SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I see it juuuuust a bit differently.

For us it was more of a which came first, the chicken or the egg.

For me, when I was denied sex for whatever the excuse of the day was, I refused to give her what she needed, appreciation, help, support, compliments, attention, respect and any other thing that a good hubby is supposed to give to their wife and vice versa.

For her, it was just the opposite. If I gave her what she needed from me (see above) then she was more willing to give me what I wanted and needed.

SOOOOOO which comes first? I think the answer to that question is neither. IMO the answer is communication, understanding each other and wanting to meet each other's needs, simultaneously.

But when both parties are stubborn as mules (us) and communication is basically nonexistent then neither gets what they want or need and neither party will give in to the other unless the other gives in first. EGAD what a mess that creates. Are we behaving like children or what? Yes we both were.

And then it happens. Spats over the stupidest things, no communication at all. The result? Both husband and wife lose .

At least that's how it was for us.

AND the saddest part of it all. We have ALWAYS been sexually compatible from the very first time we were together. Now we look back and shake our heads at how stupid we were and how many years we wasted that could have been so much more for both of us.

But we're learning. She's still more stubborn than I though. But that's just because she's a natural redhead and as infuriating as she can be at times (not me, her) I still love her to death.

but could I fake sexual desire? No. And he could sense that and took it personally and started initiating less. It was a vicious cycle.

This is exactly the dynamic in our marriage.

I can say that my wife is happiest when she is getting intimate physical affection from me on a regular basis.

Her libido is a bit higher than mine, but I work very hard to keep up with her, simply because it is a very important part of our M.

Its relieves stress and eases the rough spots, strengthening our bond.

I don't think that anyone...especially here would see withholding sex as a excuse for cheating...

And yeah, i agree that its all about communication both partners need to give to the relationship for it to work.

At some point, someone in the relationship has to step up and bring up the hard discussion about this...

If my partner came to me and said that i needed to help out more around the house, or do some other kind of chores or put more effort into this or that for her to feel more connected, attracted etc to me then i could accept that and work on that.....If i worked on and made some changes towards that and she still was not sexually interested in me then i would see it as a sign that she just is not interested in me and i would leave....

I have always had a strong sex drive. I have to admit that since my wife's affair my sex drive has diminished somewhat.

I can relate to one of the posts here that says lack of sex makes a man feel alone and rejected.

My wife used the excuse that she was worried about getting pregnant and the pill made her very nauseous. I volunteered to get a vasectomy.

She had sex with her affair partner for the first time during the period I was healing from the vasectomy. Literally about a month after the procedure. I can't describe the mindfuck that does to a guy. I literally felt castrated physically and psychologically. Rejection doesn't describe the emotion.

I agree completely with Prissy4life. Not only helping with the crap of life, but for most women, sex starts over cereal in the morning and progresses through the day. For me, I need to feel important to my H and loved by him and therefore I am attracted to him and interested. You can't be snippy and demanding all day and then expect me to jump in bed and "enjoy" it so that you get your ego stroke. Not to mention how many men become extremely lazy in bed and don't even attempt to actually satisfy the woman. If she does, or seems to, they're happy with that.

That was the way it was for me. And then when I wasn't enthusiastically jumping all over that routine, his little feelings were hurt.

He felt rejected about the sex, but I felt rejected ALL the fucking time. So he cheated.

Seems fair, right?

Men, more than women, are prone to view their self-esteem through their sexuality. So if sex isn’t happening, self-esteem in most men plummets…and they then become vulnerable to someone else…someone who boosts their self-esteem by seeing them as vital, sexual, desirable beings.

This is . . . .interesting. I think men also get a lot of self-esteem through their education/earning capacity. No?

So, what are women prone to viewing their self-esteem through mostly? Beauty and youth?

Also, about becoming vulnerable to someone else who boosts their self-esteem by seeing them as vital, sexual and desirable. Will just anyone (female) do for this? Someone who comes onto this “sex isn’t happening guy” can be anyone? Younger, older, married, single, attractive, heavy? So long as they view the guy as sexually desirable?

I see many younger women flatter and go after (marry) much older$ with sex and compliments. But in the long run, the women eventually leave or cheat, (you know the cliché) so then does the guys self-esteem go down again?

Just curious.

From my perspective, I think some of the conversation has veered from what was the original discussion of the post. So to clarify my position as stated earlier...

1. The article was referencing sexless marriages. 10 times a year...that's once every 5 weeks. And even at that I still think that's a very generous definition for the lack of physical. (5 weeks can be a REALLY long time!)

2. Some partners are just simply not deserving of your vulnerability. Personality disordered, sex addicts - there is NO intimacy at all in those relationships. Even with alcohol or drug addicts I don't think a partner need engage in physical relations if their partner is under the influence at the time.

3. Lack of sex is not a justification for an affair. As an other poster has stated, it IS a justification for a divorce.

4. By the time a rejected partner reaches this level of being sexless in their marriage, they have tried so much to change the situation by being better accommodating of the reasons the rejecting partner gives. I tried addressing every reason under the sun my partner gave...and not one of them made a damn bit of difference. Not one.

And this is where my disagreement with some of the comments comes in. Sex is a foundational part of a marriage. It not only is the basis of the marriage but it is also what creates the bond...that piece that keeps you together and makes you want to continue to try to meet the needs of your partner. It is what separates this particular relationship from all other relationships in your life. There are many places you can get support, encouragement, validation...but there is only one place that you can get the unique intimacy and even physical need met that comes with sex....and the rejecting partner holds all the power of that. While I understand the frustration that comes with not being connected in other ways or not having the support to carry out the household and familial duties, how can the withholding of the one unique aspect of the marriage be even a fair comparison?? I don't even understand how those two things can be discussed within the same context. You can talk with friends, you can excel in your job. Hell, you can get a housekeeper or a nanny. But your spouse is not to get a lover. It is the ultimate imbalance of power within the relationship...and that doesn't make for the ideal ground for negotiating needs.

This is why sex was the last thing to go in my first marriage (and that was because *I* stopped). My needs for partnership and feeling loved had long not been met...and by the time the sex stopped it was because I was no longer invested in the marriage. But that was because I recognized that he was never going to meet those other needs I had...and the marriage was the casualty of that. The cessation of the sex was nothing more than demonstrative of that death.

If you're no longer choosing to have sex with your partner - other than due to the recovery from the infidelity - then release your partner from the bonds of the marriage. But if not getting your needs met is not reason enough to end the marriage covenant then - IMHO - it's not justification to deny them sex either.

** I use the word "marriage" to represent the vow of monogamy - not necessarily the relationship as a whole.

We agree to disagree.

I do not want any person to believe that sex is a true connection or evidence of intimacy.

If a person can be "released" from physical monogamy...why not emotional monogamy?

Have an EA. Someone to help with kids, tell your beautiful, meet your emotional needs. and come home to have sex with your partner. It will smooth out the rough edges and make you vulnerable.

You no longer burdened with having to fulfill the needs of your partner. And your partner gets sex.

So is the goal an authentic marriage where BOTH partners needs are met with grace, love, respect and mutual sacrifice...

Or sex?

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 10:59 PM, August 10th (Thursday)]

What I am saying, prissy, is that sex is the BOND...it is the piece that continually brings you to one of the most vulnerable places FOR connection. It's the willingness to be vulnerable - truly vulnerable, not just laying there in the acquiescence position - that sets the stage for connection.

But, saying this gently, you're not going to see it that way when your perspective is "climb[ing] on the cross".

In that regard and if you were my close girlfriend, asking me for advice, I would emphatically say - don't do it. From that perspective it is only going to make you MORE resentful. I'm not judging you...I'm simply offering a different viewpoint. I have no attachment to "make you see" - or anyone else for that matter. - And I appreciate the discussion. It gives me opportunity for my own clarity on this topic that has been very close and painful to my heart.

ETA: We're both on point tonight! I'll add more when I can really read and think about your additions.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 11:12 PM, August 10th (Thursday)]

And to add..

I dated my husband for a yr before having sex with him. Thats where our bond was created. The effort to connect, the level of intimacy we shared was FAR greater then..then now.

How can u compare a conversation with my girlfriends.. To talking to him about what our future children would look like? Or how our wedding would be? Or holding him at the death of his grandmother? Or telling him about how scared I was when my parents divorced? Or laughing at our awkward childhood picks together?

I learned about my husband and best friend during the year.. And didn't have sex.

We created a level of intimacy that was MORE than sex. Then got married...got in a rut and scheduled sex. We did it. Enjoyed it...but wasn't connected. Because when we were scared, lonely, hurt...we didn't talk because the "Crap" of life still has to happen. Kids, house, work. But sex happened. Regularly.

And our marriage suffered.

Singling out sex as if it the ONLY part of marriage that is unique and intimate does a great disservice to marriage.

No I can't have the same conversation with my friends as my husband.

No I don't feel the same sense of accomplishment at my job as I felt being his wife.

Thats why infidelity crushes the spouse..the pride we take in our marriage is astronomical. People get new jobs ALL the time and are unfazed. I don't know anyone who went thru a divorce/break up without scares.

But the maid...I will take that. And through in a chauffeur to drive the kids around. 😂

This is a painful post to read. The feelings of rejection and the. The added insult of an affair and more frequency of sex with her AP and to be told she was more attracted to him than me. I can't even begin to put in words what it's been like to build up my self esteem.

My wife and I have made huge strides in reconciliation but this elephant in the room concerning sex and the apparent complete disregard by my wife in terms of acknowledging sex and my needs is just another painful reminder and rejection. Early on my wife asked "what can I do to make up for this (the affair)? I'm so sorry". I responded "fuck my brains out". That isn't the answer obviously but it certainly holds some water and feeling like you've reclaimed some since of self esteem and what you thought was the gift of marriage and a promise to keep between you and your spouse.

I absolutely hate that my behavior and words ever made my wife question my love for her. I hate that she was vulnerable to someone else's attention and attraction. I hate that she gave into her selfishness and attempted to meet her needs without including me as her friend and partner.

Good heavens this is tough work to rebound from for a couple.

[This message edited by musicandwine at 11:38 PM, August 10th (Thursday)]

Prissy - I really hate that you edited out some of your key points in your last post because I think you really gave a voice to what so many people feel in your position. I sincerely remember feeling that way. And its been a totally different perspective to be where I am now. It's caused me to have to do a lot of introspection. (But I totally understand editing posts. It's hard to be sure we are coming across as we intend when in the written word and in such an emotionally charged environment.)

With that being said, I'm not sure we are actually disagreeing. In fact, I actually agree with every single component of this very last post. And I'm so very sorry to see you experience infidelity in light of such an intimate relationship. Many of us here experience it because of not having a true intimate relationship...not in light of it - so I'm sure that carries a very special pain and sense of loss in the betrayal.

I'm not suggesting sex is a substitute for deeper intimacy. Hell...I'm not even really clear that sex itself IS intimacy. What I AM suggesting is that sex is a conduit to intimacy...a way to keep that channel open - even when it doesn't feel like anything was flowing through it.

In this current relationship, when my pain of the relationship centered around the feelings of inadequacy and rejection that I felt with the (lack of) sex, there was no other place for intimacy to flow. It was easy to not become vulnerable when I reached a certain level of hurt...and there was nothing that kept me bonded to him other than the actual vow I had made (which was a matter of my own integrity). Had we both agreed to the sex frequency - or even no sex - then I probably wouldn't have experienced it as such. But it was my powerlessness to bring about a change and his unwillingness/indifference toward meeting my needs.

In fact, as I'm going over it now, I clearly can see that his stance actually truly did shut down intimacy from me - because I had to hold myself back (in all the other ways that you described) to keep from feeling the rejection from the lack of sex. It wasn't just not having it...it was withholding it in response to his withholding.

As far as the EA - I understand your point. The difference in that and a close girlfriend that you share much with is that an EA has the unique sexual chemistry that often accompanies a marital relationship. It just hasn't progressed to the physical yet due to time, opportunity or a perceived self-integrity. Even so, it carries the seed of dishonestly like any affair and that is what is ultimately the most damaging.

What I AM suggesting is that sex is a conduit to intimacy...a way to keep that channel open - even when it doesn't feel like anything was flowing through it.

I completely get this...we can be intimate...certain looks, a gentle caress, putting my arms around her middle while she does he makeup, watching her sleep next to me...intimacy without sexual contact, but our familiarity that allows some of these is maintained with sexual intimacy at times.

I so agree with Prissy.

Articles and assumptions like this truly piss me off. As if most woman avoid sex to punish..no. We avoid sex because it another damn thing to do on the long list of things we have to do. We avoid sex because we don't feel connected. We avoid sex because if you can't connect with me any of the other MILLION times during the day I need support, comfort and love...why in the hell would I want to connect with you want to slide in my body?

When my H started his disgusting ONS's I was having severe uterine issues, I was running a farm (mostly by myself), helping him with his business, raising 4 kids, etc.. you get the point. I fell into bed at nights sometimes with muscles shaking with exhaustion.

He worked hard too but honestly I felt abandoned when it came to the running of the house, the kids, etc.. And so yes, sex takes a back seat simply because there is no physical energy left! He could have helped more, lightened the load, given me a short massage...but mostly I wanted to talk to him again, to have him be engaged more in my life and me in his. But he chose depression and sluts to fill that "need".

This article gave me insight but it also pissed me off. Intimacy and sex are not the same thing! Sex CAN be intimate and that is what is needed in a marriage, but often times it is not because the intimacy needs to come BEFORE the sex. JMHO

Truthsetmefree....

I love that this conversation is giving us so much to think about.

I dont that sex is a conduit. I think in relationship sex can become a bandaid.

Because emphasis on sex as the bond..it gives the false impression of closeness.it can also give both persons a false sense that they are doing the work needed to build a healthy relationship

I see sex as the RESULT of a healthy connection. They healthy connection allows us to vulnerable even when its scary. It allows us to take the leap even when we are scares. The healthy connection reminds of the good/supportive times through the hard times. That healthy connection shows a husband that his wife is stressed to the max...and he steps in to do bed time. The wife sees the husband working extra shifts to help the family and is tired. We see the work and sacrifice our partner is doing for us...and feel the conneaction.

As a woman with kids (15, 11 and 8) with a house and a dog...and kids in JROTC, boy scouts, cub scouts, girl scouts, football and dance...we are always on the go.

Sexy is my husband letting me sleep 15 extra minutes my cooking kids breakfast.

I in turn sending kissy face text messages all day.

We text/talk about the news, jokes, our imaginary lotto winnings.

We get home...deal with life. Homework, kids activities and he tells kids to clean. He doles out consequences for those who don't.

Bedtime. He plays video games and I read. He comes to bed...to hold me. Not happening dude...we are getting in on. Lol

Why? I'm tired. He's tired. House is wreck, 11 year old forgot a project, 15 yr old mouthed off, dog is whining to be let out and we both have early days tomorrow.

Because I have felt connected to him ALL day in ALL parts of who I am. The mom in me was supported by the dad in him.

The partner in my marriage helped run our household by holding our kids responsible and not making me the bad guy.

The best friend in my marriage agreed that we should buy an island instead of the bones of the elephant man with our imaginary lotto winnings

The woman in me felt taken care of because I got 15 extra minutes with my thoughts that morning. I got cute flirty texts all day.

The thinker in me was challenged when we talked about politics.

The person in me was given time to decompress, enerfize and nurture myself when I was given time to read alone.

So when my husband comes to bed...he has nurtured and loved every aspect of me. He has been intimate with all parts of me at different parts of the day. And that makes me feel connected...and then I want to physically connexted.

I remember those days on the days he does he doesn't give me 15 mins alone...or forgets to take out the trash or doesn't follow through on consequences because he has worked hard at cultivating our intimacy...not just having sex with me

Unfortunately many Low Libido people are unable or unwilling to acknowledge there is a problem. They lack empathy and compassion, some would even go so far as to call them Narzisst.

As if most woman avoid sex to punish..no. We avoid sex because it another damn thing to do on the long list of things we have to do. We avoid sex because we don't feel connected. We avoid sex because if you can't connect with me any of the other MILLION times during the day I need support, comfort and love...why in the hell would I want to connect with you want to slide in my body?

Especially when they are also avoiding emotional intimacy and only want sex occasionally.

Sex softens those hard edges. But it has to be seen as that. As a chance to come back to each other, connect outside of all those daily things...and in a way that you don't do in any other relationships in your life. It is a nurturing of the very bond itself.

Makes sex with the WS who choose Adultery very difficult. Especially when they were also choosing masturbation, turned you down repeatedly for just a fuck (while they were also calling their adultery co-conspirator to fuck in your actual bed), and very rarely wanted to use you as a masturbatory hole. I didn't seek sex and relief outside, I was a loving wife who thought she was married to a man with a low sex drive. Turns out I was married to a selfish ass hole who pursued his addiction and adultery co-conspirator instead of his wife.

And yes the sex was infrequent from the beginning of the marriage and just got less and less frequent as kids arrived and I was left to get them to their school, events, etc.

Now it's on hold, while his actions establish that he wants to be in a new marriage and I really matter to him, and that love is a choice and a verb. His previous actions were anything but love, and he wasted that word on his adultery co-conspirator.

Articles like this send the message to men that sex is intimacy as long as their is bond. While putting the responsibility on women to stay physically engaged while ignoring their own emotional & mental needs. As if sex fulfills those needs for her.

It also makes it seems as if sex is the beginning of the bond...when in most cases sex is the END result of a nurturing, caring healthy relationship between 2 adults who put their partner needs first

.

^^Yes Prissy

Typically, for women emotional connection leads to sexual desire and connection . For men, sexual connection typically leads to emotional desire and connection. In my opinion, it is both parties balancing and paying attention to these needs that leads to higher marital satisfaction. I have a high sex drive even when the emotional stuff isn't perfect, but when I feel really emotionally connected, my libido is super high.

[This message edited by heartneedsglue at 8:31 AM, August 11th (Friday)]