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Pine, those are important questions from Bigger. The answers will indicate what you have to work with...or what you have to work against.

How does she describe her relationship with OM?

Now she describes her relationship as an inappropriate friendship.

Does she use the word affair to describe their relationship?

That very issue sparked 2-3 hours of conversation between us this morning. The day started off with me looking at an email from her which she sent to me yesterday with a 12-question test for whether or not a friendship should be considered an EA. She graded her relationship with OM at 6-6 on the quiz. I graded it at 8-4. I basically told her that from my perspective, there is no exact litmus test for what constitutes an emotional affair, but hitting even 6-6 including lying and deceiving to hide it from your spouse along with attempting to arrange a secret out-of-town rendezvous with OM are pretty good indicators that you were having at least an EA. We talked about the two questions where our perspectives differed, and she finally got ticked and took off back upstairs to get away. I gave her a couple minutes to cool off, then went up and continued the discussion. Managed to guide the conversation as calmly as possible and we actually ended up having a long, good conversation. Ultimately, she is really hung up on the word affair being used in reference to her "friendship."

Does she see it as inappropriate?

Yes.

Why did she see it as important that others at work didn’t know about their friendship?

I think that what she meant by that is that no others would suspect them of having a PA. I think everyone knows that were tight and hung out a lot. OM was referred to as her "work husband" and she as his "work wife." New terms to me, but I guess part of the modern day parlance. Looks like they may have taken the terms quite literally.

[This message edited by Pineapple at 10:41 PM, August 12th (Saturday)]

W is barely speaking to me now. Her last comment, after reading to me all the bad news about false positives and unreliability of polygraph tests that she could find, was this:

Sure, I'll take the test. If I get a false positive, go ahead and divorce me. If I pass, then maybe I'll divorce you.

Can't believe your getting this attitude it's as if your marriage is not a priority or you for that matter

Trying to tone down the deciet and cheating to make herself feel better is just so selfish

I think you have worn enough pain from without the wife minimalising her actions it might be time to hint at your not putting up with threats as if you are 2 neighbors arguing over a tree branch this is your marriage

Sure, I'll take the test. If I get a false positive, go ahead and divorce me. If I pass, then maybe I'll divorce you.

Sounds like preemptive manipulation, or an attempt to muddy the waters should she fail the poly. Don't be shocked if she refuses the poly at the last minute, and if that happens, it will pretty much confirm there was a PA.

I hope that I'm wrong for the sake of your M.

All this talk about false positives strikes me as utter nonsense. I'm sorry to say it Pine but in my experience liars are often terrible at thinking hard about what they would say if they were telling the truth.

What would the innocent, truthful person say?

I think they would say something like- " Listen, I'm completely innocent of having a PA. It didn't happen. I understand why you don't believe me since I was obviously lying about things, and so I'm glad I'll have the chance now to show you that I'm telling the truth and that is going to help us tremendously. Let's book it asap so we can put this part to bed."

I hope I'm wrong but I do think she is lying and setting you up for her expected failed poly.

It's starting to look to me that the only way the M survives is if I allow W to rugsweep the A.

I just had another talk with her. Just yesterday she was saying to me that she'd be glad to take the poly to give me peace of mind. Now she says that she was only open to it back when we were on vacation three weeks ago, but I've waited too long. She's calling it extreme, and wondering how many BSes would subject their WS to a polygraph. She says that most BSes just believe their WS and are able to reconcile. I couldn't make this shit up if I wanted. Fortunately I had a beer bottle to wrap my mouth around and start chugging so she couldn't see me smiling so much.

I have followed this thread from day one. I feel for you man. However, where is the 180 in all of this? It seems to me that you have been pursuing and engaging her from day one. For your own sanity please take a step back and start taking care of yourself. Stop asking. It will only cause you more pain. Schedule the ploy and let the results speak for themselves. This is coming from a place of concern for you. I can't imagine the torture that this TT has been to take. Peace, love, and blessings brother.

it getting worse clutching at straws with rug sweeping .reading this column lots of spouses gladly take a poly to prove innocents and regain the trust but shes making every excuse under the sun to avoid it .

Do you have a plan to accept their was physical cheating as this kind of denial almost casts the guilt

you are very smart to see the game being played here. How you stop all of this back and forth is to tell her 'thank you for agreeing to the poly. I'm very aware of their reliability and I'll take that into full consideration.'

You really need to be talking to your lawyer. There isn't much more shine to put on this. One thing she is not is remorseful. It doesn't matter if it was physical or not with an unremorseful spouse.

180. Disengage. Schedule Poly.

Prepare for the worst.

She is so utterly full of shit, a desperate coward. I would be shocked if she has the intestinal fortitude to confess in the parking lot.

IMO she will either:

1. Refuse the poly at which point you know it was a PA.

Or

2. She takes it and fails, at which point you know it was a PA. But with this option you have to listen to her blame false positives/negatives.

Ooh, I hate the term innappropriate friendship. That was the bullshit line my WH used on my for months. OW eventually sent the smoking gun to reveal it was a PA.

She sounds like the female version of my WH only I knew about their 'friendship' for months.

Look up the term gaslighting. This is one selfish woman.

Sex has stopped working to distract you and now you are taking the steps needed to find out the truth. She figured she could boink you into rugsweeping, you are saying "loved the sex ww, now its time to put your money where your mouth is". If everyone is right and she is lying her arse off then what other reaction can shr have other then manipulate and guilt you into submission. She thinks she has your long and curlys, don't be surprised if she starts sticking the nails in. If ever there has been a time to stand your ground and make it known you will no longer take her crap, it is now. See a lawyer, get information about what a divorce looks like for you. Arm yourself because if this is her attitude then she will play dirty. Whether your desired outcome is R or divorce one thing I can almost guarantee you, is strength and standing your ground will give you the best outcome in this!

Now she says that she was only open to it back when we were on vacation three weeks ago, but I've waited too long. She's calling it extreme, and wondering how many BSes would subject their WS to a polygraph.

WW thought that you would be placated by her agreeing to the poly, and she never really believed that you would actually follow through. It certainly appears that she is worried about more than just a false positive result on the poly, hence her sudden reconsideration.

I'm sorry Pine, but I now believe without a doubt, that her A was emotional as well as physical.

Ugh, can't freakin get to sleep. So the final exchange I had w/ W tonight regarding all of this was responding to her when she was fretting some more about the poly deciding her life.

I sat down in front of her, calmly placed my hands on her knees, looked her deep in the eyes, and said "the only thing that's going to decide the future of our marriage is what you've done and how honest you've been about it to me. Since you've told me everything, then you should have nothing to worry about." Then I got up and walked away.

Pine

If it were me and this was the attitude I was getting I would say, "i don't need a poly to know there was something more here, something physical. It hurts terribly that you'd rather live decades with a lie than starting our recovery with the truth".

"I could work on this marriage if I knew the truth, but since it appears you are unwilling to give me that, I'll be working on getting out of this M and moving forward. "

"I vow to coparenting with you cooperatively as best we can"

"The talk of polys is now over. It's time to move on. I won't bring it up again"

Don't discuss it any more. Implement the 180. Talk to a lawyer and file for D. That process can be put on hold anytime if she starts showing real remorse and brings you the truth.

Just imagine what rug sweeping will do to your mind over the next 2, 5, 10 years. Imagine what the continued talk of false positives will do to your psyche.

Maybe filing for D will give her the needed wake up call to finally be honest. Maybe not.

I know your kids will be upset. But you need to continue to enforce upon them the importance of honesty between husband and wife and if there is none, then two people aren't truly married anymore anyway.

Good luck.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:54 AM, August 13th (Sunday)]

Pine, she is completely delusional about no one at work thinking she was in an A. If they openly called each other work spouses and were constantly getting lunch, drinks, and everything else together than I can guarantee you people talked about it as soon as they left the room. It really does sound like she's lying.

When a WS is showing unremorseful and manipulative behavior, there's really only one strategy that works even for R to happen. You have to get tough. You have to make it clear that you expect compliance or she can hit the road. Set two big boundaries - the poly is a requirement for you to stay married to her and she absolutely must stop bringing the kids into this.

It's completely inappropriate for her to rope your kids into this. Of course they will do everything in their power to stop a D from happening. They will blame you if she fails. They will feel responsible for a D if it happens for not doing enough to stop it. She is dumping this huge burden on them without a second thought and it needs to stop.

I gotta say, Pine, admittedly I haven't been here nearly as long as some of the more experienced SI'ers, but in my time on SI I don't recall ever hearing this excuse for not taking a poly - the "Offer Ends [date]. While supplies last. See your local WS dealer for details" excuse.

You should go look in the mirror because I think it's possible there's an "I'm an idiot" sticker on your forehead that must be confusing her.

Apologies for the snark but her excuses have become increasingly ridiculous.

If I were in your position, I would not give up on the poly. Just from my perspective: I'm a lawyer and I negotiate deals for a living. You've gained the strong advantage on this poly point, and it's important one -- if she takes it and fails she can whine and cry all she wants for the next X number of years about how polys are inaccurate and unfair and she was nervous and the questions weren't clear yada yada, but the results ain't goin' away. She's trying everything possible to get you to give up on the poly and I see no reason to give up this major advantage you've achieved in getting her to agree to one.

I would schedule the poly immediately and then when the day comes just let her know it's time. Who knows? Maybe she'll refuse to attend (the date is inconvenient, she's not feeling well, she has to re-arrange her sock drawer - whatever it is), but there again you'll have your answer.

One other unrelated point I'd like to add - your WW is under a lot of pressure here. I can't recall whether this has been recommended or not, but this may be a good time for a VAR - she must be talking to somebody about what's going on with your insistence on her doing a poly. If I remember, maybe you said her car wasn't a good place for some reason? In any event, it can go in the room of your house where she spends time or anywhere else you think she would be on the phone confiding in someone - I think there's a decent chance she has a confidante she's confiding in in her efforts to dodge the poly. Just a thought for you to consider.

[This message edited by Ponus18 at 7:58 AM, August 13th (Sunday)]

These affairs are very standard. I'm quoting my post here - the 12th post in this thread

Her research of the poly will clearly tell her they they're not reliable.

She's already back pedaling. Trickle Truth straight from the dictionary. At least it's overt. If it wasn't you'd spend mo the ripping your hair out

So what else is standard at this point? She's still in touch with her boyfriend (office phone probably) and he has her all ruled up feeding her what to say about the poly.

Tell her one thing about the poly 'I'll spoke with the poly, I'll give you a sneak peak about the questions. The first one will be "have you contacted or been contacted by OM since NC was established"

Her face will be all the poly that you need to know. There are always a few moments of absolute truth on their faces

I sat down in front of her, calmly placed my hands on her knees, looked her deep in the eyes, and said "the only thing that's going to decide the future of our marriage is what you've done and how honest you've been about it to me. Since you've told me everything, then you should have nothing to worry about." Then I got up and walked away.

Pine, well played. All of your communication w/her last night. Not letting her end the conversations by going away. She truly doesn't know what to make of this New Pine she is seeing. So what you get is the middle school/high school tantrum of "if a pass maybe I'll divorce you".

Stay the course. You are doing the right thing. Continue to stand your ground.