SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey everybody. I have a stupid username and I'm new here. I started a thread in the JFO forum ("My Own Personal Hell") a few days ago that has been really helpful in sorting out my emotions. I just wanted to pop over here and post a new thread in case any waywards who aren't allowed to post in JFO wanted to chime in with any extra thoughts or whatever.

Without getting too redundant, this is my story (anyone who wants extra gory details can either ask them or skim the other thread mentioned above):

WW and I are both 32 years old. No kids. We've been together since we were 19. Been living together since we were 22. Been married since we were 29. WW had been having an affair for a year. DDday was June 30th.

On DDay, the STBXW of the OM contacted me with the evidence: Love letters written by my WW to her husband. I knew who the guy was and that he was a friend of my wife's, but had no idea they were engaged in all this. The words my wife wrote to him were soul-crushing to read ("'I love you' doesn't capture it. It's a more complicated, nuanced thing than just love... something soul-deep." "A part of me wants nothing more than to run off with you and see where this madness takes us. ... That part of me fantasizes about starting over with you-- arguing over the thermostat and falling asleep on your shoulder, wasting hours upon hours chatting about the most mundane things")

Since DDay I got TT'd like crazy as her story changed and changed. I eventually came to find out that they'd been meeting up for sex regularly, including once in my home while I was out of town. They also would go out to dinner together, go on long walks, buy each other gifts, send each other sexy texts / fantasies, tell one another that they loved each other, etc. etc. One particularly wounding detail was when I found out that, every single morning for the past 8 months, she'd been sending him a photo of herself before I could see her so that he could be the first one to know what she's wearing. Talk about ouch. Another was how she'd often bring home bread baked by the OM and ask me to taste it so she could give him feedback on the recipe. Oof. Just... cruel, vile stuff.

Anyway, since being caught, WW has become absolutely obsessed with trying to get me not to leave her. However, I feel like she's been showing signs of regret more than actual remorse. She has this way of talking word salads to compartmentalize her behavior... telling me with each instance how she didn't *really* love OM; she was just insecure and doing what he wanted. She didn't *intend* to have sex with him in our house; it just sort of happened. She was *right about* to end the affair; I had just found out before she could finish it off. Stuff like that. It makes her come across as very disingenuous.

I suspect a lot of this is her lying to herself. I think she can't bear to be judged by her actions, since her actions are so terrible. So, for every little decision, she thinks it's important to explain to me the context and what was running through her head at the time. It's a baffling, painful ordeal and just prolongs my hurt, frankly. Plus, as she continues to show me that she is in denial, it makes me more resolute that D is the only answer.

My question to the waywards on this site is: Forget your BS... How long did it take you to stop lying to *yourselves*? I can tell WW really is trying to take responsibility and own up to her actions, but I can also tell that she's fighting it. Every new little detail or tidbit that comes out becomes a negotiation where she tries to explain herself.

Does anybody see themselves in my WW? And if so, how did it work out for you?

(btw, WW does have a thread of her own in the Wayward Side forum. We're allowing each other privacy by not reading one another's posts. Please be respectful of that wish.)

It took a while to see things clearly. It did not happen overnight.

Can I ask for a little bit of background on your W or her family? Any red flags you feel you should have seen?

Can I ask for a little bit of background on your W or her family? Any red flags you feel you should have seen?

Red flags? You mean in general from our life together before the A even started?

Wayward lie and try to say things that put them in a better light.

I didn't Intend to have sex with him in our house

Bullshit, seriously, it the excuse based on "it just happened"

Affairs just don't happen. Sex just doesn't happen.

She was just insecure...

This is a surface excuse for having the affair.

Gently you are still being trickle truthed if you are still finding out details.

Reconciliation requires truth, no lies of omission, no holding back of the facts in order "to not hurt you"

If she hasn't read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda McDonald, then tell her to buy the damn thing and read it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/145055332X/refcm_sw_r_cp_api_qagUybCZE9ZZT

The reason I tell you to tell her to buy it is that you will see if she actually will even take action on this small request.

If she is so obsessed with you not leaving her then you need to figure out what you need in order to heal.

Yes, like she has always needed lots of affirmation? Or she was obsessed with getting married? Or she's always been a flirt?

Yes, like she has always needed lots of affirmation? Or she was obsessed with getting married? Or she's always been a flirt?

Not obsessed with marriage by any stretch and she was never a flirt. But she DID require a lot of affirmation. Unfortunately, I'm not the type of guy to say "I love you" very much. Heck, I'm not the kind of guy to say any compliment unprompted. It actually became a catch phrase of hers over our 13-year relationship that she would look at me and say, "Tell me something nice." Then, in those instances, I would think for a moment and tell her a compliment. (They always had to be "new" nice things that she had never heard me say before.)

Thing is, I'm just not comfortable getting all gushy and saying lovey things. I'm just not. However, I felt that I had made up for that in actions: I would surprise her by showing up to her office for lunch together at least once a week. I would take her on impromptu trips. I would get her little gifts. Stuff like that.

I thought those actions were satisfying her needs for affirmation. Turns out they weren't, and she started an EA-turned-PA with a coworker who said all the things she had wished I would say. She really, really likes compliments, I guess.

The minute that I read about serial cheating or early marital cheating I think, "That's a person that needs a HUGE amount of attention and positive feedback to even exist day-to-day!" If someone cannot even feel good about himself/herself and content in life in the early, exciting part of a relationship without affirmations, validation, and compliments from multiple sources, then sh$t is gonna get really real really fast.

Just my opinion.

Is there hope for that person? He/she is clearly a black hole of insecurity and need, and it's going to take months (if not years)  of intensive IC to get to the heart of A. why this person feels this huge need for the attention, and B. why the attention they crave is romantic/sexual instead of career or goal oriented, for example. This IS NOT something that a WS can just exist without--clearly, so without their massive commitment to IC, I think you can expect the "habit" to come back.

Again, just my $0.02.

But her constant need for your affirmations and her choosing someone who does not easily fawn over people (she absolutely CHOSE you knowing you lacked the natural inclination to shower her with validation) suggests some serious FOO she is up against. Common theory is that we marry that which we struggled against when younger so that we can get it right. Other experts agree but feel we marry this type because it is our normal.

Her cheating has nothing to do with the AP or the sex. I mean, come on! She just married you! It is the need to be told and shown that she is amazing that she can't live without. For insecure people, long-term relationships do not have nearly enough bling to fill this black hole of sadness we feel about who we are.

She has a lot of work to do. Without it, I think you are in for a lot more hurt.

Again, just my opinion. You asked.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:03 PM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

Jello, she's hoovering you. Some (most) cheaters never stop lying to themselves. I'm not saying it never happens, it's just not that common. It also doesn't do much to "fix" what they've fucked up. You'll still need to deal with the emotional fallout of her betrayal.

Correct me if I'm wrong on your situation:

No kids (lucky bastard)

Short term marriage in CA (unlikely alimony unless you hit 10yrs)

She cheated for 1/3 of your marriage

You are young (again, lucky bastard)

You are in the group that can make a clean break and you are young enough to still have a large dating pool of women without a ton of baggage. Take it from an old(er) guy, it can be much worse dude. Lifelong alimony, child support and shared custody, step parents, tied to the woman that betrayed you forever - it can be much worse. R is very hard under the best of circumstances. Have you considered all of your options?

my WH does that convoluted word salad don't blame me I had the best of intentions BS. its 100% selfish and self serving.

I hear you that she doesn't want the marriage to end, but those types of responses are only intended to make her look how she wants to be seen, fuck reality. its pretty damn self centered to not only respond that way(avoiding a direct answer and apology), but also to think you might be dumb enough to buy it and somehow suspend reality.

my WH and I would start with one disagreement and then from his circular responses end up with 4 hot fights going at once. complete convolution.

I kept pointing out the BS and eventually he had to start admitting when it was all impression management and attempts to manipulate on his part, and that it just wasn't working!!!

things have gotten soooo much better with that. I would say over a 6-8 month period of me being aware and saying when it happened, he started to admit when he wasn't genuinely addressing what I brought up/asked.

Im sorry you are going through this

A sad little story.

A woman married into my family. This was after they had broken up for a year due to, you guessed it, cheating--her cheating. So they are married about 5 years and she keeps getting fired from jobs. Hmm, but ok. Then my relative finds loving texts to another guy. They get into MC. A few years go by--more lost jobs, and now several lost friends as well. During this time I go to a party at their house. She is with her family and they are drunk. She is sitting on her dad's lap, rubbing and kissing his bald head affectionately--too affectionately. He had one hand on her butt and one on her knee. Her family, mom included, wasn't batting an eye. Omg.

Soon my relative catches this W cheating again and divorces her. During the divorce, neighbors come by to express condolences and add, "I am sorry I cut off our friendship, but she hit on my husband." He sees people from her former work places. "Yes, she was fired for hitting on the boss." He told me that over the course of a year, he heard something similar from about 20 people.

My poor relative.

That sad, damaged woman.

I imagine a little girl who was sexually and emotionally abused by her father and a family that either looked away or shamed her for it, and I get it now. She knew no other way but her sexuality to get affirmation and validation, and she needed a lot of it to counter her overwhelming shame and self-loathing.

This is NOT your W's situation--of course, but I wanted to remind you that hurt people hurt people. They often hurt many people. They are not safe. You cannot love them back to health. They have to do it all themselves, and they have to work hard for a long time. The real question is, will your W do what it takes to fix herself?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:28 PM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

While your pain must be immense, real change, the kind that takes work and is lasting is self evident. You won't need to ask about it, you'll see it.

The way you describe it, it does sound not as genuine as it could be. What she did was a terrible long term extremely invasive (to your marriage). To justify or explain away anything you know to be true (the love declaratins etc.) is just pouring salt into the wound.

I think it's fair that you put out expectations, including what are deal breakers. I would recommend that you identify her methods of twisting the truth and read up on how to stop it (deflection, word salad, etc.) because that messes with your head and is disrespectful.

I would recommend (for your sanity) watching hg wells on you tube - two videos - perfect sense and word salad.

If she wants to save this marriage, she will voluntarily do the work, talk to you, etc. She will own her "shit" without you asking. You will see the work and the change for yourself. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Show her where the lake is and let her decide if the walk is worth it (or don't).

Well, it's a tough case.

On the one hand you have a wife who fell in love with another man and their betrayal lasted for a while.

Now that their betrayal is in the light she wants you to stay and seems to have extraordinary issues with self esteem.

Do you stay or do you go?

If you want to salvage the relationship, she will need extensive therapy- and not from some MC, but probably a PhD shrink. You can help her thru it, if you choose.

Or you can decide to make a clean break of things and just call it quits.

There is no right or wrong answer- it's up to you and what you want your life to look like in 5 years.

I wish you well.

smokenfire- hg wells on youtube? is that a users name on youtube or is the content taken from hg wells writing?

I just did a quick search and didn't come up with any great matches. but would like to check out the videos.

The channel name is HG Wells, he's a self confessed narcissists.

Those two videos are stunning. Especially word salad. That was my freaking life for TWENTY FIVE years.

Unreal.

I am sorry you are here, Jello. I know you came for the wayward's perspective, but I feel compelled to show you mine.

I was in a similar situation to yours many years ago--a relatively short marriage, no kids, and a WW who fell head over heels for some lowlife scumbag. Brought him into my house, the whole mess.

I was the white knight who saved her from this scumbag, and she became incredibly regretful when she finally saw that I was done and she was losing me. We healed from this affair the wrong way. She never *quite* took enough responsibility, and still blamed the state of our marriage, said "she felt hopeless" once she made one mistake, etc.

I thought we recovered and were happy--but she had several other affairs (some INCREDIBLY well hidden because she knew I was looking for warning signs), culminating in one that lasted the duration of her pregnancy and has--as others have said--resulted in a vastly more complicated situation.

I am not telling you to leave or stay. But if you do stay, do not sacrifice yourself to do so. Your feelings are real. You may be codependent (I am) and need to work through that. She is clearly, if not a love/relationship/sex addict, then an attention/validation addict and that is incredibly dangerous if unchecked. If you martyr yourself and take too much of this burden, it is almost a guarantee that she will not see the true depths of her brokenness and will repeat her mistakes.

Do not take more than your share of this responsibility. Do not be afraid to walk away, to force her to see the results of her actions. Honor yourself and your feelings in this. You owe her no responsibility, and the more noble gesture in this case is to be strong and allow her to face her demons instead of trying to fend them off yourself.

[This message edited by TwiceWounded at 6:14 PM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

^^^ What TwiceWounded said. All of it.

So sorry.

I know you want to fix it Jello because you are HERE! But it has to be her, all her.

smokenfire- thank you so much, appreciate it!

It sounds like she needs some serious IC with someone that has experience in this exact thing. Is she doing IC?

Honestly, I think it would be better to divorce your cheater than try and salvage some sort of marriage out of this mess.

But, I'll always be pro-divorce if you don't have kids. Several years down the road maybe she slips and cheats again, but now you have 2 kids at home you adore, you will be banging your head against the wall for not getting out while you could have made a clean break. You are young, you're only 3 years in the marriage hole, there are plenty of trust worthy women out there that will love and respect you and not cheat on you.

Our first instinct is to fight, but sometimes it best to accept it, take your losses and move on while they are still minimal. Infidelity is the toughest thing to get past in a marriage and its always an uphill struggle.

I think she loves you, but as more a strong, silent type of father figure. Does she have father issues? She may have seen you as her father, and she as the teenage daughter was doing the rebellious things with her bad boy boy-friend.

She was able to cake eat, but now may lose both pieces of cake and this is causing the panic attack.

She emasculated you and is now talking about how she can heal herself so she can be a safe spouse for you. She needs to understand that your healing has to come first and that she must commit herself totally to that or she loses you forever (if she already hasn't).

I'm an old coach. In sports terminology, she seems to be the type of player that likes to steal second base. You in this case, are first base. She thought that she could always tag up on first base, her safe place, and then go do the risky stuff, and when threatened could go back and be safe on first....she may always look at you this way and unfortunately, she may always be looking to steal second base.

[This message edited by skerzoid at 6:10 PM, August 9th (Wednesday)]