SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Not to t/j too much, but thanks, Heart.

I think at the crux, it comes down to empathy. There are some people who just don't deserve their BS's compassion, but for the ones who do, it seems to me that the infidelity is countered to some degree by other good aspects of their character and history. IOW, they've already invested enough into the relationship and marriage that the broken trust doesn't completely break the bank.

There's a book called, What Makes Love Last?: How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal by John Gottman. In it, the author gives quizzes to measure your trust metric. Despite answering in the affirmative such questions as "has your spouse cheated?" and "do you think your spouse will cheat?", my trust metric was still astonishingly high. In other areas of the relationship, my fWH was viewed by me as "trustworthy". What you have at that point is an aberration in an otherwise pretty solid character.

Not saying I'd have hung around long enough to find out what this aberration was if it hadn't been so glaringly obvious that he was in trouble though. I was already swinging for the fence on divorce when it occurred to me that his behavior had been so self-destructive as to prove there was more going on internally than simple garden-variety selfishness. Like I said, that's what slowed the flight response.

ff... sorry for the slow reply. I have been busy.

I think at the crux, it comes down to empathy.

This is, in a single sentence, my FIRST answer.

I try to think really hard before judging someone whether or not I am guilty of a similar misbehavior. For whatever reason, it's really important for me to not be a hypocrite about anything. This means, more or less, that I spend a lot of time looking at my flaws as a person.

Is my wife a horribly flawed person? Yes. Absolutely.

And you know what? So am I. I have at least as many flaws as the next person.

I know that people get sick of me talking about my depression, but my depression made me to be an awful awful person. I was very difficult to live with. That doesn't excuse my wife's affair, but neither does her affair excuse my depression/poor behavior.

Also, to be honest, my second answer is that I am willing to give almost anyone a second chance if they ask and their request seems genuine. She asked that I try to reconcile and it has seemed genuine the entire time. If it didn't seem genuine, I'd like to think that I'd be divorced by now.

I think a lack of empathy played a big role in why I had an affair. I was only concerned about what I wanted and if I wan't going to get it from my wife, well then it was ok to go somewhere else. I am constantly floored at the total disregard I had for my family. The level of selfishness one has to have to cheat is mind-blowing.

Hindsight is 20/20, ff. Huge difference when you've changed the inner monologue, right?

The rationalizations and justifications just can't stand up to walking that proverbial mile in your spouse's shoes. Once you've really experienced that perspective, you've seen something you can't un-see.

I've struggled with understanding this and am hoping some BS can tell me how they can offer the gift of R? I realize that I am the epitome of hypocrisy when I say if the roles were reversed and I was the BS, I don't think I could offer that gift. FOR ME ONLY, I see that as a flaw in my character. To be clear, I am in no way criticizing anyone who chooses not to. I would like to get to an emotional level where I would have the capacity to show that kind of grace to someone.

Any insight would be appreciated.

A lot of answers have to do with grace and empathy.

I think we naturally have a certain aptitude for empathy, some more than others. But we can all work to develop our empathy by changing how we think and react. My husband has worked hard to develop empathy after our MC told him he was low in it, much to his shock.

I too work hard to be the kind of person I want to be. I attend IC. I read positive things. I surround myself with positive people who are outwardly focused. I join organizations that focus on helping others. I read about poverty and injustice. Basically, I put all that stuff in front of my face and then my heart reacts. If I spent all my time shopping or drinking or binge-watching reality tv or whatever else people do to pass the time, I bet I would be less empathetic than I am.

I was able to offer the gift of R because I already had a very steady sense of self, thanks to a healthy upbringing and resilience. I knew that his infidelity was *his* issue. It wasn't an insult to me or a reflection on me. It was his shame, not mine. Now certainly I needed A LOT of good-will gestures to move past the knowledge that he had given so much of what he promised only to me to someone else. And most of all, I needed him to put in the kind of effort I was putting to be a better, more insightful, more giving person. But that wasn't just for R that's because that's what I want in a partner. I don't want to be unequally yoked to someone who doesn't have the same values that I do. But can I move past his affair without requiring that he wear a scarlet A around his neck for the rest of his life? Yes. We are all more than the worse thing we've ever done, and I can think of many things worse than an affair.

If you want to get to that emotional level, you do it by changing. Don't keep yourself in the same old patterns and situations that reinforced your selfish choices. Be proactive in growing as a person. You may never turn into Mother Teresa, but you can always become more gracious and more forgiving than you are today.

In short, the knee-jerk feeling that you couldn't overcome infidelity may seem like it's from a very large ego, but in actuality it's a large ego that can move on without taking someone else's crap choices personally. It's a fragile ego that imagines the only way to save face is to abandon the cheater.

[This message edited by swmnbc at 10:30 AM, July 11th, 2017 (Tuesday)]

The rationalizations and justifications just can't stand up to walking that proverbial mile in your spouse's shoes. Once you've really experienced that perspective, you've seen something you can't un-see.

It's interesting that you say that. I had a shitty childhood; I've always said, well these people have no idea what I've been through or how hard life could be. I really never looked at it from their point of view and it's unsettling to learn that about yourself.

A lot of answers have to do with grace and empathy.

I think that both are at the core of what gives people the ability to offer the gift of R. I've spend the last few days looking at my wife and really seeing her for who she truly is. To this day, she still amazes me. She is so thoughtful and giving and I'm so lucky to have her.

This thread has really giving me some insight and a lot to think about. To all those who have responded, thank you.

I guess in my case, I am focused on the overall picture-the mingling of our families, the familiarity we have with each other; we have both seen the worst as well as the best of each other.

My WS made a (what he thought was) a heartfelt statement; he is a logical brain person, he told me that he was putting everything he had work/ money wise into these final work years of his so that I would be well taken care of, that it was his way of showing me he loves me.

I love him, sometimes I don't like him, but I love him, and our life.

Why I decided to give R a chance.

1. I still loved my WW

2. I still believed that deep down she still

loved me.

3. My WW complied with all the boundaries and

every condition that was set forth to ensure

my safety.

4. I saw true remorse and sorrow in her actions

instead of just her words for her A and the

ensuing pain and grief that it caused.

5. My WW became truthful and willing to discuss

her A whenever and for however long I chose

to discuss it.

6. If my WW was truly capable of change, I

didn't want that change to be enjoyed by

someone else.

7. 25 years together

8. The pluses outweighed the minuses

9. If R didn't work out I always had the option

to divorce her.

10. I was too emotional to make a rational

decision that soon after D-Day. I

determined that I would wait to make a final

decision once my emotions calmed. So in the

meantime, I would give R every chance and

then go from there.

11. I knew that if R didn't work, I could hold

my head up with the knowledge I didn't just

give up and had given myself every chance to

make it work.

Wishicouldfly, I haven't been on here long, but I do worry that coming to this site and seeing so much pain is only so helpful. I do appreciate the advice and perspective, but wallowing in past grief is not a good way to move forward IMHO.

It's finding the right balance between allowing yourself to grieve, while focusing on advice and perspectives that are constructive and positive.

For original poster, if you would not forgive someone for the same thing you are asking forgiveness for, you need counseling badly. You have elevated yourself and feelings above everyone else. The exact opposite of empathy, understanding and love.

Not a great place to start a relationship.

[This message edited by movingalonginme at 12:20 AM, July 17th (Monday)]

I am in no place to judge anyone. But I do disagree with your continued reference (if I'm understanding correctly) to your wife accepting R. My question would be, R for what? She has no reason to be in R as far as she knows. Maybe I'm misunderstanding and you are just amazed at her everyday generally speaking.

I, too, believe you are maintaining control over a person when, respectfully, I don't believe you have the right to do.

To answer your question, I would love to be the magnanimous BS, but my decision to stay (quite different from R) was not only that I love(d) him, and because of our 3 kids with issues from their birth mothers' addictions during pregnancy with them, but also because he is disabled, and I will not abandon him. He needs a caregiver. Also, we are much older, and have been swindled out of our life savings and could not afford to live separately.

Also, I feel that a person's actions do not entirely determine who they are. You seem to have such admiration for your wife, but it seems - not trust with truth. Maybe she would surprise you. At any rate, a person has a right to be well informed about their own life & choices.

You come here to interact , express your thoughts, and ask others for input. But your wife has no such options. I'm sad for her.

I wish no ill will for you, and I am sorry that while you have obviously made your decision to withhold the truth to your wife about her life, it seems to haunt you.

I hope for you that at some point you can come to a decision that you are TRULY comfortable / happy / content with.

Maybe you already have, but I get the feeling you are choosing to accept what you feel is the lesser of 2 evils - so to speak. It is my personal belief that one can never achieve true peace and happiness without complete truth and transparency in a situation like this.

My H has never been totally forthcoming, which is why we are together still - but by no means do I consider us R.

I guess it is a matter of what each of us have to choose for ourselves.

I hope you can make choices that can free you.

I totally agree with the above.

I know you, ff, will say that you did not say your wife was reconciling with you in your post. Yet you do post as if, in your mind, she is. Take the paragraph:

"I think that both are at the core of what gives people the ability to offer the gift of R. I've spend the last few days looking at my wife and really seeing her for who she truly is. To this day, she still amazes me. She is so thoughtful and giving and I'm so lucky to have her."

Anyhow, my reasons for attempting reconciliation, or at least not running away immediately, are that overall our life is not a bad one. Or marriage isn't BAD, if the marriage was shitty before DDay I would have left. But we get along alright.

Then the selfish reasons (by that I mean nothing to do with thoughts of WH at all) of wanting to keep the house, the financial security and above all stability for the kids. I don't want to unsettle them if I don't have to, and I don't want to only have them every other Christmas and so on just because HE made errors.

I always told my H that there was never an excuse to stray and if he did, I would leave him. He agreed likewise. The problem is, when making those statements, I had no idea what this would really be like. I don't consider our R to be an act of grace. We have a shared history, children, and are financially intertwined. Our youngest son is autistic and doesn't cope well with change. In all honesty, there would be no R, if not for my children.

I do not think you're a hypocrite for your stance, everyone is entitled to have their own line in the sand, but I just caution you about your belief. We never really know what we'll do or what we can handle until we're faced with a particular situation.

Frankly, I'm reconciling for the kids. Staying after being cheated on is certainly ego dystonic for me.

But you know what's even more ego dystonic? Watching my ex husband parade 20 year old idiots in and out of my kids' lives. What if he brings in some woman that molests them? Or hits them? Or just acts like a douche? What if my daughter watches her step mom get an eating disorder and she adopts that habit?

My parents got divorced and my mother remarried a man that abused her, then she abused me. She prolly cheated on my dad, and then continued to show shitty judgment. Divorce takes me out of the picture with the kids are with him. Hell no.

Cheaters show shitty judgment. I don't trust my kids with someone that shows shitty judgment.

Happily, my WH managed to straighten out his drama and he is now a great guy. Do I appreciate that like I should? Prolly not. Bridges were burned. Sorry, let me rephrase that- he burned those bridges. But I love my kids more than I hate him. So I'm trying. It makes it way easier that he's a good guy, mostly, now.

Plus, it's not like I want to date again. I got 99 problems but a dude ain't one.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 8:50 AM, July 17th (Monday)]

nme1

I do not think you're a hypocrite for your stance, everyone is entitled to have their own line in the sand, but I just caution you about your belief. We never really know what we'll do or what we can handle until we're faced with a particular situation.

I reread this thread over the weekend and did a lot of soul searching. One of the things that I tend to be guilty of (although I try very hard not to) is to speak in absolutes. Karma has a strange way of smacking you upside the head when you do.

Something very serious happened during this past week that made me really examine this. I realized that this wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker for me. I read a lot in JFO and trigger mightily when I see a BS waffling. I say to myself, "How can these people even think of allowing these cheaters back into their lives, WTF is wrong with them?" It suddenly occurred to be that I wasn't angry at them (BS), I was furious with the WS, and by extension myself, for committing this betrayal.

Good for you.

Not for being miserable. But for having the insight to see/feel wher your anger is truly aimed.

Even the harsh realizations are amazing, don't you think? When you can see something so clearly.

All any of us can do is to search, find, digest, and act.

You know, one of the things that sucks about this whole thing-

The betrayer has to become the BS's healer.

And your victim becomes the WS's healer, as well.

I think that is something you are missing from not telling. Frankly, I understand the reasons to not tell. There are moments that I wish I didn't know. They don't last long, but they are real. But knowing is kind of like finally finding out you have cancer. Now you know why you felt shitty and where to direct your efforts. And at least you know. It explains a lot, and validates your feelings as a BS.

But imagine this- imagine someone seeing you completely with your flaws and loving you. Like a mother loving a child, but even better because there is choice in this love. They see your evil parts inside and still love you, and they get why the evil is there. But they also see extreme beauty in you, as well.

It's a love that you won't ever experience, which has a depth that you can't understand until you're there.

The love that people think is love is just bullshit. Hormones and fantasy and youth. What I thought was love for my husband was no different than affair love; bullshit.

Having someone truly see you as a flawed but beautiful person and still love you is pretty wonderful, I imagine...... I feel that love for my husband.

So yeah, I can say I started to reconcile because of my kids. But I have this love for my husband now. It's pretty awesome, actually. He can call me and it's ride or die.

I've struggled with understanding this and am hoping some BS can tell me how they can offer the gift of R? I realize that I am the epitome of hypocrisy when I say if the roles were reversed and I was the BS, I don't think I could offer that gift. FOR ME ONLY, I see that as a flaw in my character. To be clear, I am in no way criticizing anyone who chooses not to. I would like to get to an emotional level where I would have the capacity to show that kind of grace to someone.

In the beginning I believe the reasons for a BS choosing R has nothing to do with empathy, grace or any other positive emotion, I know that's how it was (Speaking from my BS perspective). I was furious and just generally F'd up. And part of my willingness to reconcile had more to do with my engrained behavior like co-dependency, conflict avoidance etc. not out of some imagined goodness.

As the BS I was in the same marriage, but had all my own unique baggage and saw the marriage my own way. I wasn't a BS who had been perfect in every way but some how mistakenly picked this horrible person that betrayed me to marry and raise a family out of the blue totally surprised.

BS's R for many reasons, I have seen BS allow WW's time to fix there shit and then stay, I have seen them divorce and then remarry their WW. Some just like to keep the WW around to beat on because it feels good to the BS.

Even though I stuck around in R, didn't mean I was all in on the marriage, I still had all my issues before she cheated and had/have them for a long time after.

The choice usually has a lot of conditions, asterisks and rarely comes from a healthy and centered place. That doesn't mean that it doesn't end up healthy! Gotta start somewhere right?

What matters more IMO is what does the WW do regardless? Do you only do the hard work of fixing all your issues if you stay in the marriage? Is your recon work predicated on the decisions of your BS?

ff,

It depends on what you value the most at the time, and what you maintain hope for.

My reasons for reconciling with my wife changed through time.

I originally reconciled to prevent suffering to my kids, -an ignorant decision I know. I wanted to preserved our family. I grew up in a very stable home including living next door to my grandparents and I valued togetherness very high. My upbringing was great. If we divorced and my children suffered from it, their suffering would not be the result of me.

However, during the process, my wife stepped up and started to change, and I also started to learn how to see her changing. This allowed me to maintain hope, as my values changed.

Also, my compassion and empathy increased. I realized if I had grown up exactly like my wife, I would have cheated on her just the same. I strongly believe this. We are a product of our experiences. Breaking her family tradition was my new focus, and I maintain to this day that my wife will break it because of how she has changed.

Hello,

Well I decided to R for many reasons maybe some aren't so healthy or politically correct and I will probably be criticized but I believe in honesty so here it goes. (Some of these points do contradict themselves and seem disjointed, welcome to my mind lol)

No particular order but:

- WS is getting consistent IC every other week and is on antidepressants to deal with his clinical depression.

- I do still love him and something deep inside me has empathy for the life he endured as a child and I believe he is broken and he truly loves me.

- he is trying to change and understand the what and why

- even though he has short comings as a H he is a pretty awesome father to my DD.

- I refuse to down size into a townhome if he can get his shit together so that would be me moving out of state (DD would fly up one weekend a month and for the summer)

- I was finally serious about a D and didn't really care about him if he wasn't going to be serious (the first time I was a bubbling mess that rug swept)

- I am very competitive and we will be married 13 yrs next month I feel as though I failed and wasted my life.

- I am 43 and if I was 10-15 yrs younger than single life would be a different scene. (I have several friends that chose D and the grass isn't always greener)

- I feel old and tired I don't have the energy to move, sell the house deal with my DD issues with a divorce

Don't mean to make anybody mad and I realize that some of the reasons are not the textbook correct answers but that is truly why I chose to R.

We have good days and bad days and are taking one day at a time.

My IC has me concentrating for the moment: on the now, today not the past or the future. To make sure I recognize and acknowledge the growth in my DS the trying not just the f ups. This was a game changer for me. She said we will dig into the past more at a later time since he is still figuring himself out with his IC.

I still feel stupid and a moron at times for trying. I have a hard time with complete forgiveness.

Oh well one day at a time.

I think a lack of empathy played a big role in why I had an affair. I was only concerned about what I wanted and if I wan't going to get it from my wife, well then it was ok to go somewhere else. I am constantly floored at the total disregard I had for my family. The level of selfishness one has to have to cheat is mind-blowing.

Good insight.

Many, maybe even most BS think an affair is a deal breaker and divorce is absolute - before we have our dday. Then everything changes.

Reasons why we stay change over time. At first I stayed because I didn't want another man to have a hand in raising my daughters. Abuse from step dads is statistically high. But then my Ww helped me through my pain and we R and have a good life together 16 years later.

IMO a confession is the best way to go because it shows that you have enough respect for your BW to let her choose her destiny.

Confession shows you have empathy. It show that you take responsibility too.

I remain steadfast in my belief that the affair continues until there is a full confession. I also believe that R is impossible unless everything is out in the open.

ETA

I believe emotional intimacy is critical in the success of a marriage, and that cannot occur in an environment of lies.

[This message edited by nightmare01 at 10:33 PM, July 17th (Monday)]