by a very short time.

...I am not sure what you expect her self-reflection to be. She thought it was fine to cheat on her husband and children for a year and a half. She thinks she and the OM are two perfectly nice, stand-up people who really did nothing wrong, are not guilty of anything other than a couple of little mistakes. That's all. No need to keep dwelling on it. No need to keep bringing it up.

With a warped outlook like that, what will the product of her contemplation be? "Me and the OM had a lovely time for a year and half, but for some reason you are all bent out of shape about it. I can't see why you can't just be happy for me having had a lovely time, and now we just carry on like nothing happened."

I don't think she has enough self-knowledge and insight to say that, but it seems to be the attitude that you keep meeting repeatedly. She does not want to 'own' the horrible thing she did, nor the any of the ongoing consequences of it. And she cannot condemn the OM without condemning herself. But for YOUR personal healing, what you need is for her to start apologising for what she did to you, and to admit that what she really did goes far beyond bland, bloodless, self-excusing phrases about making bad choices. Until she takes on board what infidelity really is, in all its 'glory', she is going to keep treating the whole thing as a minor matter.

For you, it is something rather different. She may be starting to understand that, given her panic-stricken, begging message about concealing the race information, but that could be because she knows how close to breaking point you are, not because she sees anything wrong in what she did, nor that she understands the true way that you feel. If she had any idea, there would have been no concealment in the first place.

Her skewed perspective on the OM and the affair keep causing these things, because she has such a deluded, muddle-headed, self-exonerating view of it. Until she sees it as something dirty, horrible, shameful, and an act of gross betrayal of you and the children, she will never see the OM in his proper light, nor understand the reason why she has to do so much to redeem herself after attacking her own marriage for a year and a half.

Look at her response when you told her you felt she had ended the marriage when she started bedding down with the OM; she didn't see it that way at all. And yet there's those pesky marriage vows, with all that stuff about forsaking all others, loyalty to one another...She obviously wasn't listening to herself speak when she said all those things on your wedding day, or maybe she had her fingers crossed behind her back.

Maybe you should start going on Tinder and Ashley Madison, and see if she thinks it's fine for YOU to start sleeping with other people. You may find that while she thinks it's fine for her to do it, you are her husband, and she demands absolute fidelity from you. Funny how peoples' minds work, isn't it?

It would be a risky experiment, but I wonder what she would say if you said that a female friend of yours has suggested an open marriage might be better for you, given that your wife has cheated, so that you can have the same fun that your wife feels entitled to. Rock her world a little bit, and let her know that what goes around comes around. And the friend that you say suggested it must be female; your wife will immediately pick up on that, and all its implications!

20yrsin,

Your and my affair experience are quite different. I thought my wife had an inappropriate friendship for about a year and I was trying to convince her it was not right. I tried and tried to convince her it was wrong and that she just couldn't see it or understand my perspective. Slowly, over a year, I turned up the heat, trying to convince her of the wrongness while she rebutted. In actuality, she was screwing him the whole time and just playing me for a fool.

You, from what I read, found out of the physical affair and your wife broke it off.

But I see other similarities that very much concern me.

I see that both our wives do not see at all the gravity of what they have done. (mine now mostly does, but not then). I see that both of us are giving eighth measures, quarter measures, third measures to responses that demand(ed) full shock and awe to motivate corrective action.

Now maybe you did that 7 months ago. Maybe you blew up her world and she had her come to Jesus moment and fully grasps the life-changing agony to you and your family.

But she isn't acting like she did or does.

Some can flip on a dime and get it. Others take many months or even a year or more (like my wife).

The question for her is 'what are you doing to make me feel safe?'.

My wife made me feel safe for a good while. The PTSD symptoms went away and she encouraged me to focus on getting better because the family needed a strong dad. I did and I got better and she said things and did things that made me feel safe and loved.

But I did see that she didn't have much regret or remorse. She downplayed it all and never shed a tear for me. The OM was here and there and would occasionally interact with our friends and run into our children. I didn't like it but it was just an EA. No sense in blowing up the world. Why tear everything apart unnecessarily when she "understood" my pain and "promised" to not talk with him again.

But she kept fucking him.

It was all a show. Sure I felt better. I did feel safe. I had the GPS and I stopped using it. I listened to her words of assurance and was love bombed into submission.

The issue to me is remorse and contrition. Here is an excellent article on it: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=586809

To get true change, to get true remorse and contrition, you need to have a shattering or breaking down of the self. If she is still saying "Hi" to him, if she is still hiding information or working in the same building, then she is still not broken down.

This is so important that a few months ago (three and a half years after the first DDay for me) I asked my wife to move into the basement for a few weeks and confess to our children. She did so and it broke her to pieces.

Why did I do that? Because being remorseful and contrite means making atonement for the agony and injustice inflicted upon your spouse. I had shielded my wife from all the fallout of her horrible acts. I absorbed it all and it burned inside me. Sometimes you just need to let the consequences fall where they should and they should feel the fallout that they deserve.

waitedwaytoolong took a similar path, only to realize after a number of years that he couldn't live without fallout and atonement.

Your wife needs to say goodbye to her cozy place. Why? Because she deserves to see and feel consequences for her sins. When you absorb them for her (by watching her drive off to spend the day in a building with her lover) you deny her the very necessary consequences of her actions. Consequences that are essential to her breaking and rebuilding a new and better person.

Now my wife is back in our bedroom again after a period of atonement and reflection. She has had a taste of the consequences that would have befallen her, had I not sacrificed my pride, honor, self-respect. Forgiving others can come at a terrible price to the self. I wear the badge of cuckold that my wife gleefully nailed on my chest. She needs to understand the pain I endured to hold my family together, if only just a little bit.

20yrsin, you can give your wife some days or weeks to find a new job. You can. It's your life. But when the aforementioned time is up, you need to tell her, "No more hanging around your lover, stealing glances, or exchanging pleasantries. This is your last day. Walk in and explain to your boss that you have committed adultery with another employee, and in order to save your family, you must resign. Then you pack up your things and leave."

No more half measures. No more accommodating. No more taking the arrows. The pain of ones' own consequences is good medicine when it motivates change within a broken person to fix themselves.

[This message edited by notperfect5 at 11:08 AM, June 20th (Tuesday)]

20 yrs - I have been fairly quiet this thread, as I see you are getting good quality advice from others.

Listen to NP5. Yes the A's your wives chose were different, but buddy there are strong universal truths to A's, and especially cheating women.

You can learn from NP5, as he learned from us. I was all over him and called him out for his fear, his passiveness, and his inability to see what was in front of him.

Fear of losing what you have already lost is stopping you from moving forward with clear firm boundaries that are nothing out of the ordinary and certainly what anyone would expect from their partner.

Stand up for you, for your rights, and be ready to bring down the hammer, because until she experiences very real and strong consequences she isn't going to give this much effort at all.

Stand up for you, for your rights, and be ready to bring down the hammer, because until she experiences very real and strong consequences she isn't going to give this much effort at all.

Tush, you sure did try to help me, but I was far too passive for far too long, and my recovery was sabotaged by my own inaction. There are days that I feel the betrayal I did to myself hurts more than my wife's.

20yrsin, here are some rights that Tush is talking about... I forgot where they came from:

Betrayed Spouses Bill of Rights

In a world where a marriage is as likely to end as not, we sometimes forget what a partnership is in the early days after discovery of infidelity. We lose ourselves in the desperation to hold onto your loved one. Remembering your rights will help you no matter which path your marriage takes.

1- You have a right to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. By having an affair, your spouse has closed off the relationship with you and opened one with the OP (other person). You have a right to insist this is reversed for your healing and to assure that loyalties have been realigned.

2- You have the right to trust- but verify. Trust has been broken, ‘snooping’ is not snooping. It is verifying that someone proven to be a liar, sneak and cheat has changed their ways. Like an addict, a WS(wayward spouse) will often go back to their emotional fix. You have a right to verify this is not happening.

3- You have the right to insist there are only two people in the marriage. That choice was made when you made vows to each other. Even a moment with a third person is too much. You owe your WS no time to ‘think about it’. There’s a marriage or there’s none.

4- You have a right to know who the OP is, the flip of this is you do not have a right to harm or harass this person. Hold yourself to a better standard than the OP did.

5- You have the right to choose to give the gift of reconciliation or to divorce. You have the right to take some time to make that choice. If you one day realize you cannot live with the truth of what has been done, you have the right to walk away.

6- You have the right to insist your WS gets STD testing done and to see the results. Even if the WS claims it has not gotten physical, as many WSs will admit to “only a kiss” when it has gone much further.

7- You have the right to insist that your WS initiates and honors NC (no contact) immediately. You have a right to have input and to be a witness to how NC is established.

8- You have a right to set and enforce boundaries. This is not blackmail or any of the other negative words your WS might use. This you protecting yourself.

9- You have a right to hold onto evidence for as long as you need it to feel safe. Your WS has created an atmosphere of risk and danger. It is natural to have a safety net to counteract what has been brought into your marriage.

10- You have a right to know who your WS’s friends are and the nature of their interactions. If it is kept a secret, it is not healthy for the marriage and therefore something is amiss.

11- You have the right to out the affair to anyone you deem will help you and/or your marriage. This is not your secret to keep, this is not your shame to hold. You owe no protection to those that failed to protect you.

12- You have a right to heal on your timeline. As long as you are making steady progress, you are healing. It is a slow process and a WS that says things along the lines of, “You’ll never get over this!” does not have a full grasp of the damage betrayal causes. This is a healing process that takes from 18 months to five years.

13- You have a right to yell, cry, fall apart and otherwise handle this in any way that relieves some of the devastating pain, shock and loss of trust. Your world has been turned on its end. You do not have the right to physically, verbally or otherwise abuse your spouse.

14- You have the right to insist on a true marriage. A marriage of partners, where you love, honor and protect each other. If you feel your marriage is missing one of these components, either fixing it or leaving are your only two options. You don’t have the right to cheat and/or turn someone else into a betrayed spouse.

15- You have a right to love yourself. Often the betrayed have forgotten themselves as an individual. This is the optimum time to remind yourself that you are unique and lovable in your own right. That as much as you might love your spouse, you should love yourself enough to refuse any sort of mistreatment.

20yrsin,

Obviously there's a lot to absorb here, but one aspect that does not seem to have been discussed is exposure. There is an old saying about sunlight being the best disinfectant, and it is often applied to reason why exposure of affairs helps to destroy them.

The reasons are simple and straightforward. By nature, affairs 'live' in a twilight world of lies and deception, running under the surface of everyday life like a submarine that must not surface for fear of being detected. What happens to a submarine when it is forced to the surface? Nothing good, as any sailor will tell you.

When you force an affair to the surface, and into everyday life, the fantasy bubble in which it existed is burst. And the actions it enclosed and hid from view are suddenly on view to everyone. The secret is out. It exists in the real world, and it becomes more 'real' with every person who is told about it. It cannot be minimised, and many eyes are suddenly on people who had a very good reason to remain unnoticed.

There are countless threads here that illustrate the disinfecting quality of exposure, but it also has an added benefit for the betrayed spouse. It increases their support team, because as people find out what happened, they naturally want to help the victim of the affair. This really helps in cases where the wayward spouse is still in their fantasy world, because while they can try and argue with their betrayed spouse about the nature of what they did, it is much harder to minimise and downplay what happened if there are more people asking them what the hell they thought they were doing, and kicking their behind back to the straight and narrow.

At the moment, it is just you trying to get your wife to understand what she did, and what she needs to do to fix things. So she can dodge and prevaricate, avoid, deny, and give promises that she does not live up to. It would be a different picture if her parents were aware of what she did, and how you are now struggling to save the marriage in the face of her refusal to accept the seriousness of what she did. I imagine they would not greet the news happily, and they might just become very valuable allies for you in the fight to change her perception of what she did. I don't think they would have much time for their daughter destabilising their grand-childrens' home and describing a long affair as a few bad choices. And for her, feedback from them would be very hard to ignore. If you expose the affair to your parents and family, you will have more people who will be ready to support you, and you wife will actually have to face some consequences when she has to look all of the people who know what she did in the eyes.

In short, why hide what she did? You are struggling with it, and she is acting like she barely did anything of any significance. Although you are in this forum, the only voice your wife is hearing that is questioning her actions is yours. Imagine if it was yours, her parents', your parents and family, and maybe even some family friends that you trust to be friends of the marriage? Her delusions about the magnitude of what she did would be considerably harder to maintain.

And if you expose to HR, the issue of your wife working with the OM would be solved instantly. HR would be much less comfortable with that cozy arrangement than your wife and her mutual friends seem to be.

[This message edited by M1965 at 12:53 AM, June 21st (Wednesday)]

I am starting to get it, the issue with passivity and half measures, it is definitely out of my comfort zone but I am going to stretch myself and be more clear on what the requirements are for recovery and reconciliation.

tushnurse

You can learn from NP5, as he learned from us. I was all over him and called him out for his fear, his passiveness, and his inability to see what was in front of him.

Fear of losing what you have already lost is stopping you from moving forward with clear firm boundaries that are nothing out of the ordinary and certainly what anyone would expect from their partner.

Stand up for you, for your rights, and be ready to bring down the hammer, because until she experiences very real and strong consequences she isn't going to give this much effort at all.

The pages I have read from np5s thread (I see your posts there) do have an eerie familiarity to them. I want to believe my wife is trying her best and focus on the good things she is doing. However I know there are issues and rugsweeping and it needs to be dealt with.

I tell myself I am ready to go my own way but I suppose to date my actions speak louder and I have not demonstrated this consistently. It is starting to come, in each of the 'confrontations' we have had so far. I have outlined consequences but the red flag everyone is calling out is still in play.

notperfect5

Your wife needs to say goodbye to her cozy place. Why? Because she deserves to see and feel consequences for her sins. When you absorb them for her (by watching her drive off to spend the day in a building with her lover) you deny her the very necessary consequences of her actions. Consequences that are essential to her breaking and rebuilding a new and better person.

The workplace issue came up today. The third job application which was due today will not be submitted. It is a sr. management job and this particular position didn't seem like a good career move to her. While I wanted to wait a day or two to have the conversation about the need to get out soon, it started to happen this evening. As noted there are two applications in the hopper which are lateral moves while this third is a promotion and not a good fit apparently.

(paging sharkman)

We had a very quick conversation on this. kids heard pieces of it as we were in transition from work to activities, stopping for a moment to eat dinner and change.

I told her that she had to get out of there.

She said she is looking everyday for the right opportunity. She has already passed on another one that wasn't the right fit. I will note that most of the other opportunities, this one included, would still have her traveling to same area but would be in a different building.

Obviously much better then current situation but not as significant as actually being in different city.

I suggested maybe she should talk to her boss or HR about a change. I am not sure she fully got what I meant with that comment but I do think she was finding this suggestion upsetting.

She said she will avoid OM like the plague. She will report to me weekly, daily whatever it takes.

She said if the location change we both want doesn't pan out in the next couple months she will take a lateral that will get her out of the division and the building/ floor she is on.

I said that is too long and that we needed to talk further about this.

We were starting to run late for things at this stage and the middle child announced she heard us talking. Gleefully I would say as she is always in trouble herself lol and would love to have dirt on her parents I suppose. Poor kids, they have no idea really.

After we both left the house she sent me a text as we were dividing and conquering at multiple kid activities.

'I love this family and you. I am learning what to do when I feel lost or stressed or fearful. I am a great researcher - we both know that and I got this'.... made a little joke after this about some of the positive changes she is making.

She is doing a lot to self improve etc, and its evident in many of our interactions. More thoughtful, engaged etc.

I responded I can tell you are a better person, that is a positive.

Then I came back with ...

'you should also research on recovering from and healing after infidelity. this feels like a big blind spot for you. I know you want to move forward but we cant until we get this all sorted. Otherwise it will always be there, undermining the most important thing we need to have - a strong foundation.'

she came back with

'i'm trying to do things right. i might not be doing it perfectly but im trying.'

It was a bit subdued this evening when we all reconvened from activities. I left it for now. She is often exhausted and needs to sleep at least 8 hours or will get sick.

I will follow up on the earlier discussion about the workplace.

We need to talk through what happens if the two jobs that 'get you out of dodge' fall through.

I already suggested HR and the manager so we will talk through what this means in more detail.

I will emphasize that I can't take much more of her being in the same office and therefore quick action will be needed. We both have weeks off during July so that will be a week out of the office for each of us. I think I will give her to the end of july.

I will book a mediator appointment for August 1st to draw up a separation agreement. If she hasn't got herself out of that office by then, somehow, that will be the consequence. She will have made her choice.

She will not be out of there by August 1st. All of this 'working on herself' is window dressing, it's designed precisely so you can question this yourself

She may even have a loose determination to actually not continue the affair at this point. That doesn't mean that she will not continue the affair. She is/was deeply in love with him, has absolutely no boundaries and sees him every day.

Best case you have an alcoholic who is saying that they never want a drink again yet continues to work at the vodka factory (and refuses to quit). Worst case, her and her boyfriend are having a good chuckle over this.

Setting a deadline is an amazing step you've made! The additional color I'm giving you is to applaud the decision but also to maybe look at it differently. At this point you can't force her to do or think anything. Saying "Because of what you did I cannot trust that the affair is still not continuing. I'm taking steps to extract myself from this situation. If you are not out of there by August 1st then my only option will be to protect myself and what is left of my family.'

By providing a consequence you're forcing her to adhere to you. By providing an action all you are doing is allowing the wayward the ability to give it a half measure, or to trick you, or to place blame elsewhere, to rug sweep, etc.

You immediately end this tug-of-war game. She's probably going to cheat on you again and you have absolutely no way to confirm this except through the promises from a person who is very comfortable lying to you and your children.

20yrsin

You know what we think. The deadline should have been June 1. Now it should be July 1. Instead it's being extended again to Aug 1. And you haven't even made that official yet.

She also shouldn't be staying at the same company. She must quit now and take time off to work on your M and then work to find a job elsewhere. This has been months where she still sees this guy every day. That truly is beyond unacceptable.

Have you guys put in any real work on your marriage? You seem to just really give it only "lip service". Have you ever asked for a full timeline of what she did with the OM? Listing every time they had sex? Where they did it? What positions? What things she did that she never has done with you?

You may say you don't want that but I think in your case YOU NEED THAT to make you realize the severity of what happened. I think in your mind you've turned it into "they held hands and went for ice cream a few times". And she needs to feel the pain of telling you what she did. Make her say those words. Get the kids out of the house for a day and go thru it.

Have you told anyone in your circle of family or close friends? The affair grows in the darkness. Enlist your closest to help you thru this tough time and make her see the seriousness of her actions.

Have you both done any reading?

Order these two books online and begin reading them together if you have not already.

- Not "Just Friends"

- How to help your spouse heal from the Affair

If she is such a great "researcher" she should have read those books already.

She was going to get an IC. What happened with that. You should both be talking to ICs.

A Remorseful spouse should truly want to do anything for the BH. Not I promise "I will tell you every interaction " I have with AP. She shouldn't be having any interactions because she should have been out of there months ago.

In IC you can work on why you cannot seem to ask for what you need. Why she as the adulterer is running the ship here.

"She's got this"? She sure does. She just strung you along for another 6 weeks where she can still be with Loverboy.

Have you ever truly shown her how much she hurt you by falling in love and essentially living the fun parts of life with this POS? Does she even think of him as a POS yet, stealing her marriage away from her? Doesn't seem like it because there have been no consequences for her. Just a hubby who appears "a little upset".

He stole and she gave away the most precious parts of what your marriage is all about. And you seem to not be very mad about it.

You don't have a remorseful wife. You have one that is juggling her two lovers.

Again sorry to be so blunt but we all feel so bad watching you struggle here.

You are at least facing toward the correct direction now, but you have to start moving your legs to get anywhere. Please get them going.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:24 AM, June 21st (Wednesday)]